Makeb shows why continuing class stories are necessary

[DarthOvertone]

For the first time since beta, I'm finding myself not wanting to play. It's all started fo feel fairly pointless.

 

I expected as much when I first heard there are no new class stories in Makeb. Personally, I thought the HK side quest was a good indication of how I would feel and respond to Makeb gameplay-wise. I loved the HK story. However, in the end, I only did the HK story on one Imp toon and one Pub.

 

Makeb will be the same for me, if I even make it through the Pub portion. The Makeb story is good, not great. The Imp story certainly was entertaining, but nothing about it made me log on wanting to do more or see what would happen next.

 

The Pub story is pretty similar so far. Just doing it for entertainment value at this point and in no rush whatsoever.

 

Doesn't help that Makeb itself is poorly designed. Sure, it's unique in comparison to the other planets, but I despise the mesa design and the fact that every bit of space is saturated by hostile NPCs. Even out of the way datacron pathways have NPCs. And I'm still trying to understand why floating mesas shake when the planet itself suffers earthquakes. lol

 

Not to mention that there is virtually no OPvP at all. This was my biggest disappointment.

 

At this stage, I'm just leveling my Imp alts through WZs, finishing their dailies/weeklies and then sort of moving on. They will reach 55 eventually. I wouldn't mind exploring the Macrobinoculars and Seeker Droid stuff for leveling purposes, but I hear players actually get stuck on these quests and can't even finish them, so they can't be counted on for XP.

 

In the future, I think it's imperative that we get some extensions of class stories, even if those are short. Eight short class story extensions would be superior to one long planetary story. Namely, kill off a companion or something. So much material in those class stories to work with. Just a shame to leave it dying on the vine.

[t_euclidus]

It feels like they bought into their own hype when developing this game. They thought this game was going to crush WoW and they'd be able to generate the revenue for future class stories. When that didn't happen, and the game turned out to be a total flop in the eyes of the majority of the gaming community, they went into recovery mode, trying to make back some of the money they invested. So that's where we are now. No new class stories ever, charging us more money for less content. You can shave a sheep countless times in its life, but you can only skin it once.

 

I've thought this at varying points. They did tell us they had more class story written/knew where it was going. And they're basically calling Makeb an interlude, which to me implies in their grand plan it's intended to serve as intermission where some of us go get snacks and the rest of us keep the seats warm. That's fine, assuming they buckle down and bring us a new chapter.

 

I suspect they're gauging the level of interest in expansions by a low-investment RotHC installment, then judging by how many F2P players shell out for that content, deciding the budget for the future expansion to bring us a new chapter. If the sub base + f2p don't buy enough copies of RotHC to make them think it's worth investing big bucks in the next chapter, we may well see the original class story plans scrapped in favor of continued 'interludes', but I think their DESIRE is for a second wind and a new chapter.

 

I honestly think the writers and creatives at BW desperately want to bring us their original vision. I'm a writer too, and I know how frustrating it is to have one's ideas nixed because they're impractical for a given timeline or won't appeal to whatever target demographic the publisher has gathered marketing info on. I don't think that's what they -want- and I don't think it's laziness as much as what was stated above.

 

They got ahead of themselves. They thought they'd finally found the WoWkiller. They hoped the Star Wars IP would hold onto fans while they went through their growing pains. And for me, it did. For a lot of you, it did. But for the vast number of people who bought this game expecting it to be bug-free and professionally handled, replete with "WoW standard" guild and grouping features, with a stable, versatile game engine from day one...it disappointed, and they unsubbed. (Obviously a lot of people unsubbed for other reasons as well.)

 

So their initial plans were predicated on far greater gains than they saw, not just in the first quarter, but the second quarter, and going on into the present. They began f2p and CM to stop the hemorrhaging of profits. It seems to have worked. My hope is that, at this stage, the creatives will be able to wrest some control back from the financial/management sector of BW/EA and make their vision happen so we can all get what we were promised at the start.

[errant_knight]

I tend to agree. I think Bioware *wants* to make the game they set out to make. I also understand the financial realities, which may mean that if class chapters were to continue, it would have to be one planet at a time, rather than the complete chapters we were given initially. That's fine. I don't need to have it delivered this year or even next. Heck, even the year after that, if we know they're working on complete chapters for all the classes. I don't even need it to be free, even with a subscription. Charge for it, if that's what it takes to make it happen. That's fine. As long as it's written, animated and acted as well as the first chapters and my characters stay in character, rather than drifting in and out of it as they did on Makeb, I'd be happy to both wait and pay. I just need to know it's happening to feel motivated to continue playing as much as I have been. Edited May 20, 2013 by errant_knight

[Flintfire]

I would have waited an extra month or two to personalize Makeb for each classes storyline. Like a chapter 4 for each of us. Whether it be the biggest bounty ever (a whole planet) or smuggling isotope-5 out of a heavily guarded compound, there are so many opportunities. Instead we got one of those planetary quests that every class can do on most planets. Its way more in depth, but that's what it is in a nutshell.

[Projawa]

100% agreed with the OP. I have little motivation to play Makeb on my alts. SWTOR starting to feel more treadmill and less immersive.

[Kilora]

I would have waited an extra month or two to personalize Makeb for each classes storyline. Like a chapter 4 for each of us. Whether it be the biggest bounty ever (a whole planet) or smuggling isotope-5 out of a heavily guarded compound, there are so many opportunities. Instead we got one of those planetary quests that every class can do on most planets. Its way more in depth, but that's what it is in a nutshell.

 

Probably would've taken a hell of a lot more than 2 months.

[dipstik]

from what i can tell, bioware has NO INTENTION of giving us more class story. this is REALLY SAD to me, because i made a number of decisions hoping they would affect my character...

 

i talked to designers that said its hard because some class stories were ended in a manner that would be difficult to continue, because the arc closed. in an interview i read that they were going to make stories shared in the future (masking it in other terms that you esxcite rather than sadden)

[Jenzali]

The qualities that make a good story "good" are the same, irrespective of the medium.

 

I strongly disagree with this, but lack the eloquence to express why. I'll point you to two articles by Alexander Freed, the author of the much-beloved Agent storyline.

 

http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/03/21/craft-sessions-developing-meaningful-player-character-arcs-in-a-branching-narrative-format/

http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/03/17/of-course-no-ones-paying-attention-subtlety-and-narrative-design-in-video-games/

 

What makes an excellent branching narrative (i.e. a BioWare story) is most definitely not the same thing that makes an excellent movie good.

 

Makeb could have been a decent "movie", but it really missed the mark for a lot of people who were used to the lovingly crafted personal class storylines where your choices made a difference and no two playthroughs were the same. I've experienced the class stories of 3 Troopers, 2 Bounty Hunters, 2 Jedi Knights, 2 Jedi Consulars... the list goes on. And in no case does it even feel like I'm "replaying" the same story (more accurately, "rewatching a movie") because the responses and choices feel entirely different. Even which companion you choose to adventure with makes a world of difference. Makeb, on the other hand, was a chore before it was even finished and trying to bring a 2nd character through the same story with absolutely no differences is like masochism to me. It felt like finishing an okay movie, and then immediately re-watching it right after.

 

Still, the main reason for Makeb not feeling as engaging as the 1-50 class storylines is because of motivation. I've repeated myself in many posts before (and others have too), but it honestly feels like 3 out of the 4 classes on each side have no convincing reason to even go to Makeb given the events that occurred in the finales of their class storylines. Even having a single class quest for each class would have made a world of difference in providing a convincing motivation for the player characters. e.g. "an important artifact has been unearthed during Makeb's drilling, and the Inquisitor will go to any lengths to secure its power for themself"

Edited May 20, 2013 by Jenzali

[errant_knight]

from what i can tell, bioware has NO INTENTION of giving us more class story. this is REALLY SAD to me, because i made a number of decisions hoping they would affect my character...

 

i talked to designers that said its hard because some class stories were ended in a manner that would be difficult to continue, because the arc closed. in an interview i read that they were going to make stories shared in the future (masking it in other terms that you esxcite rather than sadden)

 

Actually, all these stories were written to be open ended. They contain unresolved conflicts, implication of further actions and place the characters in new positions which virtually beg to be developed further. They were clearly intended to be a lead-in to other things. Not only that, but events on Makeb drastically change things for some characters. (ie.Sith warrior), although any further discussion of that would be spoilerific, so let's not.

 

In any case, none of the stories were closed arcs, they only resolved the major plotline. That's part of what makes the decision to focus on planet/faction stories (and by focus, most of us believe thay mean 'only produce') so difficult to stomach.

 

Even if they *had* tied up all the loose ends and potential repercussions, it wouldn't change the effect of discontinuing further stories.

Edited May 20, 2013 by errant_knight

[VigDiath]

This is the only reason I keep supporting the Cartel Market and remain a paid subscriber. I'm hoping any funds I pay into the game will go back into more class story content so that they can pay voice actors, writers, developers and everyone else needs a piece of the pie to keep this game going.

 

More class story, better and improved pvp content, something to do on the side like playing pazaak in cantinas, swoop races, gambling, off the rail space content...all stuff that can keep the game going in a healthy direction and keep players happy. And please don't say macro-binoculars and that side quest. Just poking around in an area waiting for something to pop up is not fun. I did that until Corelia and stopped after that.

 

I like the game and want a reason to keep playing.

[Projawa]

I strongly disagree with this, but lack the eloquence to express why. I'll point you to two articles by Alexander Freed, the author of the much-beloved Agent storyline.

 

http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/03/21/craft-sessions-developing-meaningful-player-character-arcs-in-a-branching-narrative-format/

http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/03/17/of-course-no-ones-paying-attention-subtlety-and-narrative-design-in-video-games/

 

What makes an excellent branching narrative (i.e. a BioWare story) is most definitely not the same thing that makes an excellent movie good.

 

Makeb could have been a decent "movie", but it really missed the mark for a lot of people who were used to the lovingly crafted personal class storylines where your choices made a difference and no two playthroughs were the same. I've experienced the class stories of 3 Troopers, 2 Bounty Hunters, 2 Jedi Knights, 2 Jedi Consulars... the list goes on. And in no case does it even feel like I'm "replaying" the same story (more accurately, "rewatching a movie") because the responses and choices feel entirely different. Even which companion you choose to adventure with makes a world of difference. Makeb, on the other hand, was a chore before it was even finished and trying to bring a 2nd character through the same story with absolutely no differences is like masochism to me. It felt like finishing an okay movie, and then immediately re-watching it right after.

 

Still, the main reason for Makeb not feeling as engaging as the 1-50 class storylines is because of motivation. I've repeated myself in many posts before (and others have too), but it honestly feels like 3 out of the 4 classes on each side have no convincing reason to even go to Makeb given the events that occurred in the finales of their class storylines.

 

Here's his article on the imperial agent. Interesting read:

http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/03/11/the-imperial-agent-inspiration-and-science-fiction-espionage-part-1/

[t_euclidus]

My hope is for full-priced expansions in future which provide a handful of new planets (2-4) and form a new chapter for each class. I expect to pay about 40 dollars for it (based on expansion prices in some other major budget MMOs -- perhaps offering us a subscriber discount as with RotHC). If it gave me a new chapter and additional elder game content with class-specific story and a new companion or two (hopefully herosexual to bring the promise for SGR companions to fruition), I would be full-on SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY.

 

By NO MEANS do I ask for or expect this kind of content to be free. I do not want it to be free. I do not want it to be rushed. My hope (are you listening, BioWare?) is that they will announce development on such an expansion with an ETA of a year to 18 months. In the meantime, their teams will continue to update basic content patches and CM patches. However, a development team will go to work on a major expansion with a reasonably high pricetag to make certain they're able to do it right. And we'll continue playing and leveling alts so that we can be ready when that expansion hits.

 

I, for one, did not expect much from a 10 dollar (subscriber pre-order) priced expansion. Makeb is like my Dragon Age: Awakenings. It's ok the first time through, but not infinitely replayable like DA:O.

 

I also do not expect ANY of that major content free, and I'm cool with waiting for a full expansion, if I know it's coming and will deliver more adventures on par with the initial story. I'm cool with shelling out for it. In my opinion, asking for that for free or for the pittance that RotHC was priced at is naive. I'm willing to pay for quality, especially if it's so replayable it becomes the only game I care about for a few months.

 

All BW needs to tell me is that it's coming, and it'll be cool, and I'll need to be patient and shell out, but it's in the pipeline. You wanna keep us hooked, BW? Give us some tasty bait, and you can take your time reeling us in.

[errant_knight]

Exactly.

 

Side note: I want to thank the vast majority of posters in this thread for keeping things civil and unflailish. Also for the interesting links!

Edited May 20, 2013 by errant_knight

[Jenzali]

Seriously? You know what I call lazy? 99.9% of SWTOR's side quests prior to Makeb. I mean, how many times can you go through the endless variation of "shut down the power grid", "re-route the comm signals", "upload the coordinates", "slice the navicomputer", "download the astronavigation charts" quests on offer—all of which boiled down to nothing more than kill x amount of mobs, then click a button at the end—before your stomach starts churning? I, for one, am glad we got rid of those. Taking them on, especially all at once, deviated our attentions from the actual problems at hand (the class quests) and offered no real narrative impetus to complete them.

 

Side quests offer flavor because of the NPCs you talk to. They and their dialogue is what makes this world feel alive, because let's face it, the game engine can not handle having lots of NPCs, vehicles, or beasts moving around everywhere to make the world feel alive.

 

Why is it that almost no one can even remember the names of the main NPCs of either storyline in Makeb (other than Lord Cytharat because of all the homophobic jokes in general chat)? These characters, especially Katha Niar and Lemda whoever are so bland and forgettable, yet they stay with you throughout the story.

 

On the other hand, everyone remembers the quirky little side-quest characters, even if you only see them once. They're so unique and memorable and provide amazing flavor for the levelling experience. In fact, I'd wager that anyone reading these little bullet points would instantly recall to mind the face and voice of these NPCs, if not their name as well:

- The batty old woman who asks you to perform rite of blood in the Korriban academy.

- The fat Sith lord dissecting Tu'kata for god knows what reason.

- The Imperial officer mentioning "ergonomic chairs" in a list of evil things that Lord Grathan is creating.

- "Well, what are you waiting for? Go and get my Sithspawn!"

- "Welcome to Var'soonta's many treasures. Do you know the Black Death who slaughters my people?"

- Nem'ro's beastmaster on Hutta who says that "the big guy" wants his own Rancor too.

- "Welcome to Taris. On behalf of the Galactic Republic, I want to thank you for joining us in this historic project."

 

These characters were so memorable that I didn't care that my mission was to go out and kill 10 womp rats or click on 5 terminals. I wanted to do the quest to see what they'd say when I returned.

[t_euclidus]

Why is it that almost no one can even remember the names of the main NPCs of either storyline in Makeb (other than Lord Cytharat because of all the homophobic jokes in general chat)? These characters, especially Katha Niar and Lemda whoever are so bland and forgettable, yet they stay with you throughout the story.

 

(snip)

 

These characters were so memorable that I didn't care that my mission was to go out and kill 10 womp rats or click on 5 terminals. I wanted to do the quest to see what they'd say when I returned.

 

QFT.

 

(Although I remember Lord Cytharat because I'm in love with him and want to adopt a bunch of orphaned Evocii to raise together aboard my D-5 Mantis so Mako will finally understand I'm just not that into her. Don't hate.)

[tanerb]

If first three chapters were Dragon Age :Origins, Makeb was Dragon Age 2. Rushed, recycled and lazy designed. Bioware, same old, same old.

[t_euclidus]

If first three chapters were Dragon Age :Origins, Makeb was Dragon Age 2. Rushed, recycled and lazy designed. Bioware, same old, same old.

 

Makeb was DA:Awakenings. Low-priced DLC meant to tide one over, very little origin-specific content.

 

I actually liked DA2, but I didn't see it as being a true successor to DA:O. I'm VERY much hoping that future full expansions (not DLC-priced) will be more on par with an Act II of the basic game and less a loosely-connected sequel. Given that it will be continuing our character's story (whether it's class-based story or faction story), the parallel with DA:2, which forced you into a new role and not a continuation of your warden, doesn't fully hold up. Not saying BW wouldn't try to pull that in single-player, but in an MMO, it can't happen that way because of the game's premise.

 

So I'm crossing my fingers, and if they abandon proper development of future SWTOR expansions, I'll find my fun elsewhere eventually. I want to give them a chance and time to get a real expansion together before I bail, though. When they're good, they're very, very good. When they're bad, they're mediocre.

[errant_knight]

To be fair, there isn't anything wrong with the characters of Katha and Cytharet. Lemda was more of a trope, in my opinion. Katha and Cytharet had interesting backstories and seem like they'd be equally interesting to get to know, if only we were allowed to do so the way we were with our other companions. There simply wasn't enough conversation with them. That's particularly true of Cytharet if one is taking the romance option. It would have been nice to have a few actual conversations with the man before hitting on him.

 

There could have been a great deal more interaction with all the npcs, in general. We didn't even get to talk to most of the people we came in contact with about anything but a direct mission. Quest givers in the first chapters tended to share more of their beliefs and goals with us before sending us on our way.

 

Oh, poop. I just derailed my own thread. Back to the point, lol! Makeb was fine for what it was, it just wasn't enough except as what they called it, an interlude. It wasn't something that can replace the class stories, even if it hadn't been light on dialogue.

Edited May 20, 2013 by errant_knight

[Cavegeta]

Side quests offer flavor because of the NPCs you talk to. They and their dialogue is what makes this world feel alive, because let's face it, the game engine can not handle having lots of NPCs, vehicles, or beasts moving around everywhere to make the world feel alive.

 

On the other hand, everyone remembers the quirky little side-quest characters, even if you only see them once. They're so unique and memorable and provide amazing flavor for the levelling experience. In fact, I'd wager that anyone reading these little bullet points would instantly recall to mind the face and voice of these NPCs, if not their name as well:

- The batty old woman who asks you to perform rite of blood in the Korriban academy.

- The fat Sith lord dissecting Tu'kata for god knows what reason.

- The Imperial officer mentioning "ergonomic chairs" in a list of evil things that Lord Grathan is creating.

- "Well, what are you waiting for? Go and get my Sithspawn!"

- "Welcome to Var'soonta's many treasures. Do you know the Black Death who slaughters my people?"

- Nem'ro's beastmaster on Hutta who says that "the big guy" wants his own Rancor too.

- "Welcome to Taris. On behalf of the Galactic Republic, I want to thank you for joining us in this historic project."

 

These characters were so memorable that I didn't care that my mission was to go out and kill 10 womp rats or click on 5 terminals. I wanted to do the quest to see what they'd say when I returned.

 

My favorite was "How was I to know they were planning my surprise party" on Dromund Kass.

[Omisri]

Makeb to me was kinda like doing a SM Flash point solo. It was good while it lasted on the initial play through. But they could of done a lot more with it like different classes secured components / areas/ whatever, that all linked together (as with the class stories). Unfortunately, its pretty much as my opening sentence... Or like doing the planetary quests. But then I suppose that's what Makeb was built for, one big planetary quest.

[iamthehoyden]

As a brief pause in the real story, Makeb was fine. The reason I level alts, however, is for class story. Class and companion storis are what makes this game immersive, to me. They are what makes me care about my characters.

 

It would be very welcome to find out if class stories are in development, or if we can expect the next "story" expansion to be more of this Makeb-style.

 

Very much /signed.

[Alec_Fortescue]

I want new chapters similar in length to chapter 1 for reach class. Regular instalments. One class after another. All paid dlc.

[maxetius]

I want new chapters similar in length to chapter 1 for reach class. Regular instalments. One class after another. All paid dlc.

 

I'd be down. That way I can pick and choose which ones I want to play.

 

Never happen (class stories are done) but nice idea.

[Amaranth]

I want new chapters similar in length to chapter 1 for reach class. Regular instalments. One class after another. All paid dlc.

 

Honestly this was my vision for how SWTOR would be back in 2009. I'm still surprised they haven't done this yet.

[Nutluck]

I am fairly new to the game only been playing a few months. Right now what I most love about the game are the stories especially the class stories and companion iterations. Makeb isn't bad but it isn't great either. As the OP said, it is fun to do once on both imp and rep side but thats it. While the rest of the game I found fun to run at least once for each of the main 8 classes. Giving a lot of replayability, which for me is key to keep me playing a game. I hope they decided to in the next expansion do another chapter for each classes story arc. Even if they only did one a year that would be enough to keep my around for years to come and spending money on the game.