KBN's Guide to Combat Spec (or: how to sentinel tank)

[iesnbold]

Awesome guide that greatly helped me boost my Carnage DPS.

 

I have two questions though, and they're both tied with the same thing : the Blade Rush buff.

 

My first question is, do you keep track of the BR buff ?

 

During the filler phase, I often find myself keeping track of this buff and using other abilities than BR only when I'm sure the buff will not disappear. This goes for Cauterize and Master Strike basically. I also noticed it when I am lucky enough to be able to use both MS and BS under Precision buff without delaying one of them. It's a really good damaging window, but it also means the disparition of the BR buff, delaying HoJ proc or just DPS loss by not proccing Ataru strike enough. Am I wrong to worry about it ?

 

The second question is the same a the first one, but during the execute part of an encounter.

 

I guess Dispatch should be used on CD, but doing that, we use BR way less, and there goes the uptime of the BR buff, which means it's way harder to proc both OA and HoJ. It's frustrating because I feel like Combat rotation is very precise at every time, but during the execute phase, throwing Dispatch in the rotation, I feel like I'm just clicking buttons and not doing an optimal rotation anymore.

[Memo-]

Just a quick question (just trivia more than a real concern) about Dispatch:

 

The tooltip lists it as energy damage, but isn't it still a melee attack and not Force? But would I be correct in assuming that it doesn't proc Ataru Form?

[LeDri]

Just a quick question (just trivia more than a real concern) about Dispatch:

 

The tooltip lists it as energy damage, but isn't it still a melee attack and not Force? But would I be correct in assuming that it doesn't proc Ataru Form?

 

Dispatch is a Melee attack. It *should* be able to proc Ataru Form.

[Castuteus]

I just have a quick question about PS and using BS and MS during the window. While leveling my combat Sent I have noticed that I can use PS then use MS right after and since PS doesn't cause a GCD window I can use BS right after and not lose any damage for either. Now I want to know, is it mandatory to use BS right after PS? I see no reason other than allowing more time for OA to proc again.

[HundredBears]

The problem with delaying BS isn't that it takes longer for OA to proc, it's the timing of the second PS window. As it is, the cooldown on BS comes up just in time for it to be the last attack in that window, so delaying it two GCDs in the first window means either missing it in the second (a big dps loss) or delaying the second by two GCDs (another dps loss and a chance to get the HoJ right before the first window next time, which is the worst thing that can happen in the rotation).

 

It is possible to do PS->MS->BS in the second window. There's some discussion about it a few pages back in the thread, and it looks like it's a slight dps increase. The optimal thing to do may even be Dispatch->PS->MS->BS. Since Disptach hits late in its animation, you can get it into the PS window with just enough time to fit in the BS at the end. Be warned though, this is a very tight timing; you have just over half a second where PS is early enough to buff Dispatch and late enough to still be up for BS.

Edited September 3, 2013 by HundredBears

[Leafy_Bug]

I would like to thank KBN again for making this. At first, I was really reluctant to dig into the spec because I found it boring compared to watchman. Now that my guild is slowly going into TFB NiM, I realised that the dreadguards would benefit more from a combat+watchman duo rather than watchman+watchman.

 

 

Yesterday before our raid, like in Uni, I printed this post out, don't tell anyone , and started jotting down things. I modified my gear, swapped my two initiative 31s for two adept when I play combat.

An example, of a break-down i did. I started at 2.5K DPS in 5 36 5 but after carefully perusing this thread, I reached at 2.9K DPS. Of course, I cannot feel my hands and my APM is a bit over 47 which is poor for combat.

 

 

In addition, I am a bit confused when random things start proc-ing or the lack of procs, especially in the opener. What is a combat sentinel supposed to when the stars do not align? Spamming bladerush can only take you so far.

[KeyboardNinja]

In addition, I am a bit confused when random things start proc-ing or the lack of procs, especially in the opener. What is a combat sentinel supposed to when the stars do not align? Spamming bladerush can only take you so far.

 

Mostly? Cry. Hand of Justice should be a 100% controlled proc outside of the opener. As long as you don't delay using HoJ by too long (i.e. you only inject a single GCD between PS windows), you will never have to worry about procing HoJ over a natural PS window. If you made a mistake on the previous PS window, you can improve your odds by ensuring that your last GCD before the natural PS cooldown is something like Twin Saber Throw, which can still proc Ataru (and thus HoJ), but the odds are pretty low.

 

In the opener, there are a couple things you can do. If you get HoJ procing on your Force Leap, you're basically SoL and you just have to move on without the first of the two PS windows. It sucks, but the odds of it happening are fairly low. HoJ can proc off of your first Zealous Strike, but if you're quick you can avert this. Basically, you just have to sneak your PS in before the Ataru hit from Zealous Strike. Mercifully, Ataru hits come fairly late in the GCD, so you can do this by hitting Zealous Strike > Precision Slash > Blade Rush in that order, with about 500ms between each one. It takes a bit of practice to get the timing down, but this basically removes the danger of getting Hand of Justice off of Zealous Strike and more than halves the odds of a premature proc in the opener.

 

Opportune Attack is really the major pain point in the rotation. There are times where you simply don't get the proc in time for Precision Slash. When that happens, you just move forward. Make sure that you have 8 Focus (rather than the 6-7 that suffices when you do have the proc) and then just do your thing. You can spam three Blade Rushes in the first window if you don't have Opportune Attack, but it's actually better (on average) to go ahead with the Blade Storm (unproc'd) in its standard position. Even without the auto-crit, Blade Storm hits harder than Blade Rush on average, and you're not wasting the CD since you still have enough time to get a second Blade Storm into the second window. Note that I haven't updated the guide for this bit of advice.

 

Overall, handling proc failure is part of playing Combat, and it takes a lot of practice to achieve. Practice, practice, practice. When dummy parsing, don't abort your parse if your opener prematurely procs. Keep going so you can get a feel for how to handle the situation. Experiment with delaying HoJ and see what happens in the next window (and the one after that). Know your Focus targets and when to hit them. You'll get it. :-)

[Karaya_One]

Dear All:

 

First, thanks again KBN for all the time you've spent compiling the guide and answering questions.

 

I have a few additional questions, however, that I was hoping you and anyone else might be willing to answer:

 

1) Is it still recommended to use a SA relic with a BA relic? If one of the other proc relics should now be used in the place of the BA relic, which dmg type should be used for Combat spec?

 

2) Do you use Masterstrike as soon as it comes off c/d * or do you wait until you can fit it into a PS window? Moreover, if one or two of the ticks of MS will fall outside of a PS window, do you still use it or do you wait so that you can get the full channel inside a PS window?

 

3) Is it recommended to pop Zen immediately upon getting 30 Centering or is it better to wait until entering a PS window?

 

4) Although I might have asked this before, what value do you use for the Ability Activation Queue Window? Although I usually am around 48 APM on parses, there are still times when abilities, or the transition between abilities, seem laggy.

 

Thanks, in advance for any insight or tips you might be willing to offer. As well, I apologize if the answers to my question were provided elsewhere in the thread and I merely overlooked them.

 

Regards,

 

*Provided the channel won't occur during a time when it is necessary to activate PS.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Karaya_One

[Ausgelebt]

1) Is it still recommended to use a SA relic with a BA relic? If one of the other proc relics should now be used in the place of the BA relic, which dmg type should be used for Combat spec?

 

I am using SA + Kinetic Tempest

 

2) Do you use Masterstrike as soon as it comes off c/d * or do you wait until you can fit it into a PS window? Moreover, if one or two of the ticks of MS will fall outside of a PS window, do you still use it or do you wait so that you can get the full channel inside a PS window?

I try to use MS in a PS window, best to use it with Zen+PS, if not just with PS, or if nothing else strong is up, just using it without.

 

3) Is it recommended to pop Zen immediately upon getting 30 Centering or is it better to wait until entering a PS window?

 

Use Zen on cooldown, even if you just use it with strike to build focus

 

4) Although I might have asked this before, what value do you use for the Ability Activation Queue Window? Although I usually am around 48 APM on parses, there are still times when abilities, or the transition between abilities, seem laggy.

 

I don't use ability queue at all, fits by far the best for me. 48APM is a pretty good parse I parse between 47-50.

 

Thanks, in advance for any insight or tips you might be willing to offer. As well, I apologize if the answers to my question were provided elsewhere in the thread and I merely overlooked them.

 

Regards,

 

*Provided the channel won't occur during a time when it is necessary to activate PS.

 

 

5chars

Edited September 5, 2013 by Ausgelebt

[KeyboardNinja]

1) Is it still recommended to use a SA relic with a BA relic? If one of the other proc relics should now be used in the place of the BA relic, which dmg type should be used for Combat spec?

 

Kinetic Tempest will parse higher on a dummy, but nearly every boss fight favors Boundless Ages due to variable burst windows and downtime (a fight with *any* downtime pushes the meter in favor of BA). The SA relic is always awesome.

 

2) Do you use Masterstrike as soon as it comes off c/d * or do you wait until you can fit it into a PS window? Moreover, if one or two of the ticks of MS will fall outside of a PS window, do you still use it or do you wait so that you can get the full channel inside a PS window?

 

It varies. If it comes off CD near the beginning of a filler window, I will probably use it there, especially if I have already proc'd Opportune Attack. If there are just a few seconds on the natural cooldown of Precision Slash, I'll delay Master Strike and use it in the *second* PS window (so that I don't gimp the proc chance on HoJ in the first window). I never use Master Strike in a PS window without getting all three ticks.

 

3) Is it recommended to pop Zen immediately upon getting 30 Centering or is it better to wait until entering a PS window?

 

Pop it immediately.

 

4) Although I might have asked this before, what value do you use for the Ability Activation Queue Window? Although I usually am around 48 APM on parses, there are still times when abilities, or the transition between abilities, seem laggy.

 

I've experimented with it a bit. A 200ms queue seems to work fairly well for me with my connection. I don't recommend going above 500ms (the default) since that is precisely half a GCD under Zen. A 0ms queue also works pretty well, though it's a bit jarring and you need to have very low latency to sustain it. Find whatever works for you.

 

An APM of 48 is pretty solid. On a dummy, my parses that lack lag-related glitches sit at exactly 49.7 APM every time. I think I could probably shave a bit off that, but it would be a very incremental improvement. On a boss, when I'm pressing cooldowns and such, I'll generally get an APM in the low 50s.

Edited September 5, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Leafy_Bug]

Thanks for the feedback and help KBN. I have literally started tanking with this spec at any time! Tanks hate me now .

 

 

I made this for those who are still confused what to pick when gearing up their sentinel.

[Lord_Garrex]

Alright I've been trying out the recommended opener to further push my dps but it's very inconsistent. I'd say at least 20-25% of the time I don't get that 2nd PS window after TST. When I do get it, it happens anywhere between immediately to within a split second after my TST animation. About another 20-25% of the time PS is still on cool down at the end of the "filler" segment (S>ZS>BR>S>Cauterize>S>BR>S) and then I'd say a good 70-75% of the time I don't get the second PS window in that segment. The one encouraging part is that opportune attack is almost always up for that first cauterize and was up again for the second one. Aside from that, I think I only made it cleanly through the whole rotation where everything actually worked the way it was supposed to 3 or 4 times in two hours on the dummy.

 

Does anybody have any suggestions as to what's causing this or what I can do to improve it? I'm going to keep practicing it but to have it only work a few times in two hours (possibly a little bit longer) was very frustrating and made it virtually impossible for me to duplicate.

[SlayerGopher]

A serious and big thank you for this KBN. Always loved the Sent, but I found myself really struggling a lot mid-way and this guide gave some good information that made playing my Sent. fun as heck all over again after walking away.

[SlayerGopher]

Alright I've been trying out the recommended opener to further push my dps but it's very inconsistent. I'd say at least 20-25% of the time I don't get that 2nd PS window after TST. When I do get it, it happens anywhere between immediately to within a split second after my TST animation. About another 20-25% of the time PS is still on cool down at the end of the "filler" segment (S>ZS>BR>S>Cauterize>S>BR>S) and then I'd say a good 70-75% of the time I don't get the second PS window in that segment. The one encouraging part is that opportune attack is almost always up for that first cauterize and was up again for the second one. Aside from that, I think I only made it cleanly through the whole rotation where everything actually worked the way it was supposed to 3 or 4 times in two hours on the dummy.

 

Does anybody have any suggestions as to what's causing this or what I can do to improve it? I'm going to keep practicing it but to have it only work a few times in two hours (possibly a little bit longer) was very frustrating and made it virtually impossible for me to duplicate.

 

That's strange, and I say that as the only time I have problems with the second PS window is if I screw up the opening and miskey. Are you opening with FL (Zen>Reb), I've found a few times not using Zen to open or miskeying an attack, PS will drag on for the CD after I've just used TST. I know I've found that a bear to recover from at times as the PS window is still on CD.

 

BTW, how do you use a dummy? Seen it mentioned here before, but I use TorParse, maybe that's it?

[Lord_Garrex]

That's strange, and I say that as the only time I have problems with the second PS window is if I screw up the opening and miskey. Are you opening with FL (Zen>Reb), I've found a few times not using Zen to open or miskeying an attack, PS will drag on for the CD after I've just used TST. I know I've found that a bear to recover from at times as the PS window is still on CD.

 

BTW, how do you use a dummy? Seen it mentioned here before, but I use TorParse, maybe that's it?

 

Hi Slayer. As for your final question, the dummy is on the Gav Daragon Bridge Deck. There's an operations dummy and then a couple of others there for you to practice your rotation(s) and parse away. I was parsing as high as the low 2800s recently but was told I should be squeezing out a couple hundred more dps so I decided to switch up my rotation to follow the one in this guide. Mine was *similar* in that all of my heavy hitters were within PS windows but there was quite a bit more random chance to what I was doing than what seems like a more steady, controlled rotation here.

 

As for what I'm doing wrong: I'm just not sure. The only thing that stands out off the bat is that I've been popping Zen in the moment right before I force leap as opposed to afterwards. Maybe that's the problem but then there's the fact that the other 75-80% of the time I do trigger HoJ and get that second PS window. Miskeying was initially what I thought it could be (maybe just old habits creeping into the fingers) but then I'd slow the pace down and keep a keen eye on the animations or even toggle each ability reading right off a sheet of paper I'd written it down on and still got the same frustratingly inconsistent results. My fear/concern is something I'd expressed a long time ago on this forum about excessive false casts and "partial" animations (ie, my sabers **** back over my toon's shoulders for Blade Storm but then go back to the starting point without actually "throwing"/casting the BS attack unless I key it a second time) as well as excessive lag that I sometimes have to deal with far more than anyone I know. If it's the latter, then if nothing else this whole exercise in relative futility showed me once and for all just how much of a disadvantage I've been at in areas where there's a high degree of lag potential.

 

I don't know. If there was any consistency at all to what was happening I might be able to pinpoint it better but it seemed to be pretty arbitrary without being the consequence of anything I could definitively see that I was doing wrong.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Lord_Garrex

[KarethRiker]

Any updates on BIS relics now that 2.4 has hit?

[Mr_Fuzzle]

Any updates on BIS relics now that 2.4 has hit?

 

Well, given that the power procs are still stacking, I'd say that they are the Dread Fortress Serendipitous Assault and the Obroan (PVP) Serendipitous Assault. Hurray back to the days when PVP relics are BIS for PVE!

 

As far as the other relics, the main stat proc is nice and long, but is on a long cooldown and doesn't boost much. The crit proc relic seems rather interesting, but I doubt it would eclipse the dps increase from the Boundless Ages.

 

So this leaves us with either double stacking the Serendipitous Assault as the best option or one Serendipitous Assault and the Boundless Ages for control over burst.

 

Edited since I just noticed the damage procs are gone.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Mr_Fuzzle

[KarethRiker]

Will be curious to see the math on DF Crit vs DF BA. I doubt BW will leave the double stacking SA especially with other relics double stacking drawing some attention today.

[Ausgelebt]

BIS relics depend on the encounter!

 

For NiM Dread Guards I am way better wtih 2x DMG Proc because of lots of movement(ap procing when you're not goign to attack the next seconds)

 

For most encounters I am pretty good with kinetic tempest + ap proc. I tried on the dummy uw ap+obroan ap but it did less over 5 parses than 72dmg+obroan ap

Edited October 10, 2013 by Ausgelebt

[Vecte]

Going to have a few different parts to my post, so I'll label each section.

 

Relics:

For relics, I've done multiple parses with dual SA, SA/BA, and SA/Damage Proc. In every instance, SA/BA produced better results over a 5-minute period. My only conclusion is based on the fact that we can line BA with a burst phase, which will help produce pretty numbers. On the flip side, the other Sent that I compete with in guild is Watchman. He is reporting that SA/Damage Proc is producing better results for him over dual SA and SA/BA.

 

Opener:

As mentioned a few post backs, I am also noticing inconsistencies with the Opener. The major inconsistency being PS failing to come off CD. When this happens, I'm lucky to hit 4k DPS with my opener. However, when the stars align and I get the full opener, I peak at around 5600 DPS, depending on RNG. Luckily, the tanks in our progression group actually know what they are doing, and can hold the boss off me without the need for a guard.

 

My DPS:

My main concern is where my DPS is currently at. I have no comparable Combat Sent in guild to go off of. We have four Sents in our 16m progression group, and three of them are Watchman, me being the only Combat Sent. With that being said, on the dummy, I am the second highest parsing Sent in the group. Our difference in DPS, going off our latest parses, is only about 30 DPS in his favor. I attribute this to our gear differences. He is currently in full BiS 72s, with select BiS 78s. My gear is, well, all over the place. Here is a link to my current gear. As you can see, I have a pretty crazy mixture of things going on, but everything is the best I have available to me currently.

 

With that gear, this is currently what I've been able to pull on the dummy: Vecte Combat Parse. This parse was done with all buffs, a nano might stim, and no adrenals. In all honesty, I think I can push myself higher if I lack screw-ups, but even on the dummy, I still tend to mess something up. I botched a few Blade Storms on this parse, and I think there was one instance where I screwed up resources and had to use strike twice. I've also found when I parse, that putting too much emphasis on Cauterize causes me to lose DPS. I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing wrong to cause this to happen, but in many instances I find that using Blade Rush produces better results.

[Bilirubin]

Oh hey look KBN is posting really useful threads in another class forum!

 

Just started a Sent because while tanking recently I realized that most of my guild's dps were gunslingers lol. Plus I really got to like the play style with my Mara, and I haven't yet seen the JK story...so I'm just going to level my way up the combat/carnage tree.

 

Suggestions welcome.

 

ETA: one quick question: as a combat sent I want Ataru form once I get it?

Edited October 21, 2013 by Bilirubin

[Darth_Dreselus]

A few questions.

 

1. at 78s crit still bad?

2. in the Precision Slash + Blade Storm > Blade Rush > Blade Rush > Zealous Strike > Precision Slash + Dispatch > Blade Rush > Blade Storm part (obv ZS may just be S) if OA is not procced for the second BS should it be replaced with BR?

3. Non-zenned MS used on cd as filler or save for Zen windows?

[atschai]

at 78s crit still bad?

 

I'd say its still bad for all classes with high autocrit, i.e. combat and focus, not so much watchman.

[KeyboardNinja]

1. at 78s crit still bad?

 

Yep

 

2. in the Precision Slash + Blade Storm > Blade Rush > Blade Rush > Zealous Strike > Precision Slash + Dispatch > Blade Rush > Blade Storm part (obv ZS may just be S) if OA is not procced for the second BS should it be replaced with BR?

 

Yes, I generally don't use BS outside of the OA proc. Someone did some math a while back which showed that BS does more damage on average than BR even without the auto-crit, but I haven't actually verified that.

 

3. Non-zenned MS used on cd as filler or save for Zen windows?

 

Use on CD as a filler unless <3s on Precision Slash, in which case you should save it for the second window. I really need to update the guide with respect to that point. Don't wait for Zen.

[Alduinsm]

@KBN: At what point do i use BS with OA or delay it during the filter phase if i didn't use BS in the 2nd PS due to not proccing OA? Edited October 23, 2013 by Alduinsm