Makeb shows why continuing class stories are necessary

[Cavegeta]

I honestly, think that as long as the money supply is stable with possible increases in revenue, Class Stories are inevitable though it might take some more time. It's probably the one thing everyone that plays the game likes. I would say make it large (at least big as Chapter 1). Focus on class stories with minimal side quests for a cost and add planetary quests akin to the bonus series later (subscribers would get those free).

[venomlash]

Agreed. The story in this game is what really sets it apart from derping around in EQ2 or STO or Neverwinter. But while the Makeb storyline (Pub side at least) was pretty awesome as far as planetary storylines go, we really need some more class storylines.

 

I'm going to bring up the suggestion that we have daily or weekly endgame class-specific random missions, where a companion or major story NPC needs something done. Maybe General Garza needs an Imperial bunker stormed, maybe Mako gets wind of a bounty riding in on the next shuttle, maybe Doc wants to get a close look at an outbreak somewhere. It would really fill the gap nicely in between major updates by giving us a chance to hear back from people we know and talk with our companions.

[errant_knight]

Agreed. The story in this game is what really sets it apart from derping around in EQ2 or STO or Neverwinter. But while the Makeb storyline (Pub side at least) was pretty awesome as far as planetary storylines go, we really need some more class storylines.

 

I'm going to bring up the suggestion that we have daily or weekly endgame class-specific random missions, where a companion or major story NPC needs something done. Maybe General Garza needs an Imperial bunker stormed, maybe Mako gets wind of a bounty riding in on the next shuttle, maybe Doc wants to get a close look at an outbreak somewhere. It would really fill the gap nicely in between major updates by giving us a chance to hear back from people we know and talk with our companions.

 

This is an excellent suggestion.Class story content takes years to properly develop. I don't think any of us would want it otherwise, either. What we're asking for is class stories of the same quality as the first 3 and for all 8 classes. That's a huge amount of work. Something like this would give us a nice bit of story without being too onerous and would be a nice addition to the planetary quests that could be put out more regularly--hopefully with some tweaks that would make it seem more like something all the classes might be found doing.

[ZirusZero]

This is an excellent suggestion.Class story content takes years to properly develop. I don't think any of us would want it otherwise, either. What we're asking for is class stories of the same quality as the first 3 and for all 8 classes. That's a huge amount of work. Something like this would give us a nice bit of story without being too onerous and would be a nice addition to the planetary quests that could be put out more regularly--hopefully with some tweaks that would make it seem more like something all the classes might be found doing.

I personally wouldn't care as long as they make it happen.

[Damask_Rose]

My hope is for full-priced expansions in future which provide a handful of new planets (2-4) and form a new chapter for each class. I expect to pay about 40 dollars for it (based on expansion prices in some other major budget MMOs -- perhaps offering us a subscriber discount as with RotHC). If it gave me a new chapter and additional elder game content with class-specific story and a new companion or two (hopefully herosexual to bring the promise for SGR companions to fruition), I would be full-on SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY.

 

By NO MEANS do I ask for or expect this kind of content to be free. I do not want it to be free. I do not want it to be rushed. My hope (are you listening, BioWare?) is that they will announce development on such an expansion with an ETA of a year to 18 months. In the meantime, their teams will continue to update basic content patches and CM patches. However, a development team will go to work on a major expansion with a reasonably high pricetag to make certain they're able to do it right. And we'll continue playing and leveling alts so that we can be ready when that expansion hits.

 

I, for one, did not expect much from a 10 dollar (subscriber pre-order) priced expansion. Makeb is like my Dragon Age: Awakenings. It's ok the first time through, but not infinitely replayable like DA:O.

 

I also do not expect ANY of that major content free, and I'm cool with waiting for a full expansion, if I know it's coming and will deliver more adventures on par with the initial story. I'm cool with shelling out for it. In my opinion, asking for that for free or for the pittance that RotHC was priced at is naive. I'm willing to pay for quality, especially if it's so replayable it becomes the only game I care about for a few months.

 

All BW needs to tell me is that it's coming, and it'll be cool, and I'll need to be patient and shell out, but it's in the pipeline. You wanna keep us hooked, BW? Give us some tasty bait, and you can take your time reeling us in.

 

Nicely put!

[Machine-Elf]

Side quests offer flavor because of the NPCs you talk to. They and their dialogue is what makes this world feel alive, because let's face it, the game engine can not handle having lots of NPCs, vehicles, or beasts moving around everywhere to make the world feel alive.

 

Why is it that almost no one can even remember the names of the main NPCs of either storyline in Makeb (other than Lord Cytharat because of all the homophobic jokes in general chat)? These characters, especially Katha Niar and Lemda whoever are so bland and forgettable, yet they stay with you throughout the story.

 

On the other hand, everyone remembers the quirky little side-quest characters, even if you only see them once. They're so unique and memorable and provide amazing flavor for the levelling experience. In fact, I'd wager that anyone reading these little bullet points would instantly recall to mind the face and voice of these NPCs, if not their name as well:

- The batty old woman who asks you to perform rite of blood in the Korriban academy.

- The fat Sith lord dissecting Tu'kata for god knows what reason.

- The Imperial officer mentioning "ergonomic chairs" in a list of evil things that Lord Grathan is creating.

- "Well, what are you waiting for? Go and get my Sithspawn!"

- "Welcome to Var'soonta's many treasures. Do you know the Black Death who slaughters my people?"

- Nem'ro's beastmaster on Hutta who says that "the big guy" wants his own Rancor too.

- "Welcome to Taris. On behalf of the Galactic Republic, I want to thank you for joining us in this historic project."

 

These characters were so memorable that I didn't care that my mission was to go out and kill 10 womp rats or click on 5 terminals. I wanted to do the quest to see what they'd say when I returned.

People's penchant to make their case with a line of reasoning that's diametrically opposed to their argument will never cease to amaze me. You mentioned how no one ever remembers the names of NPCs in Makeb. This is wrong. I remember Lord Cytharat, and it's not because of the crass jokes in general chat (which I've never even heard), it's because he is in fact memorable; he has an actual character arc, for one, unlike the handful of characters you provided as an example, whose names I'm not even close to recalling. Don't worry though, the same is true for virtually every other NPC in the game prior to Makeb.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Machine-Elf]

I strongly disagree with this, but lack the eloquence to express why. I'll point you to two articles by Alexander Freed, the author of the much-beloved Agent storyline.

 

http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/03/21/craft-sessions-developing-meaningful-player-character-arcs-in-a-branching-narrative-format/

http://www.alexanderfreed.com/2013/03/17/of-course-no-ones-paying-attention-subtlety-and-narrative-design-in-video-games/

 

What makes an excellent branching narrative (i.e. a BioWare story) is most definitely not the same thing that makes an excellent movie good.

 

Makeb could have been a decent "movie", but it really missed the mark for a lot of people who were used to the lovingly crafted personal class storylines where your choices made a difference and no two playthroughs were the same. I've experienced the class stories of 3 Troopers, 2 Bounty Hunters, 2 Jedi Knights, 2 Jedi Consulars... the list goes on. And in no case does it even feel like I'm "replaying" the same story (more accurately, "rewatching a movie") because the responses and choices feel entirely different. Even which companion you choose to adventure with makes a world of difference. Makeb, on the other hand, was a chore before it was even finished and trying to bring a 2nd character through the same story with absolutely no differences is like masochism to me. It felt like finishing an okay movie, and then immediately re-watching it right after.

I'm sorry, but this is a bizarre post to me. It's common knowledge that "player choice" is virtually non-existent in SWTOR, to the degree that, more often than not, player's responses trigger the exact same reaction from NPCs, regardless of the choice he or she made.

 

What is this rich amount of player choice you're referring to (the lack of which is also, ironically, one of the criticisms most often hurdled at BioWare's direction), this illusive treasure-trove of narrative ramifications based on player choice which I—in my meager four playthroughs of the game—have yet to come across...?

Edited May 21, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[errant_knight]

Maybe dial the snark back a bit, huh? Just a tad. We don't have to go there to discuss this. Edited May 21, 2013 by errant_knight

[clearsighted]

Without the class stories, I would never have played this game.

[Shoogli]

[...] (I'm looking at you, fade to black travel on Makeb) [...]

 

OMG I was so disapointed about that : I was so happy kinda to be about to fly around mesas and pillars and those sky islands... Very sad panda here as well...

 

 

And then the fact there is no free zoom with the binoculars when using them in spots where there is not especially a droid to spot or an antennae or radar dish... Just a little zoom and a little FOV change would have been so awesome...

 

My favorite was "How was I to know they were planning my surprise party" on Dromund Kass.

 

This is THE side quest I played on several characters and NEVER space-barred !!!

[Jenzali]

I'm sorry, but this is a bizarre post to me. It's common knowledge that "player choice" is virtually non-existent in SWTOR, to the degree that, more often than not, player's responses trigger the exact same reaction from NPCs, regardless of the choice he or she made.

 

What is this rich amount of player choice you're referring to (the lack of which is also, ironically, one of the criticisms most often hurdled at BioWare's direction), this illusive treasure of narrative ramifications based on player choice which I—in my meager four playthroughs of the game—have yet to come across...?

 

Your mindset must differ greatly from mine. Aside from PvP, class stories are the main thing I do. I constantly delete and re-roll characters to play these class stories, and never once has it felt the same even if I do the same class. Sometimes I even try every dialogue branch of every conversation. These stories are some of BioWare's best work, especially given the constraints of being an MMO and not a single-player game.

 

There is plenty of player choice, especially in the Imperial Agent storyline. Often it's not immediately noticeable for many people. Maybe it's not universe-changing, but it's still significant for your character. Sometimes this player choice is so extensive that it actually spans both planetary and class storylines. One of the many examples I have is the Corellia storyline with the Bounty Hunter, where the outcome actually depends on the order of how you do your planetary and class quests, because

 

 

Instating Darbin Sull as the prime minister of Corellia can only be done with a light-side decision in the planetary storyline after killing the Corellian Jedi Council, and then if you actually backtrack to a previous point in your class story, he will give an address to the leaders of Corellia which you don't see at all if the previous prime minister is still instated, and Darth Tormen will kill him afterwards

 

 

There is a gold mine of hidden content in this game waiting to be discovered, and it's easy to see why having such extensive player choice or hidden dialogue was expensive for them to develop and test. Did you know that when sometimes if you enter a class phase and a cutscene immediately starts, if you Esc out of it, you can occasionally discover some additional dialogue (or at least flavor "right-click" responses) with some of the NPCs in the phase? Or talking to them, or other NPCs in the phase again after they've given you a brief?

 

Another example is becoming a Mandalorian. I loved this choice because about 20 or 30 NPCs across both class, planet, and side quests would actually acknowledge it and provide different responses depending on if you were or weren't. On Makeb, Darth Marr mentions it once to you on your ship and then you're back to being a generic Imperial hero.

 

Admittedly, some of this player choice requires a little digging to discover. Even if there isn't a "light/dark" decision, many options can result in wildly different outcomes, such as the many romance options that can only be done if you don't just blindly choose [Flirt] options, like Lady Aitalla of House Girard.

 

So you can't really argue that there's no player choice, because you haven't tried looking for it. The dialogue wheel in this game and Mass Effect was designed to accomodate both of our playstyles - a more obvious path for the person who wishes to see the story without having to think too much, and a host of detailed dialogue and story branches for those who care greatly about their characters and like to explore every nook and cranny of both the game world and the dialogue branching.

 

I could list out thousands of examples but I don't think it would matter. Even if there are 3 dialogue options, and the only thing that changes between them is the subsequent NPC response, this is still very important to those of us who enjoy building a character, in particular roleplayers and people on RP servers, and having them grow through their storyline. Every response matters, because it's part of your character.

 

Makeb did away with this because it is literally the holy grail of linearity and genericness. There's a handful of light/dark decisions, and even these that don't even change the story.

 

For example, killing or saving Lord Cytharat. Either way, he is out of the story.

 

All the classes say practically the same lines and it no longer sounds like my character is speaking. During the Makeb quests, my fiercely independent Mandalorian Bounty Hunter was droning on about "we" and "us as the great Empire" as if he was an Imperial grunt. On the other hand, each and every side quest in the 1-50 experience had a response that could fit my characters.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Jenzali

[Machine-Elf]

I've never played the Imperial Agent storyline through to completion. I understand it offers a greater illusion of choice to the player as respects to other classes, but I suspect the difference is marginal at best (wouldn't make much sense for it to be otherwise).

 

I'll have to put some of the examples you gave to the test, but honestly I'd be shocked if a game that can't even bother to program NPCs to react to choice of species appropriately ("the Cathar are a race of a feline-looking creatures" said the soldier to my Cathar) took the order in which quests are done into account in any way, shape or form.

 

Just the other day I was leveling on Belsavis and met several characters who spoke to me about the Dread Masters as if my knowledge of their existence was a foregone conclusion, even though I had yet to be introduced to them in-game. Later on others would refer to my freeing them, even though I had done nothing of the sort. Also, I would run into an ancient machine, which referred to itself as Mother, that claimed to have destroyed all of the galaxy's remaining Rakata despite the fact that I would later run into them several times over throughout the course of my leveling experience on that planet. Examples of similar scenarios in which the narrative of the game discombobulates into an inconsistent, incoherent mess, abound.

 

You mentioned how much money was spent on player choice. Yes, a lot of money was spent on it. The problem is, all of it was dumped; that vast, intricate array of choices are simply not present in the game's current iteration. Tragically, the original vision BioWare had for SWTOR was deemed too costly and discarded as a means to keep up with a tight release schedule. Hopefully we'll be able to see this grandiose vision reimplemented someday—though I seriously doubt it, considering the game's current direction—but until then we'll have to make do with the incongruous, bare-boned mess of a narrative we have now.

 

At least Makeb took the time to ensure some of its supporting characters had an arc, that each one of the players' responses actually triggered different reactions from NPCs, that cutscenes felt actually staged and dynamic, and that the central narrative was taut and focused...

 

Am I against class-quests in principle? Of course not! Heck, if they do it right, I'd MUCH prefer to have them. But if the choice is between either having smaller, more contained, but vastly better executed stories like Makeb, and the drivel we got leading up to it? Well then, sorry, but my answer is Makeb.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[SW_display_name]

<mega snip>

Awesome post, and nailed what keeps me coming back with new characters again and again.

 

WoW made this same mistake — it decided "no one likes leveling", so it gutted the clunky but lovingly-crafted original world and replaced it with a rushed, shallow, horrible paste-over. On top of completely trivializing all leveling content from top to bottom with an "oh, well" attitude.

 

Then wondering, "Gosh it's weird, people are only logging in to raid, then they log out and say they're bored". Well, duh. You destroyed everything that felt fun and rewarding about the leveling process and character-building process, and gave us tedious "dailies" and "mini games" and act surprised no one really cares.

 

I'm not saying that's identical to what SWTOR is doing, but it has a similar flavor: the devs spend so much time staring at the end-game balance that I think they take a "meh, we're done with that" attitude toward the leveling process and forget how important it is for continued interest and replay value.

 

Stupid minigames do not create as much replay interest as just making the character-building process feel exciting, deep, rewarding.

[Fantazm]

Without the class stories, I would never have played this game.

 

yeah this.

[SW_display_name]

Without the class stories, I would never have played this game.

Q F T.

 

I've found a lot of fun in many aspects of the game since subbing, but without the Class Story gimmick, I would have logged out after a couple hours and never even subbed.

 

The immersive storytelling sucked me in — not the "ok" gameplay, or cute little planetary side missions (Makeb feels like an entire planet of "Help, a rancor stole my socks"), and definitely not fluffy nonsense like "seeker droids".

 

I went through my first class quests on my Inquisitor and was just blown away. I subbed right away, deleted WoW, and never looked back. I couldn't wait to get home each day and see what happened next. I still feel that way as I move through my 6th class story now.

 

Remove that? I'm sorry, but it becomes just another MMO, and lightsabers aren't enough to justify it.

[Jenzali]

I've never played the Imperial Agent storyline through to completion. I understand it offers a greater illusion of choice to the player as respects to other classes, but I suspect the difference is marginal at best (wouldn't make much sense for it to be otherwise).

 

Play it before you judge. Out of curiosity, which class stories have you actually finished, and which paths did you take?

 

People give a lot of hate towards "illusion of choice" but as Alexander Freed (the author of the Agent storyline) said, give meaningful narrative branches wherever possible, but when that is not feasible the illusion of choice goes a very, very long way towards giving players great immersion and the feeling of roleplaying a character.

 

Yes, I'm aware that you can become the Emperor's Wrath regardless of which decisions you make. But it matters to the player whether they did it by choking everyone who so much as spoke to them, or by trying to quietly reform the Empire from within. Or whether they started out dark, but after the event on Tatooine decided that their character should rethink their philosophy.

 

In fact, this quote from Alexander Freed himself sums up my feelings towards Makeb and the Bounty Hunter not acting like himself, especially the bolded part:

 

The crux of an RPG is choice. Story choice, character-building choice... even the illusion of choice is vital when actual choice isn't possible. The player character's development and inner conflict can be no different -- thus, any character arc focusing on the player can have no fixed outcome.

 

In other words, we can't know if the player is going to create the story of a struggling hero, a tragic fall, or a genuine saint. We shouldn't try to know. There are plenty of other storytelling media for that.

 

In fact, another scenario that can cause RPGs to fail to deliver a compelling player character arc involves well-intentioned designers -- aware that a changing character provides some of the best drama -- forcing a specific set of changes upon the player character regardless of the player's choices. That is, the player character is shown to experience a specific reaction -- or a set of reactions -- without player input.

 

This can damage or destroy the empathetic relationship between player and player character as control, once the keystone of the story experience, is wrested away... often accompanied by the player angrily shouting, "My character would never say that!"

 

The feelings you've expressed, Machine-Elf, seem to be the opposite of what most RPG players feel when going through a branching narrative, and seem to be more along the lines of an MMO player who is more concerned with rewards. Not that it's a bad thing - this is an MMO afterall. But there are things that are more important than just the "outcome", you know, blue, red, or green explosion in ME3. There's also the inner struggle of the character and their growth over the course of the entire story, according to how you, the player, chooses.

 

Eric Peterson, RE: Imperial Agent storyline:

 

First of all, I'm a huge fan of the Imperial Agent storyline in Star Wars: The Old Republic, precisely because it allowed me to play out a character arc that was a little more complex than what you normally see in MMO storytelling. In my case, my Agent started out as a loyal servant of the Empire, but certain events (without giving away too many spoilers) eventually pushed me to abandon that loyalty. At the end of the game, I literally agonized over a decision about whether to hand a certain item over to a certain person, even though it was the end of the game and I knew that decision wouldn't have any effect on anything. For my own personal sense of satisfaction, I felt like I had to make the right choice.

 

That being said, I think the idea of player choice is an interesting one. As others have said, many games really only give players the illusion of choice, since it doesn't make any difference "in the end". My question would be, is the conclusion the only thing that matters? If each player ends up at the same endpoint, does that mean that all the choices they made getting there are invalid? I don't think it does. Mass Effect 3 got a lot of grief for offering players "three different light shows" as their ending, but I found that criticism a little unfair. I'll admit, I was angry and slightly unsatisfied after the original ending, but after having a year to think about it, it doesn't really bother me.

 

Yes, if you meet a certain set of conditions, you essentially get the same ending no matter what you did in the 80+ hours prior, but that doesn't make the story any less powerful for me. The choice on Vermire has zero effect on gameplay, but that doesn't make it any less gut-wrenching. And while Shepard didn't have a "character arc" in the traditional sense, I found it equally satisfying to watch the character arcs of characters like Mordin, Legion, Garrus, and even Navigator Presley.

 

Getting back to the subject of player choice - I think that sometimes these choices suffer from poor writing and cliched archetypes that aren't believable on either end of the spectrum. As much as I love Knights of the Old Republic, many times your choices essentially boil down to "kick the puppy" or "save the orphanage". When writers only give players a choice between two extremes, writers can't be surprised when the majority of the players choose the same extreme 99% of the time. This is especially true when the choices are often comically obvious "Good Choice" "Bad Choice" scenarios. If you really want to create the conditions for narrative arcs, I think you have to look at the conditions that drive characters to change their behavior, and then create those conditions for the player.

 

Example: Let's look at a typical player who has no interest in a character arc. Let's call him "The Paladin". This is the player who would save every village and do every side quest to save a kitten from a tree if given the opportunity. If you want to challenge them to deviate from their behavior, don't be afraid to put in a scenario where the "good" decision has unintended consequences. For example: at one point in the story, you have the choice to kill or spare an individual who some in your party suspect may be up to no good. For the sake of ambiguity, let's say they haven't done anything wrong...yet. But after you spare them, they end up killing a fan favorite NPC ally. Does this experience make the player jaded and cold, and will they strike down every prisoner they take in the future? Or will they continue to be guided by their moral compass? If they do start going down that darker path, how do their companions react?

 

Bottom line: If players are never given a reason to deviate from their behavior, they're never going to do it. If you want to see heroes fall into darkness, and villains redeem themselves, the writing needs to provide a reason for that to happen.

 

Makeb failed to even offer the illusion of choice, which is why I found it to be not compelling. In fact, it didn't even try to offer the illusion of choice. It did the exact opposite (in my opinion) - remove all choice and force 8 diverse characters to go through a certain series of patriotic events without barely giving them any real motivation, with a story of incredible linearity and a failed "one-size-fits-all" feeling.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Jenzali

[NatashaTerenzio]

/signed in the blood of greedy bastards who WON'T CONTINUE THE FRAKKING STORY!

 

I tried WoW it bored me to death so I never got into it. The only thing that keeps me in Star Wars is the story content. I don't even remember half the crap that went on in Makeb I wasn't impressed, just another planet storyline. I continue to play, and grind, and gear up for the hope that my class story, and the one of my companions will continue. Holy crap Bioware I liked the story so much I stopped writing the third novel in my book series to let my imagination play in fan fiction. Do you not understand the importance of this piece to your game? Do you not care?

 

Should I get confirmation that CLASS story's will not continue, you're not getting this gamers money n-e-more. In fact I'm not even playing.

 

Perhaps tis time for a strongly worded journalistic piece on the great rise and fall of SWTOR. Yes, yes I think it is.

 

Thank you OP for this thread. But now I has a sad.

[Machine-Elf]

Play it before you judge. Out of curiosity, which class stories have you actually finished, and which paths did you take?

 

People give a lot of hate towards "illusion of choice" but as Alexander Freed (the author of the Agent storyline) said, give meaningful narrative branches wherever possible, but when that is not feasible the illusion of choice goes a very, very long way towards giving players great immersion and the feeling of roleplaying a character.

 

Yes, I'm aware that you can become the Emperor's Wrath regardless of which decisions you make. But it matters to the player whether they did it by choking everyone who so much as spoke to them, or by trying to quietly reform the Empire from within. Or whether they started out dark, but after the event on Tatooine decided that their character should rethink their philosophy.

Of course it matters. It can matter very little, as it does in SWTOR—where the consequences of choices are immediate, have no real effect upon the gameplay, and are limited to (at best) a slightly different NPC response—or it can matter a lot, as in Fallout, Dragon Age, KOTOR, and other games whose narratives are dictated by everything from player's conversation choices, to their choice of stats at character creation.

 

SWTOR

Three conversation options to choose from. At times, NPCs will react differently according to what the player says. This consequence is immediate, self-contained, and has no real effect upon the rest of the game.

 

KOTOR

Five, six conversation options to choose from. Each provide a different response 99% of the time. Stat allocation at character creation has an effect on player conversation options. Characters will remember said choices. Some may even turn on you. Certain events will dictate how NPCs address the player (a Swoop Champion will be addressed as such, for instance).

 

THE IDEAL RPG

Adaptive conversation system. NPCs not only react differently to each and every single one of the player's conversation options, they offer different rewards depending on these, and their reaction to the player is dictated by a number of variables, including prior feats, stats, species, alignment, class, even gear. Every conversation outcome has the possibility to branch the story out in alternate paths, making each individual gameplay experience a customized, highly personalized affair.

 

Quoted from the article you linked:

 

"A good rule of thumb when writing interactive narratives: If a game does not acknowledge a decision in the story, that decision, for story purposes, never existed."

 

-- Alexander Freed

Edited May 21, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Machine-Elf]

The feelings you've expressed, Machine-Elf, seem to be the opposite of what most RPG players feel when going through a branching narrative, and seem to be more along the lines of an MMO player who is more concerned with rewards. Not that it's a bad thing - this is an MMO afterall. But there are things that are more important than just the "outcome", you know, blue, red, or green explosion in ME3. There's also the inner struggle of the character and their growth over the course of the entire story, according to how you, the player, chooses.

If you'd read any of my previous posts you'd realize just how far off the mark that assumption is. You can start by following my sig, for one...

 

No, really. I'm super into RPG elements

Edited May 21, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Darthmoriquendi]

/signed........Really want some new content that doesn't pertain to hutts or rakata. With several planets having hutts in them it is getting old and starting to become the "jar-jar" of swtor. Something new would be a little more refreshing and interesting. Heck I would even take the fishy peeps from manaan over this although the croaking would drive me nuts......lol How about Mandalorians and a new planet? Just a thought...... surely there is somethng in this timeline that they can come up with that is good. Don't get me wrong as I did enjoy Makeb after the first couple of grinds. Leveled 4 up to 55 and have 8 left to grind. Now it just seems to drag on and on running dailies etc.

[ufarax]

I want a good story..so therefore http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0081Q58AW/ref=s9_psimh_gw_p63_d3_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0Y1BZ8EQZETNWE24GBKQ&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846. Can't wait for this game.

[Jenzali]

Of course it matters. It can matter very little, as it does in SWTOR—where the consequences of choices are immediate, have no real effect upon the gameplay, and are limited to (at best) a slightly different NPC response—or it can matter a lot, as in Fallout, Dragon Age, KOTOR, and other games whose narratives are dictated by everything from player's conversation choices, to their choice of stats at character creation.

 

SWTOR

Three conversation options to choose from. At times, NPCs will react differently according to what the player says. This consequence is immediate, self-contained, and has no real effect upon the rest of the game.

 

KOTOR

Five, six conversation options to choose from. Each provide a different response 99% of the time. Stat allocation at character creation has an effect on player conversation options. Characters will remember said choices. Some may even turn on you. Certain events will dictate how NPCs address the player (a Swoop Champion will be addressed as such, for instance).

 

THE IDEAL RPG

Adaptive conversation system. NPCs not only react differently to each and every single one of the player's conversation options, they offer different rewards depending on these, and their reaction to the player is dictated by a number of variables, including prior feats, stats, species, alignment, class, even gear. Every conversation outcome has the possibility to branch the story out in alternate paths, making each individual gameplay experience a customized, highly personalized affair.

 

You are comparing single player games to an MMO, and right now SWTOR is the only MMO that even comes close to the amount of choice you can achieve in a single-player game. An adaptive conversation system would be my dream as well, however it is not feasible nor testable due to combinatorial explosion - not to mention it would be multipled by eight classes and two genders.

 

Quoted from the article you linked:

 

"A good rule of thumb when writing interactive narratives: If a game does not acknowledge a decision in the story, that decision, for story purposes, never existed."

 

-- Alexander Freed

 

If you'd read any of my previous posts you'd realize just how far off the mark that assumption is. You can start by following my sig, for one...

 

No, really. I'm super into RPG elements

 

Then we seem to agree on the same things, which is why I am puzzled why you enjoyed the Makeb storyline more than the class stories. Aside from the introduction cutscene to Makeb, any choice previously made in your 1-50 experience was entirely disregarded. RPG elements were almost entirely removed. Your choices ceased to exist, and you are playing a character that was forcibly changed away from what he or she was crafted into by the 1-50 experience. And it barely even tries to disguise the fact that it's nothing more than a MacGuffin hunt for Isotope 5.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Jenzali

[CREAM]

/signed

 

I'm a subscriber, I have three max level characters and am leveling a fourth. A friend and I level together, and we each experience a class story and experience the other class story vicariously through the other. So when this fourth character is finished I will have essentially experienced all 8 class stories.

 

I want to be as clear as possible on the off chance a developer reads this post, class stories are the sole reason I started playing SWTOR, they're the sole reason I continue to play SWTOR, and they are the sole reason I will play SWTOR in the future. Class stories and the replayability they provide are why I'm here playing a year and half after release despite rather minimal content releases during that period.

 

I remember reading an interview with the executive producer of the game, I don't recall his name off hand, around the time Makeb and RotHC was released stating that they were essentially no longer continuing class storylines and were instead developing republic/imperial storylines similar to Makeb from this point forward. And my internal response was pretty strait forward: "Welp, that sucks, I guess when this last character is finished that'll be it. Theres no point to continue playing."

 

Actually going through the class story content probably only accounts for 10% of my playtime or less, but for me its the reason I play the other 90%. Its the main course, the other aspects of the game and all the improvements made over the last year and a half make the whole experience more enjoyable, but without that 10% I'm not motivated to experience the rest.

 

Generic republic and imperial planet stories are interesting, but I'm not invested in them. I don't have a vested interest in who wins the war or which side has this doomsday device or what the dreadmasters have done to this planet. But I am very interested in where the Hero of Tython and Darth Nox and Cypher Nine go from here and how their stories unfold. And I'm sorry, but no matter how much you would like class-generic faction stories to be the continuation of those character's stories, or would like us to convince us that they are, they aren't. They're interesting interludes, but they aren't remotely as satisfying as our personal class stories.

 

So, for me at least, when this last character is finished I will be essentially done with the game. It will be as if I finished a single player game. It was fun and interesting and enjoyable and a unique MMO experience, but theres no point in continuing. It seems clear that my character's stories will have, in any meaningful way, come to an end.

[chuuuuucky]

Agree i experience this with my assasin i level at the moment. I have done planetary quests 3 times now and they get very boring at times. Some of them are so well writen or so entertaining that i watch them a 4. time but they are in the minority.

But the class story is something i am really looking foreward every time i enter a new planet. Combined with the XP boosts leveling is a nice experience.

But i fear the day when i have to go to makeb and play the same quest again i already played 2 times.

[Darthflowmotion]

as i read about 6 pages i slowly heard the ruins of the dantooine jedi temple theme.... (kotor 2)