Why must the ability to heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?

[Ratajack]

Pure DPS means that DPS is ALL you can do. Whether or not you think the heals are lousy or inefficient does not negate the fact that you CAN heal, and are therefore NOT pure DPS.

 

If you want to go down the road of a DPS spec loses the ability to heal, then I can see buffing the DPS output.

 

 

 

Then there has never been a tank on any mmo ever. Because tanks can dps too, just very very poorly.

 

 

Where did I say ANYTHING about tanks?

[Hockaday]

Where did I say ANYTHING about tanks?

 

I suggest reading your own posts.

[Ratajack]

I suggest reading your own posts.

 

As far as I know, I made two posts in this thread before your comment about tanks. They were:

 

There are NO purely DPS classes that have the ability to heal. Having the ability to heal, by it's very nature, makes that class a hybrid.

 

You may spec into DPS, but as long as you have the ability to heal, you are NOT purely DPS and so should not have top notch DPS, or even within 5%.

 

 

 

Pure DPS means that DPS is ALL you can do. Whether or not you think the heals are lousy or inefficient does not negate the fact that you CAN heal, and are therefore NOT pure DPS.

 

If you want to go down the road of a DPS spec loses the ability to heal, then I can see buffing the DPS output.

 

As I asked before, where did I say ANYTHING about tanks?

[Hockaday]

smh...

 

Ok, nice and slow. If a class has a healing spell (using spell here, you'll see why), that does not mean they're hybrid. If they lack the -ability- to heal. If we use your logic, that if you have a certain kind of spell, that deviates from your roll, you are a hybrid. That would mean, that no tank ever has been a tank. Tanks have dps spells, but not the ability to dps.

 

Or, another route, Jug dps have taunts, but they don't have the ability to tank (certain situations withstanding...i've had marauders tank). In this game, spec = roll. Sorcerers cannot use their heals, at all, due to cast times. Making them quite literally worthless. What is a hybrid, where you can only do one thing?

 

So long and short, just because a class has a spell, does not mean they're a hybrid. On SW:TOR, your spec is either pure or not pure. Tanks have dps spells, but can't dps, in your eyes tanks are hybrid.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Hockaday

[mmjarec]

I am not sure everyone agrees with this statement both sides seemed to agree the DPS/ heal classes and tank/DPS classes are by their nature hybrids when they go DPS because both retain aspects of their other spec, healing for some and tanking for others. The arguement seems to be two parts

 

One group says all DPS builds should do relatively similar damage, one group seems to think the pure should do defineably more.

 

One groups says there is a big gap between the damage right now, another groups disagrees with that.

 

The fact is whether we call them hybrids or oranges it does not matter, I think what matters is the relative dps they do compared to the apples.

 

Hybrid classes are not about fillable roles they are about abilities. A hybrid class is one class that has the abilities of another class if there was a class that could tank like jug and heal like sorc that would be a hybrid. Roles habe nothing to do wit it unless you are redefining the meaning for this game only

[hadoken]

You guys are all getting lost in definitions now and completely confusing the actual issue.

[mmjarec]

smh...

 

Ok, nice and slow. If a class has a healing spell (using spell here, you'll see why), that does not mean they're hybrid. If they lack the -ability- to heal. If we use your logic, that if you have a certain kind of spell, that deviates from your roll, you are a hybrid. That would mean, that no tank ever has been a tank. Tanks have dps spells, but not the ability to dps.

 

Or, another route, Jug dps have taunts, but they don't have the ability to tank (certain situations withstanding...i've had marauders tank). In this game, spec = roll. Sorcerers cannot use their heals, at all, due to cast times. Making them quite literally worthless. What is a hybrid, where you can only do one thing?

 

So long and short, just because a class has a spell, does not mean they're a hybrid. On SW:TOR, your spec is either pure or not pure. Tanks have dps spells, but can't dps, in your eyes tanks are hybrid.

 

Bcuz you choose not to heal and the say you cant doesnt meam you are a hubrid you cAn use it anytime. Tanks are suppsed to tank but accomplish it via abilities strange how you make no sense

[pauljc]

If Bioware made healing useless for a DPS Sorc and gave us a group buff like Marauders and Snipers have while making our DPS close to equal I would be extremely happy with that

 

Healing is already useless for a DPS sorc, that's why the "heal to full" comment was so unbelievably dumb that it spawned a meme. It's costs a lot of force and has to be hard-casted (and is super-easily interrupted) for not a lot of healing (if you aren't specced into it). Nobody who has actually played a sorc in PvP more than once or twice can seriously consider "just take a break from the fight and use Dark Infusion" to be a legit survival strategy.

[Hockaday]

Bcuz you choose not to heal and the say you cant doesnt meam you are a hubrid you cAn use it anytime. Tanks are suppsed to tank but accomplish it via abilities strange how you make no sense

 

Did something happen? You were typing much better in your other threads. It pains me to read the above...so I won't. Hope all is ok.

[mmjarec]

Did something happen? You were typing much better in your other threads. It pains me to read the above...so I won't. Hope all is ok.

 

Ou noes you cant heal and uber dos simultaneously must be gimp! Get real. So you want mor than a downtime or time elongation or run away heal. Its more than others have if you dont like it spec heals or change class yu cant expect to heal and habe top dps. You can bubble and heal it prolongs the fight tjats wjy you use dots. Seems like you refuse to play your class as designed

[DarkIntelligence]

You guys are all getting lost in definitions now and completely confusing the actual issue.

 

If by "you guys" you mean mmjarec, then yes. The rest of us know exactly what we are talking about and are simply trying to explain it to him but he keeps getting lost and confuses the issue.

 

Hopefully though not all is in vain because obviously the developers also fail to see the issue and maybe if any of them bother to read this they might get it too...

[Serpieri]

In Progression Raids, you bring the best - you don't bring subpar classes. If a DPS class it not able to compete with another DPS class - then that class is done. Same applies to tanking and healing. Hybrid tax has no place in this game, if you're worried that the class off spec is going to be too strong in healing and tanking while dpsing in pvp - here is an easy fix. As you choose talents in each tree - they have a negative effect. For example a talent that enhances a dps ability would hinder a tanking ability or heal ability to the point that spending a GCD to heal or taunt would be so small that it would detrimental to use. Edited August 29, 2013 by Serpieri

[mmjarec]

In Progression Raids, you bring the best - you don't bring subpar classes. If a DPS class it not able to compete with another DPS class - then that class is done. Same applies to tanking and healing. Hybrid tax has no place in this game, if you're worried that the class off spec is going to be too strong in healing and tanking while dpsing in pvp - here is an easy fix. As you choose talents in each tree - they have a negative effect. For example a talent that enhances a dps ability would hinder a tanking ability or heal ability to the point that spending a GCD to heal or taunt would be so small that it would detrimental to use.

 

Then why do dps sins get taken when they are hundreds less dps on a parse. Ive offhealed and saved wipes as dps sorc so obviously its not all about dps

[Ratajack]

In Progression Raids, you bring the best - you don't bring subpar classes. If a DPS class it not able to compete with another DPS class - then that class is done. Same applies to tanking and healing. Hybrid tax has no place in this game, if you're worried that the class off spec is going to be too strong in healing and tanking while dpsing in pvp - here is an easy fix. As you choose talents in each tree - they have a negative effect. For example a talent that enhances a dps ability would hinder a tanking ability or heal ability to the point that spending a GCD to heal or taunt would be so small that it would detrimental to use.

 

If players want the DPS specs to be "up to par", then the DPS specs should completely lose the ability to heal in any way, shape or form. Whether or not a player uses the healing abilities they have does not negate the fact that they DO have those abilities. Why should a sorcerer who can heal do as much or close to as much DPS as a sniper who can ONLY DPS and cannot heal?

 

The same would apply to tanking, although it is much harder to completely remove the ability to tank or offtank.

[Serpieri]

Then why do dps sins get taken when they are hundreds less dps on a parse. Ive offhealed and saved wipes as dps sorc so obviously its not all about dps

 

Hows your NM progression going with dps assassins and sorcs. Post your videos please.

[Serpieri]

If players want the DPS specs to be "up to par", then the DPS specs should completely lose the ability to heal in any way, shape or form. Whether or not a player uses the healing abilities they have does not negate the fact that they DO have those abilities. Why should a sorcerer who can heal do as much or close to as much DPS as a sniper who can ONLY DPS and cannot heal?

 

The same would apply to tanking, although it is much harder to completely remove the ability to tank or offtank.

 

Tie Taunts to stance - other abilities can also be made to work differently depending on the stance/cell used.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Serpieri

[Eitetsu]

Hows your NM progression going with dps assassins and sorcs. Post your videos please.

 

I'll second that request. It's hard enough with a GOOD melee class and 3 GOOD ranged classes. No one seriously\competitively runs assassin DPS as their melee for NiM. And there's a reason for that.

 

Don't knock Sorc DPS, though. I've seen great success with it. Their numbers for PvE are competitive.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Eitetsu

[Banegio]

If players want the DPS specs to be "up to par", then the DPS specs should completely lose the ability to heal in any way, shape or form. Whether or not a player uses the healing abilities they have does not negate the fact that they DO have those abilities. Why should a sorcerer who can heal do as much or close to as much DPS as a sniper who can ONLY DPS and cannot heal?

 

The same would apply to tanking, although it is much harder to completely remove the ability to tank or offtank.

 

I disagree with that. How do you balance bloodthirst then? Unspec-ed heal ability is more a utility ability than sustained output. It is closer to match/balance it against something like sniper shield than damage output.

 

Not sure I have missed any recent conversations from the dev. But I remember dev has said that they aim for all dps to be within 5-10% of each other. I believe the current perceived extreme unbalance of sniper and assassin are not intended.

 

And back to the original topic, I also believe there is no intention to make "heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS". Current dps charts don't seem to support that theory too.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Banegio

[DarkIntelligence]

And back to the original topic, I also believe there is no intention to make "heal as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS". Current dps charts don't seem to support that theory too.

 

Alas they do, just look at IceHawk's post on page 9 of this very thread, and that's just a sampling of the best, the less competitive it gets the wider the gap becomes, to where it approaches 20% on average. That's a far cry from the developers' promise of 5%-10% which no one would argue with to begin with.

[Hockaday]

In Progression Raids, you bring the best - you don't bring subpar classes. If a DPS class it not able to compete with another DPS class - then that class is done. Same applies to tanking and healing. Hybrid tax has no place in this game, if you're worried that the class off spec is going to be too strong in healing and tanking while dpsing in pvp - here is an easy fix. As you choose talents in each tree - they have a negative effect. For example a talent that enhances a dps ability would hinder a tanking ability or heal ability to the point that spending a GCD to heal or taunt would be so small that it would detrimental to use.

 

Or just do what EQ2 does, and have abilities have two different specs, PvE and PvP.

[Hockaday]

Ou noes you cant heal and uber dos simultaneously must be gimp! Get real. So you want mor than a downtime or time elongation or run away heal. Its more than others have if you dont like it spec heals or change class yu cant expect to heal and habe top dps. You can bubble and heal it prolongs the fight tjats wjy you use dots. Seems like you refuse to play your class as designed

 

...can someone translate this?

[Amera]

If players want the DPS specs to be "up to par", then the DPS specs should completely lose the ability to heal in any way, shape or form. Whether or not a player uses the healing abilities they have does not negate the fact that they DO have those abilities. Why should a sorcerer who can heal do as much or close to as much DPS as a sniper who can ONLY DPS and cannot heal?

 

The same would apply to tanking, although it is much harder to completely remove the ability to tank or offtank.

 

This is one of those largely meaningless absolutes that gets thrown around a lot. Just because someone has a green button to heal doesn't mean anything by itself. Having the raw capacity to heal or tank is irrelevant; it only matters if those are useful abilities in real situations on difficult encounters*. In all but a scant few situations, the answer to this is "no."

 

*I specify difficult encounters because that is the only place balance makes a discernible difference in pve or pvp. When everything is easy/noncompetitive, the magnifying glass gets very small.

[aeterno]

I think that if the DPS truly lacks it should be raised.

 

However I think that self heals being counted towards survivability is a valid way to look at things.

 

If cast time is the issue perhaps emulate the commandos solution, add a stack building mechanic that reduces the cast time of a heal to disturbance, making it instacast at full stack. Then again from a survivability standpoint that's shafting the commandos a bit considering all the other tools sorcs/sages have to get out of dodge at present. Queue the never ending spiral of placating buffs heh.

Edited August 29, 2013 by aeterno

[Hockaday]

I think that if the DPS truly lacks it should be raised.

 

However I think that self heals being counted towards survivability is a valid way to look at things.

 

If cast time is the issue perhaps emulate the commandos solution, add a stack building mechanic that reduces the cast time of a heal to disturbance, making it instacast at full stack. Then again from a survivability standpoint that's shafting the commandos a bit considering all the other tools sorcs/sages have to get out of dodge at present. Queue the never ending spiral of placating buffs heh.

 

If you play a sorc, you'll see how having heals is in no way a valid way of looking at things. it takes, now this is with out push back, 1.5 seconds to heal 2.7k, or 3 seconds to heal 4.6k. In almost every situation, this can't really be used as a CD. At the very best, it can be used to heal while flagged as being in combat. But not much else. And that's not a very good cd. Now, if it was instant, then sure.

 

Now, if they made it so a sorc could gain Wrath like procs for the heals...well, that is still a problem...but you get where I'm going.

[g_land]

Dont you think the ones at the bottom of the parse chart that cant heal deserve attention first since they are obviously in worse shape than the class you dont play but know everything about oddly enough. You just reinforce the societal mindset of me first im the only one that matters. Your assertion that yu should be able to heal better and dps more is like an assassin in tank spec expecting to tank and top the dps parse. Not gonna happen

 

For crying out loud, the argument is that the ability to do a secondary function should not be a gimp to the function which a players decides to do. Stop yelling at people and think for half a second, take the title of the thread and replace "heal" with "tank;" its the same fundamental question that is being argued. Fact is that you actually agree with this thread but that you don't understand you agree with it. Or you are just trolling; if option two is the case, please stop. I can't continue reading your posts, the typos are giving me a headache.

Edited August 29, 2013 by g_land