KBN's Guide to Combat Spec (or: how to sentinel tank)

[KeyboardNinja]

All of the in-game testing I have done puts the MH on the last tick Master Strike over Dispatch (no use of Zen for Weaponmaster, relics unequipped, no Inspiration, no adrenals, etc.). That is before the quite strong offhand attack the last tick comes with is accounted for. Is the 2 Piece PvE being accounted for in your calculations?

 

I haven't done any formal math on it (project for another day!). My assertion was simply reminiscing about analyzing my logs, where the last tick of Master Strike seems to crit (in my opener) for around 12.5k, while Dispatch never crits for less than 13k in the opener, and sometimes 14k. (dispatch actually appears to be a harder-hitting ability than Blade Storm, but only when it crits) Again, this is all just based on looking at the crits I can get in the first few seconds under all relics, adrenals, Inspiration and Zen buffs and without a 78 main hand.

 

Clearly you don't want to lose the last tick if you can help it. To clarify for everyone, what Macedonicus was saying about breaking the channel is that you want to wait until the last damage tick, but not until the channel itself finishes. This is something that I do quite a bit in an actual boss fight, but I find it generally unnecessary in a dummy parse since the timing holds together extremely well. I really don't have a purpose for those extra 0.3 seconds, and I would essentially just spend them waiting for Precision Slash to come off cooldown and avoiding the risk of an inopportune Ataru proc. This obviously isn't true on a boss, where movement and mechanics will cause timing to get desynced, making it advantageous to break a Master Strike after the final tick if you want to squeeze in a late attack in the PS window.

 

On another note, with Zen the last tick of MS hits at 2.2 seconds in the channel, and I wouldn't recommend not using Zen due to Weaponmaster and it makes fitting in the extra attack into PS easier. .4 Seconds can be pretty significant in Combat.

 

Zen is massively unbelievably important for all Sentinel specs, of course, but I think Combat is the one where it sees the most use. This is simply because Watchmen and Focus both have strong impetus to hold Zen for a GCD or two (no more) on occasion when the highest benefit can be had in just another moment. With Combat, the benefits are essentially immediate. The only reason to hold off on Zen is if you have a single focus building GCD before a Precision Slash window and are sitting on 30 stacks. There, it's worth standing pat for just that instant, but this situation arises at most twice in an 8 minute parse, and generally not at all on a boss (due to raid damage).

 

The only other option then if you want to sync Master Strike and Zen is to hold off on using Master Strike. This is also very inadvisable, since Master Strike is an extremely hard hitter with six individual strikes (lots of Ataru chances) and (even more importantly) focus-neutral. And remember, on a boss, raid damage is going to throw your Zen timing completely out of sync with what you might be used to if you dummy parse extensively, so you can't really rely on subtle timing fudges applied during practice parses.

 

Ultimately, using Zen on Master Strike, while exciting and great when it happens, actually isn't that important. You get to use your Zen a bit more efficiently, since you burn one charge in two GCDs, but that's about it. It is technically a higher DPS gain to use two instant attacks under Zen, since there you see the full 30% reduction (3 seconds down to 2 seconds) rather than the 23.3% reduction that Master Strike gets.

Edited December 27, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[skomerko]

Can anyone tell me how big the gap in dps can be between 49-50 apm parse and 46-47 parse? Is it very noticable or difference isnt that big?

[Bejarid]

It is technically a higher DPS gain to use two instant attacks under Zen, since there you see the full 30% reduction (3 seconds down to 2 seconds) rather than the 23.3% reduction that Master Strike gets.

 

I'm gonna dispute this slightly. With MS under Zen, you still see full 30% benefit from Alacrity, it's just that Alacrity isn't a flat subtraction of the listed percentage. It appears to be 3s / (1 + .30) = 2.3, and the global reduction should then be 1.5 / (1 + .30) = 1.15.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Bejarid
Bad math; fixing.

[KeyboardNinja]

I'm gonna dispute this slightly. With MS under Zen, you still see full 30% benefit from Alacrity, it's just that Alacrity isn't a flat subtraction of the listed percentage. It appears to be 3s / (1 * .30) = 2.3, and the global reduction should then be 1.5 / (1* .30) = 1.15.

 

Except that alacrity doesn't work that way with any other cast/channel in the game. It is always time * (1 - alacrity). Master Strike is the only exception.

[georgemattson]

I'm gonna dispute this slightly. With MS under Zen, you still see full 30% benefit from Alacrity, it's just that Alacrity isn't a flat subtraction of the listed percentage. It appears to be 3s / (1 * .30) = 2.3, and the global reduction should then be 1.5 / (1* .30) = 1.15.

 

Okay, I'm not even remotely qualified to discuss any other part of this topic, but as I'm reading this quote, your math is wrong.

 

3 / (1 * .30) would be read as "three divided by point zero three" or 3 / .3, which is equal to 10.

 

Ditto with 1.5 / (1 * .30), which would equal 5.

 

*If* I understand what you guys are saying, in that a 3 second maneuver benefits from a 30% reduction in speed, the formula for that would be 3 * (1 - .30), or 3 * .7 = 2.1. A 30% reduction to a 3 second maneuver would yield a 2.1 second maneuver, in other words. A 1.5 second maneuver reduced by 30% would yield a 1.05 second maneuver.

 

Sorry; like I said, I'm not qualified to contradict what you're saying, content-wise, but your math did look wrong. Or am I completely misunderstanding?

Edited December 27, 2013 by georgemattson

[georgemattson]

Except that alacrity doesn't work that way with any other cast/channel in the game. It is always time * (1 - alacrity). Master Strike is the only exception.

 

Or what he said. Never mind, sorry. Would help if I read every post before I responded to one.

[Bejarid]

Okay, I'm not even remotely qualified to discuss any other part of this topic, but as I'm reading this quote, your math is wrong.

 

You're right, that should have been (1 + .3), not (1 * .3); my bad.

 

Except that alacrity doesn't work that way with any other cast/channel in the game. It is always time * (1 - alacrity). Master Strike is the only exception.

 

That is...Incredibly peculiar. Has this been brought to BW's attention? Have we gotten any clarification on that discrepency?

[KeyboardNinja]

That is...Incredibly peculiar. Has this been brought to BW's attention? Have we gotten any clarification on that discrepency?

 

Not to my knowledge. Master Strike used to not benefit from alacrity *at all*, so even the current state of affairs is an improvement. I'm guessing that the reason it doesn't drop all the way to 2 seconds is PvP, since that would be an enormous amount of burst in a short time, and very difficult to counter.

[TradeLA]

On another note, with Zen the last tick of MS hits at 2.2 seconds in the channel, and I wouldn't recommend not using Zen due to Weaponmaster and it makes fitting in the extra attack into PS easier. .4 Seconds can be pretty significant in Combat.

 

I didn't mean not use Zen at all, I meant it's less important to line up Zen with Master Strike. I'm guessing that if you break every Master Strike at 2.7, the extra effort required to delay Masterstrike a GCD or two or to delay Zen until Masterstrike comes off cooldown becomes a losing proposition that just distracts the player (as KBN seems to be confirming).

Edited December 28, 2013 by TradeLA

[TradeLA]

Can anyone tell me how big the gap in dps can be between 49-50 apm parse and 46-47 parse? Is it very noticable or difference isnt that big?

 

While your apms are going to vary from minute to minute, on average, getting in 47 attacks instead of 50, in apples to apples comparison, would seem to translate to a 6% loss.

 

What I don't understand is why people wouldn't be doing Dispatch right before PS since it's been shown that if you do them in quick succession, the PS will affect Dispatch, leaving room for an extra attack inside the PS window.

[KeyboardNinja]

What I don't understand is why people wouldn't be doing Dispatch right before PS since it's been shown that if you do them in quick succession, the PS will affect Dispatch, leaving room for an extra attack inside the PS window.

 

It's not reliable, especially in an operation. If you look at the top carnage parses on the old boards (since the new boards haven't really fully populated yet), none of them used the dispatch trick you're talking about. It does produce a DPS gain when you can pull it off, but the fact is that it requires some very split-second timing, and if it gets messed up (either due to execution or, more likely, lag) you lose dispatch out of the window along with potentially losing the last ability in the window as well.

 

In short, it's a bad trick. Sure, it's fun when it works, but I haven't seen anyone who can make it work reliably on a boss, and the number of people with server connectivity such that they can make it work reliably on even a dummy is very small.

[vdbswong]

The only other option then if you want to sync Master Strike and Zen is to hold off on using Master Strike. This is also very inadvisable, since Master Strike is an extremely hard hitter with six individual strikes (lots of Ataru chances) and (even more importantly) focus-neutral. And remember, on a boss, raid damage is going to throw your Zen timing completely out of sync with what you might be used to if you dummy parse extensively, so you can't really rely on subtle timing fudges applied during practice parses.

 

Ultimately, using Zen on Master Strike, while exciting and great when it happens, actually isn't that important. You get to use your Zen a bit more efficiently, since you burn one charge in two GCDs, but that's about it. It is technically a higher DPS gain to use two instant attacks under Zen, since there you see the full 30% reduction (3 seconds down to 2 seconds) rather than the 23.3% reduction that Master Strike gets.

 

I, for the life of me can't seem to get a DPS increase when using Zen on CD, as opposed to saving Zen for use with MS in a PS window.

 

At first I thought it was to do with the terrible sync timing I had, with Zen constantly lining up with the very end of the 2nd PS window, but even after delaying for a few GCDs so it would line up during a PS window, I'm still seeing the same DPS (compared to saving Zen for MS, if not a little worse).

 

Maybe one of you people can see where I'm going wrong here? I did a 10min parse of each type, no Insp, Clicky Relic or Adrenal (since i'm terrible at using them on CD >.>).

 

Parse #1. (Saving Zen for use with MS during PS Window): http://www.torparse.com/a/536639/time/1388589798/1388590398/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Parse #2. (Using Zen on CD, sometimes delayed to re-sync with PS window): http://www.torparse.com/a/536639/time/1388590488/1388591088/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Both parses have some slight mistakes during them, but they were generally few and far between. Either way, I don't feel that if both parses were done "perfectly" they'd differ significantly from each other anyways.

[Whojoo]

EDIT: Questions already answerd in guide's update Edited January 10, 2014 by Whojoo

[Felkroth]

Whew. I'm a gunslinger...so all this "Hit XY&Z under PS but cancel before the 2.7 duration in order to execute another ability under PS" stuff sounds quite complicated.

 

My sentinel is one of 12 other alts, one of which has been 55 for quite sometime collecting dust but I finally got around to throwing some extra Comm gear on her.

 

My question. Since I'm not gonna stress too much over an alt about all the technical aspects ya'll deal with here...I am just simply curious on one thing. So when I open combat I'm throwing everything on cooldown, and the point of Combat is to watch those split second PS, Dispatch, Blade Storm et al. procs....What I am unsure of is, when I'm waiting on something to come available I tend to run out of Focus casting Blade Rush over and over (and also Cauterize) before I have another Zealous Strike available to pump my focus back up.

 

So I'm left utilizing Strike more than what I would imagine is good. How do I manage my focus? What is the filler crap I'm supposed to be using till I get procs (cause Blade Rush, even with the refund point in Watchman, leaves me dead on Focus)...

 

If you know Sage Teleketics, I'm essentially asking what is a sentinels "Disturbance" ability I keep using till I get more procs (so I can do it without killing my Focus)??

[vdbswong]

Whew. I'm a gunslinger...so all this "Hit XY&Z under PS but cancel before the 2.7 duration in order to execute another ability under PS" stuff sounds quite complicated.

 

My sentinel is one of 12 other alts, one of which has been 55 for quite sometime collecting dust but I finally got around to throwing some extra Comm gear on her.

 

My question. Since I'm not gonna stress too much over an alt about all the technical aspects ya'll deal with here...I am just simply curious on one thing. So when I open combat I'm throwing everything on cooldown, and the point of Combat is to watch those split second PS, Dispatch, Blade Storm et al. procs....What I am unsure of is, when I'm waiting on something to come available I tend to run out of Focus casting Blade Rush over and over (and also Cauterize) before I have another Zealous Strike available to pump my focus back up.

 

So I'm left utilizing Strike more than what I would imagine is good. How do I manage my focus? What is the filler crap I'm supposed to be using till I get procs (cause Blade Rush, even with the refund point in Watchman, leaves me dead on Focus)...

 

If you know Sage Teleketics, I'm essentially asking what is a sentinels "Disturbance" ability I keep using till I get more procs (so I can do it without killing my Focus)??

 

From my perspective, it's more about:

 

a) Making sure you'll have enough Focus going into a PS rotation.

 

b) Making sure you have the right procs going into a PS rotation.

 

c) Making sure stuff goes on CD.

 

So for the first part, for my rotation, I know it takes 5 Focus for the first PS window (PS>BS>BR>TST) and 4 Focus for the 2nd PS window (PS>DS>BR>BS).

 

So as long as I'm at the right Focus, with my OA proc up, I'll just alternate between BR and Strike which keeps me Focus neutral.

 

If i don't have 5 Focus yet, I'll spam Strike if Zealous won't be off CD for a bit. Basicaly:

 

- If you need to build Focus, don't worry about spamming Strike, your PS windows are the majority of your DPS, so make sure you have enough Focus to ensure they're not wasted.

[Bejarid]

I tend to run out of Focus casting Blade Rush over and over

 

This alone is your problem. Between PS windows, ZS boosts, and procs, you should be alternating BR and Strike to remain Focus-neutral at around 4 or 5 Focus. In so doing, you ensure that you don't waste any of the Focus gained from your next ZS and have plenty react to procs as necessary.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Bejarid

[Felkroth]

 

- If you need to build Focus, don't worry about spamming Strike, your PS windows are the majority of your DPS, so make sure you have enough Focus to ensure they're not wasted.

 

 

Good thought. Never considered that.

[Felkroth]

So above I quoted a very important philosophy about Combat....that the majority of our dmg is coming out of PS windows.

 

 

 

So, a follow up question. Now that I have been attempting to execute a more refined rotation based upon the feedback I recieved. What do you do with the excess Blade Rush(s) that you get outside (or perhaps SLIGHTLY outside) of a PS cooldown?

 

So you've just executed a PS rotation. It is on cooldown, and during the MIDDLE of its cooldown another Blade Rush procs (obviously you'd utilize that Blade Rush I'd imagine). What if that Blade Rush procs and PS has like 3 seconds till its ready? Do you hold the Blade Rush for the PS timer to come up?

 

In the reverse of that question...What if you have a PS, but no Blade Rush proc'd and ready for it? Do you hold the PS till you get a good alignment of procs ready for it?

[vdbswong]

So above I quoted a very important philosophy about Combat....that the majority of our dmg is coming out of PS windows.

 

 

 

So, a follow up question. Now that I have been attempting to execute a more refined rotation based upon the feedback I recieved. What do you do with the excess Blade Rush(s) that you get outside (or perhaps SLIGHTLY outside) of a PS cooldown?

 

So you've just executed a PS rotation. It is on cooldown, and during the MIDDLE of its cooldown another Blade Rush procs (obviously you'd utilize that Blade Rush I'd imagine). What if that Blade Rush procs and PS has like 3 seconds till its ready? Do you hold the Blade Rush for the PS timer to come up?

 

In the reverse of that question...What if you have a PS, but no Blade Rush proc'd and ready for it? Do you hold the PS till you get a good alignment of procs ready for it?

 

By "excess Blade Rush(s)", are you talking about Blade Storm (BS)? And by procs, do you mean "Opportune Attack (OA)" (looks like a blue man fencing - gives Blade Storm 100% chance to crit)?

 

Assuming that's what you meant:

 

a) If OA procs and your BS is off CD, do you wait for PS to come off CD? - Definitely, the 100% ArPen you get from PS makes your BS hit like a truck, esp. since it'll be a guaranteed Crit and you have +Crit Damage talents to it.

 

b) If OA hasn't proc'd and your PS just comes off CD? I think KBN stated that it's better to just use BS anyways since on average it does more damage than adding in another BR. Just remember you'll be 1 Focus short going into your window (since you won't get the refund from consuming your OA proc).

 

Generally you should never hold off on using PS when it comes off CD because you risk proc'ing the reset (HoJ) whilst it's off CD. In general, the only times I ever hold off on PS are:

 

- I've built a gap between my first PS window and my second HoJ PS window, so i can wait maybe 1-2 GCDs if I want some procs to align or didn't build enough focus.

 

- I'm on my second PS window (so HoJ is another ~20s or so away) and I want to line up some procs or build up enough Focus.

 

But all in all, it's not something you should ever delay, only happens when you *need* to.

[KeyboardNinja]

Finally went back and updated this guide for some of the things I've learned in the last few months, as well as the modified training dummies (and thus execute phase). Enjoy! Edited January 9, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Whojoo]

Hiya

I'm still leveling my marauder but I have the full Carnage tree. I'm running into a small 'problem' though. I'll just throw everything in Sentinel terms.

 

So I'm getting into my first PS window with the following: PS + BS -> BR + HoJ proc -> Disp -> Strike -> PS + BR -> BR -> BS. After that filling focus again etc, but before I get to my first PS window I manage to proc HoJ

This doesn't happen a lot, but it is very annoying since my first burst window is just thrown away. This problem has only occured during bigger trash fights or elite mobs and even then not that often.

 

So I'd like to know, is there a way to prevent HoJ from proccing before the first PS?

 

Btw, thanks for the update to the guide ^^ and for the guide overall, I can soon annoy some guildie tanks

[Memo-]

Ok, I think I need a few pointers for end-game Combat. I've been playing the spec for about a year, and while I think I'm getting better and better at it, I think my DPS still leaves something to be desired.

 

Here's my best parse so far: http://www.torparse.com/a/551470/4/0/Overview

1mil modifier and armor debuff on the dummy + 1 Inspiration and 2 Nano-Infused Attack Adrenals.

Here's an AMR-profile as well: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/94e7b573-6fc5-4337-a3c4-9b2fb8e84b0e

 

Anyone willing to take a look at the log and help me out?

Edited January 13, 2014 by Memo-

[jeremyofmany]

I have a Level 55 Jedi Knight Sentinel in Combat Spec.

 

I am interested in improving my DPS.

 

I run HM FPs, SM/HM TC, SM/HM S&V, SM/HM TFB, SM DF (working on HM), SM DP (working on HM).

 

I am mostly a clicker but do have several hotkeys (Zen, Valorous Call, Inspiration, Twin Saber Throw, Pacify).

 

I have my buff/debuff scale set to 0.7. I have been focusing on the force cost of different abilities and their associated cooldowns without focusing much on my buffs/procs. I find that as I am clicking away and putting strong focus on my quickbar(s), that it is distracting to look at my buff/sprocs - but I can work on that.

Recently, I have been watching for Opportune Attack to know specifically when to use Blade Storm for 10% more damage.

I ran a 7-minute parse on my Operations Dummy:

http://www.torparse.com/a/552217

 

Please let me know where you think improvements can be made. Thanks.

[AngusFTW]

You really need to consider learning to keybind if you want to play combat at the correct apm to get the maximum out of the spec. At least bind precision.... Edited January 14, 2014 by AngusFTW

[Projawa]

Ok, I think I need a few pointers for end-game Combat. I've been playing the spec for about a year, and while I think I'm getting better and better at it, I think my DPS still leaves something to be desired.

 

Here's my best parse so far: http://www.torparse.com/a/551470/4/0/Overview

1mil modifier and armor debuff on the dummy + 1 Inspiration and 2 Nano-Infused Attack Adrenals.

Here's an AMR-profile as well: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/94e7b573-6fc5-4337-a3c4-9b2fb8e84b0e

 

Anyone willing to take a look at the log and help me out?

 

It's a decent parse. Do you have the 4 piece set bonus armorings? Your AMR profile lists just the non-set bonus armorings.

 

I wouldn't worry about the top parsers. Most of them are speccing into Hungering 7/36/3, using a Kell Dragon or Underworld SA relic, and using Rupture nearly on cooldown to take advantage of a bug with those relics where healing done can proc the relic a second time on a separate cooldown with procs from damage done ( and vice versa) for some huge power boost stacking.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Projawa