MaxiO Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I agree to all your points, but offer this: Let me begin at the end by saying that min-maxing is, in fact, a product originally of tabletop gaming. In my opinion, min-maxing is the bane of tabletop gaming and is one of the reasons why I refuse to play several systems (most notably 4e). I''ve spent my entire tabletop gaming career trying to find people who won''t min-max because it destroys the fun for me. The same is true in online gaming - min-maxers destroy the fun for me. Let's be fair - min-maxing has been going on a lot longer than tabletop gaming. There will always be strategists, theorists and practitioners of min-maxing because our race is hardwired to find the most efficient route. It's part of the reason we're so advanced. I agree that removing dual-spec will not stop people who want to min-max, which is why it won''t slow down "hardcore" people, but it will stop the spread of the play style. A minority of players min-maxing is manageable, I can simply not play with them, but when the majority (overwhelming) of players adopt this play style (I believe because it is convenient) it ruins the game for me. In my opinion, this is where your position falls down - as does that of others who are against it. Whilst dual-spec *could* be considered an aid to min-maxing, that is not it's most pertinent feature. It simply removes the need to grind excessively to compete with 'specialists' who choose to only play one aspect of the game. You won't remove the min-maxers by removal of DS, ergo the players you're complaining about will still abound. Perhaps I am in the minority in this opinion (not liking min-maxers), so perhaps it is a better business option to ignore me and appease others - and I can accept that - but I can''t stop arguing my point because it is what I believe is correct and fun. I suspect you are in the minority, although I think that it's more a specialised viewpoint you have on a subset of the gaming community. And yes, it probably is better business sense to favour DS. "Optimized" builds will always exist, all I want is to not cater towards them or rather, not cater towards them being widespread and "cookie-cutter". That they will, and DS does not cater to it. The hardcore raiders will still demand a specific spec without DS. The hardcore PvPers will still find the best utility spec without DS. The majority of players will use it as a useful tool to save grinding, and that is something we should all be in favour of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 What's the point of arguing whether the game needs this or not? It's a confirmed feature coming soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caelrie Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I agree to all your points, but offer this: Let me begin at the end by saying that min-maxing is, in fact, a product originally of tabletop gaming. In my opinion, min-maxing is the bane of tabletop gaming and is one of the reasons why I refuse to play several systems (most notably 4e). I''ve spent my entire tabletop gaming career trying to find people who won''t min-max because it destroys the fun for me. The same is true in online gaming - min-maxers destroy the fun for me. You're in the wrong game genre if you can't play with people who min-max. It's been around in MMORPGs since the first MMORPG and isn't ever going away. You need to learn tolerance of others or maybe stick to single-player games. I agree that removing dual-spec will not stop people who want to min-max, which is why it won''t slow down "hardcore" people, but it will stop the spread of the play style. A minority of players min-maxing is manageable, I can simply not play with them, but when the majority (overwhelming) of players adopt this play style (I believe because it is convenient) it ruins the game for me. You've overstepped yourself when you start thinking it's YOUR job to "stop the spread of a playstyle" because you don't like it. Big time. SWTOR isn't your game. It's the game of over a million people. And it's Bioware's game. "Optimized" builds will always exist, all I want is to not cater towards them or rather, not cater towards them being widespread and "cookie-cutter". These games HAVE to cater to that, or there's no challenge in the endgame. If there's no challenge to the endgame, there IS no endgame, and the game fails. Edited December 23, 2011 by Caelrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I think that the whole argument currently is without merit. Even if they did add dual spec, they wont get rid of specialization, so if you are a shadow consular (tank/dps) and want to heal (sage!) gratz! even with dual spec you WILL HAVE TO REROLL. all you guys arguing about the torture of being forced to reroll you will still have to. But on the other side, we already have respecs in game, so arguing against them is a moot point...unless your simply stating your personal opinion on the matter, which I respect highly. dual spec is simply an EZ mode version of respeccing. its a reflection of the McDonalds age we live in. Not IMO a good thing. But the healing/tank imbalance needs to be addressed. it is a thorn in the side of MMO's. always has been. But they don't need to give us dual spec to accomplish it. That's an EZ mode bandaid. this game has better options and more flexibility then previous MMO's did. A great example would be to allow greater customization of your companions, along with more gear options to further customize them. Like actually getting drops for my lizard dude...I hate having to go to a vendor and buy him weapons because mobs don't drop tech blades. why in the world does a primitive hunter race use only high end tech gadgets for weapons! But I digress...I'm currently running with lizard-man on my Shadow Consular. He's a great tank, and does enough DPS that he can finish off weak/normal mobs on his own, or even hold off an elite long enough for me to finish off the extra mobs and start digging into the elite. But he could use some polishing and a bit more flexibility. more gear options please. Plus... I'm think along the lines of giving companions small talent trees so we can choose different options....like increasing my lizard's dps as an example, with the choice of a few talents if i am rolling a healing spec. or put points in a few tank talents if i need a tank because i rolled a squishy DPS spec. then you could spec as a healer, and still have DPS output in solo play so you aren't feeling behind. Plus, when you join a team for an FP or heroic, the companion disappears, so your not going into an FP as a healer with unbalanced DPS. The trees wouldn't need to be complex either. they could be simply choices...in tier one do I pick a talent that adds to my companions damage reduction, or a talent that increases the damage on his most common attack. simple choices to give us the option of either increasing their base damage output, or their strengths in their secondary roles. Lizard head in this case would have the tank and dps talents to choose from. To me that is a much more effective solution then dual spec that satisfies both side of the argument. it doesn't ruin immersion, allows non DPS classes to keep up with the leveling curve, yet preserves pure DPS classes in group settings who would suffer with a respec option (simply due to the hybrid advantage). opening up options on companions is IMO the better solution to both sides of the equation. and it preserves the RPG factor. It would also allow more flexibility to choose a companion then we currently have. you could choose any of the companions that had a dps option if you need the damage, and then choose their secondary role to compliment your weak points. best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxtasy Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 To me that is a much more effective solution then dual spec that satisfies both side of the argument. Except you are completely ignoring the other side of the argument. The majority of people want dual spec for a PvE/PvP build. Your whole idea does nothing for that. Why in the hell would you support being able to PAY for a respec so that you can PvP/PvE, but would not support a dual spec option? Simply to make it more of a pain in the ***? You call it "mcdonalds" MMO, but it is simply an innovation. Just because something is more convenient and easier does not mean it is dumbed down or EZmode, it simply means that it isn't a major pain in the ***. Does no one remember the EQ grindfest? Putting in more questing in later MMOs was probably looked at by some as "EZmode", but thank god they were the insane vocal minority, since the genre was improved. Just like it was with dual speccing. I am going to flip PvP build and raid build anyway, along with every single other end game raider who enjoys pvp on the weekends, this will just eliminate the stupid cash grind to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I didn't ignore the other side of the argument Axx, and I don't' see the majority wanting it for PvP. I see both camps (the PvP'ers and PvE'ers) as wanting dual spec for a variety of reasons. What you see as a pain in the ***** I see as an EZ mode option...and my comment about it being a null argument still stands. you will still have to re-roll, and you will still have respec options, whether dual spec exists or not. And My option would resolve your issue with PvP. spec a PvP spec, and pick a companion that complements your weaknesses. does your DPS suffer because you chose PvP talents? pick a DPS companion..perhaps one with a healing subset, and pump up their DPS skills. or perhaps their healing skills if you need that backup support. I fail to see why you don't' think that would solve your problem. My idea was a way we could bridge the gap between the two camps, and it seems to do that effectively. It's not the answer to end all answers, but I'm at least providing reasonable alternatives, which it seems the two extreme camps do not like. Edit: The only thing that my idea doesn't resolve is those that want to be able to PvP and then immediately hop into a PvE FP and be top DPS. But It bears repeating that my idea bridge both camps. I personally am perfectly happy with NOT having a respec option in the game, but i'm willing to try and tread middle ground. it seems you are reacting far more selfishly in these regards. I still stand on the idea that dual spec is a bandaid...and a poor one at that. keep in mind that it causes as many issues as it solves. one example is the "pure class deficit" with dual spec in existence, pure classes will be pushed to extinction because they are inferior in an environment where a hybrid can dps as well as them in a dps spec, then switch to a heal spec in the blnk of an eye. the pure class does not have that option, and they would be chosen less because of that. I currently see that occurring in other active MMO's as we speak. Edited December 23, 2011 by Elyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nague Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I think nescessary is too strong of a word. I also think it's a bit absurd that in a massively multiplayer game, a game specifically designed around you playing with other people, that anyone can truly say they *need* to be completely self-reliant. Make friends. Have fun. And I hope the game weeds out the people who just absolutely refuse to make friends. There are all kinds of other games for those people. MMOs like this should do the exact opposite and encourage social bonding. so when i want to be a raid healer or tank i am no longer allowed to really solo play and have to have a buddy with me at all times? because thats how it was before dual spec and i have no intentions to be a halpless holy priest ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxtasy Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) and I don't' see the majority wanting it for PvP. Where exaclty are you looking? Go back through the thread. Most people want this for flipping between PvP and PvE. What you see as a pain in the ***** I see as an EZ mode option... Honestly? You truly, honestly believe that it somehow adds to the enjoyment of the gamers who are active PvPers and raiders to have to grind cash? I find that hard to believe. If so, we obviously have very different ideas about what is fun. Also, what are you talking about as far as a bandaid? Are you talking about the healer/tank issue? Well, sure it does help in that respect, so sounds like a decent bandaid to me. If you are talking about a bandaid to help with the respec costs that active players would incur...well thats not a bandaid, its a fix. and my comment about it being a null argument still stands. you will still have to re-roll, and you will still have respec options, whether dual spec exists or not. I guess I am just not understanding what you are saying here, please elaborate. And My option would resolve your issue with PvP. spec a PvP spec, and pick a companion that complements your weaknesses. does your DPS suffer because you chose PvP talents? pick a DPS companion..etc etc etc Here is where I think the divide is happening. Like I said earlier in this thread, a large part of this comes from people who do not raid and PvP. If you had done much PvP in this game you would know that you cannot use your companions in any of the instanced PvP. As far as RvR who knows? Edit: The only thing that my idea doesn't resolve is those that want to be able to PvP and then immediately hop into a PvE FP and be top DPS. But It bears repeating that my idea bridge both camps. I personally am perfectly happy with NOT having a respec option in the game, but i'm willing to try and tread middle ground. it seems you are reacting far more selfishly in these regards. Don't start with that crap. As stated above your idea has nothing to do with me or the countless other raiders who PvP. It would not help us in the slightest. You are blatantly incorrect. Even if you WERE right about companions in PvP, how in the hell would that make me selfish? I am not the one wanting to impose a grind on other players when it is not anything that would involve me anyway. I still stand on the idea that dual spec is a bandaid...and a poor one at that. keep in mind that it causes as many issues as it solves. one example is the "pure class deficit" with dual spec in existence, pure classes will be pushed to extinction because they are inferior in an environment where a hybrid can dps as well as them in a dps spec, then switch to a heal spec in the blnk of an eye. the pure class does not have that option, and they would be chosen less because of that. I currently see that occurring in other active MMO's as we speak. You obviously have very little experience with any sort of raid environment or pvp environment. Historically hybrid specs have almost ALWAYS been inferior to pure specs in regards to ANY role, whether it be tanking, dps or support. In every game that allows dual speccing, pure classes still thrive. I have no idea where you are getting your ideas, but they are completely groundless and without any sort of factual basis. Hell, look at Rift, where you can be up to 6 classes. Pure classes are still the norm for just about anything. I think you mean well, but you have very little idea what you are talking about. You have ideas, but they are based on groundless rhetoric instead of real facts. Edited December 23, 2011 by Axxtasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Where exaclty are you looking? Go back through the thread. Most people want this for flipping between PvP and PvE. I also saw a good deal of people discussing the base merits solely on PvE. perhaps we were both seeing one side of that coin. i will admit that I saw the PvPers as well, I just don't think in general they are the majority. Honestly? You truly, honestly believe that it somehow adds to the enjoyment of the gamers who are active PvPers and raiders to have to grind cash? I find that hard to believe. If so, we obviously have very different ideas about what is fun. I didn't say that paying a price was fun. But i also said that i like the no respec option. paying a price IMO is a decent middle ground. Id prefer it the other way. but im flexible. Also, what are you talking about as far as a bandaid? Are you talking about the healer/tank issue? Well, sure it does help in that respect, so sounds like a decent bandaid to me. If you are talking about a bandaid to help with the respec costs that active players would incur...well that's not a bandaid, its a fix. it's a bandaid because the idea of using a dual spec is a poor fix to a bigger problem in class design IMO. And that bandaid can cause problems as much as solve them. But it's and easy fix which is why its often used. doesn't mean its the best. I guess I am just not understanding what you are saying here, please elaborate. it was my original statement before i went off on a tangent. both side already have quasi solutions in the game, they just don't like them. the re-roll camp still has their exclusivity...you can respec within a specialty, but if you want to, say, heal with your consular instead of tank, you need to reroll a consular and specialize in sage. So IMO there are already solutions in game for this...it's the nature of the solution that's in arguement. Here is where I think the divide is happening. Like I said earlier in this thread, a large part of this comes from people who do not raid and PvP. If you had done much PvP in this game you would know that you cannot use your companions in any of the instanced PvP. As far as RvR who knows? I was raiding in BC (WoW) as a tank and healer back when dual spec didn't exist, tanks did squat for damage, and costs were prohibitive for the time. I wont say that I enjoyed the cost, but I didn't mind it in the sense that I was willing to accept the price. Don't start with that crap. As stated above your idea has nothing to do with me or the countless other raiders who PvP. It would not help us in the slightest. You are blatantly incorrect. Even if you WERE right about companions in PvP, how in the hell would that make me selfish? I am not the one wanting to impose a grind on other players when it is not anything that would involve me anyway. yeah, i retract that last portion of the statement. busy at work and didn't think about that last comment, my apologies. but aside from that, you would need to explain how dual spec would help you in PvP. True, companions aren't used in PvP. but then again, dual spec doesn't help you in PvP. it allows you to switch over from a PvP spec to a PvE spec. And in my edit, i did say that my solution would not help that specific case. but again, there's a solution already in game. You obviously have very little experience with any sort of raid environment or pvp environment. incorrect. just because i disagree with you does not mean that i have no experience in raiding. yoru connotating raiding or PvP experience with a personal preference choice. totally different concepts. you can currently, in game, respec after PvP to run a PvE setting. I understand your reason for the simplification of the process, but i simply disagree. and my raiding experience has nothing to do with that, neither does yours. Historically hybrid specs have almost ALWAYS been inferior to pure specs in regards to ANY role, whether it be tanking, dps or support. In every game that allows dual speccing, pure classes still thrive. I have no idea where you are getting your ideas, but they are completely groundless and without any sort of factual basis. Hell, look at Rift, where you can be up to 6 classes. Pure classes are still the norm for just about anything. current WoW statistics prove otherwise. can't say about rift, couldn't hold my attention long enough. i do remember playing my cleric up to 17 or so, and that was a hybrid class. But currently in WoW, hybrids are the norm and preferred. read ghostcrawlers last blog about the current state of rogues if you don't believe me. I agree with you on this part...traditionally, hybrids were always underpowered compared to pure classes. But traditionally, MMO's didn't have dual spec and you had to pay dearly for your respec options. if were talking tradition... Currently in WoW (this game so far seems to be heavily modeled on their design), hybrids are at a distinct advantage to pure classes. I think you mean well, but you have very little idea what you are talking about. You have ideas, but they are based on groundless rhetoric instead of real facts. I appreciate your earnestness, and I apologize for my earlier quip. but I don't see my points as groundless rhetoric. we don't agree on a process in game. we are on opposite sides of that pole. that fact that you don't agree with me is not grounds to dismiss my ideas or points as frivolous, because i don't see yours the same way. i understand the logic behind peoples desire to have conveniences like dual spec. i just don't agree. I've raided end game content in a few games, for extended periods of time. and the ones I enjoyed the most designed world mechanics around class design, not class design around world mechanics. and IMO, dual spec is a poor fix for a bad balance between world design and class design. Edited December 23, 2011 by Elyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxiO Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I've raided end game content in a few games, for extended periods of time. and the ones I enjoyed the most designed world mechanics around class design, not class design around world mechanics. and IMO, dual spec is a poor fix for a bad balance between world design and class design. I've been reading your posts with some interest, trying to figure out the nagging sense that you were somehow missing the point. This last paragraph has enlightened me. We'll get back to that in a moment, but first of all I'd like to address your issue with class design. Skill (or talent) trees exist as a means to customise your character within the confines of its role/s, whether that be a tank, a healer, dps, CC, hybrid or whatever you wish. Well designed trees promote diversity within a specific class, which is absolutely essential. A world where every sorcerer plays exactly the same because there's only 'one' choice is a diluted and dull one. And thus, the ability to respec exists, and has existed for some time now, in both MMO's and RPG's. A mechanic which is present in TOR. I'll re-quote this: IMO, dual spec is a poor fix for a bad balance between world design and class design. There's the confusion. What you're referring to is 'respec', not dual spec. Because DS is simply a one-shot payment for the luxury of not having to grind cash to achieve something that you can already do. Are you saying you want respecs removed completely? You already stated that you've experienced the pleasures of playing a holy priest in wow. I too played a priest, and nothing was more welcome than the inclusion of the dual spec that allowed me to pick a secondary build that I could both PVP and solo PVE content with, without the need for continuous gold-farming (on top of farming for flasks and pots etc). To address another common retort abundant in this thread, it didn't matter that I had multiple alts who could all fulfil that second spec as well, or even better than my priest. I consider all of my characters to have equal value as 'joint-mains', and I love having multiple options when it comes to end-game content. If I want to jump into PVP with my healer then I should be able to do so without the need for hours of pointless grinding. Is this a game or a job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haasth Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Just throwing this out here, but as a fully specialized Combat Medic I have zero problem doing questing and I do not level slower than DPS specced players. Especially when there's AoE involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaxFelix Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 To us, it's a game. To get outside our own narrow perspective, however, to the people who make decisions, it is a product. Their motivation, righteously, is to maximize their return on their investment. So a lot of energy is wasted in arguing what is philosophically right or wrong about the dual-spec. It will come down to what most enhances the demand (that is, popularity) of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klogmonster Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 How about you just pay for the respec... It's not hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilTikiBoy Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 How about you just pay for the respec... It's not hard. Silence you!!! how dare you bring logic onto our forums!! begone!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JierKar Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I certainly feel that WoW did a great thing in allowing people to dual-spec, and I believe this game could certainly benefit similarly, albeit within a secondary class, and not to dual-spec outside of that class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxtasy Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I've raided end game content in a few games, for extended periods of time. . When I was pointing to the lack of experience, what I meant was that you obviously have not raided endgame WHILE PvPing competitively. I should have made that more clear. For all I know you were in the top WoW guild in the world or one of the most active PvPers around, but clearly not at the same time. I was. I was on a 4 night raid schedule, and was also doing the warlord grind (yes old times lol). So I would have to pay for 2 respecs a day. With raiding and PvPing this didn't leave me any time to grind. My buddies were throwing me money to respec. The dual spec option saved me from that. Now it is a staple of the MMO genre and will continue to be. BW has already stated that it will be going into the game, but I enjoy having conversations about this sort of thing. Comments like the one a couple above just make my day, where the smart-*** says "just pay the respec it isnt hard" then the next guy talks about his logic, when both of them clearly have zero knowledge about it. Hey guys, just use the (upcoming) dual spec option. It isn't hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trythe Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I do not feel that dual spec is something that we need. There is plenty of content to see if you roll a different class to make that "healer" or "tank" that you want to constantly flip back and forth on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axxtasy Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I do not feel that dual spec is something that we need. There is plenty of content to see if you roll a different class to make that "healer" or "tank" that you want to constantly flip back and forth on. Do people like you even read the threads you post in? Tell me how a DPS Warrior (sentinal/marauder) can benefit from going through the same story twice so that they can have a PvP specced and PvE specced toon. It helps to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redreximus Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Dual Spec is a great idea, they should add it in... But make it costly, lets say 500k credits or so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psykhe Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Personally, if there hasn't been any update on their plan to add dual spec by the end of the first month I will simply unsub and find something else to do with my time till they add it. And will tell them why exactly if they have a "give your reasons" form. I have better stuff to do with my time than to grind credits for respeccing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gozinya Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) no no and no, that idea that I want a toon that can do everything is messing up the game play, choose your path, and live it If you want your character to be a single use and only do one thing, thats your choice.. dont dual spec. For others who like to raid, pvp and/or PvE solo its our choice. I love healing, however PvE as healing spec is horrid. My healer is only level 20 and I'm already seeing a problem with doing missions that require me killing MoBs... lets face it, thats 90% of missions. Healer for heroics, groups, and/or raids DPS for solo.. or as a fill in for the above. Please dont be so single minded. Edited December 23, 2011 by Gozinya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drealmer Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 no you want two different characters with different abilities, you have to make two characters. you are not entitled to everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drealmer Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Dual Spec is a great idea, they should add it in... But make it costly, lets say 500k credits or so? 500k is nothing try 10 million, maybe...but even then, it still shouldn't be in the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamas Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Definitively need dual spec. Loved RIFT approach and it felt extremely good, so I can't see any valid concerns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxiO Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 no you want two different characters with different abilities, you have to make two characters. you are not entitled to everything. 500k is nothing try 10 million, maybe...but even then, it still shouldn't be in the game Some wonderful points made here, with excellent arguments to back them up. Your contributions to this discussion are both awe-inspiring and inspirational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts