One reason there is a tank shortage in group finder

[SharpG]

It sounds like people need to try doing things like 16 man nightmare EC before becoming all high and mighty about their role being superior to others. All it takes is one person, regardless of role, to screw up and you wipe the entire group when it comes to progression raiding and the challenging PvE content.

[arunav]

My thoughts on tanking in this game.

 

I just got a Jedi guardian to level 50 a couple of days ago and I must say tanking is pretty hard in this game. Let me compare it to world of warcraft tanking (I know you guys are sick of hearing that game's name frankly I am too). I've tanked successfully in world of warcraft for over two years. On my level 90 Paladin, and back in cataclysm on my 85 Warrior. Tanking it seems in wow is 50 times easier because you actually have the skills and the complexity of the stats that help you out. There are more aoe tank buttons to press that helps you keep high aggro on multiple mobs at once.

 

I think a mistake was adding the lazy button. For a Jedi Guardian "Soresu Form" and for a Trooper "Ion Cell." These skills tell me that they didn't want to think of a more complex way of tanking, and or having skills that deal high threat while having optimized aoe tanking. To me this just says, "If you want to tank, press this button and your good to go." There's no attribute stacking, or complexity of skills that noticeably make you a more effective tank.

 

I know there's like absorption rating, and defensive rating but how effective are these if you really stack them, and can you stack them? WoW just feels more fluid with the character movements and engaging pulls while tanking.

 

In my opinion they have a lot more work to do not only with tanking but with adding a more complex stat system. I think that might be a contributing factor as to why there is a shortage of tanks.

 

I think you need to play your Guardian for more than a few days to get good at tanking in the endgame instances. Yes, stacking your defensive attributes helps, as does gearing the correct types of armorings, hilts, crystals, etc.

 

That said, Guardian tanking is arguably the most difficult for maintaining aggro. It's a lot easier on a Shadow, and I haven't played a Vanguard, but that's supposedly the dummy-proof tank class.

 

If you're under the impression that simply switching stances will make you a tank in SWTOR, you're not going to have a very fun time, and your group will wipe. You need to build your character properly. The stance is simply there to differentiate it from the DPS builds.

 

As for tanking-specific skills, there's an entire tree for each tanking class, including aoe attacks that generate threat. What is your build?

Edited January 1, 2013 by arunav

[jedimasterjac]

Funny you mention Kaon. I've had 4-5 tanks drop out of group upon entering the instance in the past week. One of these tick turds did so to the group I ended up joining as a tank through the instance. Imagine queuing for an hour to be one of 3 people left holding the bag before you even get to start.

 

In fact I had a dropout today on my sniper, first the tank dropped Kaon on zone in, then one dps dc'd. The sorc and I 2-manned it all the way to the cannon part, tried it and wiped. So we just chatted for a bit, an hour after we started (that's 2 hours for me since originally joining queue) 2 reasonable people show up and we trounce the remainder of the instance without incident. Ended up making friends with a damn good player out of it so wasn't all bad, but was a ridiculous expenditure of time for 5 bh comms.

 

Battle of Ilum: Assassasin tank decides to leave two people who had never been there behind and then drops group after multiple wipes saying crap like "I f******g hate you. F*****g die" to these hapless people in the group. I end up having to coach these two on my healer through the rest of the instance using my dps comp as tank, we beat it an hour later. One was 14k using all recruit and the other was a self-proclaimed pvper who had recruit/columi mix, it was a mess to be sure but they were actually happy to finish it and said they learned something.

 

The point: It's not just dps or heals that are crap to deal with, plenty of tanks get credit there too. For the record, I have 8 50s: 3 tanks (shadow, vanny, jugg), 3 dps (sent,sniper,merc), and 2 heals (sorc, sawbones) across factions. I do 4-7 random hms almost everyday, all are pugs and solo queued. I've paid my dues using the groupfinder, and the kicker is: as bad as this community can be it's still head and shoulders above the bs I went through in WoW.

 

It's not enough to say that there is a singular reason for a shortage of tanks when the reality is that there's a shortage of quality players (or players unwilling to learn), maybe all we need are more veteran players with the patience to set an example to follow.

 

Really? Kaon isn't that difficultt. I tanked it in a Tionese\Recruit mix. Didn't die once, and we had 2 peeps who had never done it before.

[NoTomorrow]

The part with Extricate has made me laugh

[mokkh]

Really? Kaon isn't that difficultt. I tanked it in a Tionese\Recruit mix. Didn't die once, and we had 2 peeps who had never done it before.

 

And yet people have been dropping it like a rock left and right. After that post I've had healers vanish after zone in as well. No idea why, kaon is not my favorite instance by any means but its not worth dropping before the get go.

[Psyclic]

I don't usually PUG anything on my main tank (dread guard geared) but on my Shadow tank I have only just hit 50 so I am still going through GF to get more comm's. What I have resorted to is creating a text file and copy and paste it into chat saying something like this:

Hi, I'm <Charactername> and I'll be you tank today

I will always pull, do not pull for me, if you think I am going slow it is probably because I am waiting on healer resources or health to be on full

Markings will be

<insert your preferences for cc markings>

DPS are responsible for picking up standard and silver mobs, if an elite is CC'd and you break CC more than twice I will not taunt it off you and I will leave it at the healers discretion as to whether they feel like healing you.

I am not doing this to be an ***** but to ensure this is a smooth run.

 

This reduces issues on runs and makes sure people know what is going on. Healers not healing is an issue that just needs to be called out early. I usually say "I don't seem to be getting a lot of heals, while I appreciate you assisting with DPS I would prefer that job is left to the DPS and we all stay alive"

 

Sorry to those tanks out there that think it isn't our job to run the group but it is, especially in PUG's. In our Op's we actually have a DPS as our raid lead but in Op's I personally prefer a rDPS as a raid lead as they can see more of the battle field than what I can......which is usually a large helping of boss crotch.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Psyclic

[DragooGC]

I play a healer (Operative) now, but have run my Shadow as a tank. Therefore, I know both sides of the story. I have even ran my Operative and Shadow as DPS.

I Pug a lot seeing how my Guild is small and I am still collecting BH comms.

As some people say, sometimes you get a bad PUG sometimes you get a good PUG.

I really know I am in a bad PUG when I have to cloak to drop agro.

When I am in a good PUG, my energy stays full every stay alive and I can contribute to the DPS.

 

Most of my PUGS have been good. When I am Healing, I have yet been bashed for my ability. Now I have been told that it seems that I maybe a little under geared for this (HM LI), but that has since changed although I am still working on gear and tweaking it.

 

I don’t bash other players either, but may put in comments like "18k damage <boss> does is a little hard to heal someone might want to interrupt that"

when I do get a good tank I always complement them on a gj (in a WZ if I see protection points for using Guard they always get my vote, unless I have a guild member there with me then they get my vote ... it’s a loyalty thing).

If I get a not so good tank, I am always happy giving advice (if they will hear it)

[MitchPB]

Possible Solution: Default Tanks to the Group Leader Position in group finder groups. If the Tank is getting abused the abussive player can be removed BY THE TANK. *Evil Grin*

 

I like how this man thinks

[verfallen]

Issue is :

 

 

There is just as many bad tanks as there are bad players.

 

Perhaps a BIT less % of the tank are idiot, compared to % of DPS, since many people just like "damage".

 

But a fair bit have NO idea of what they are doing, and think that simply having the rotation down is fine.

 

Its not. You need a plan when pulling to keep threat on you. Thats your job. Keep enough threat so that :

 

1-Healer can heal in peace with no pushback

2-Gear permitting, DPS can go all the way on a gold or champion mob without suddenly getting mean loving.

 

Strongs, tank if possible. I got a sintank, I have no issues tanking strongs and elites. I even manage to give a passing blow to normals often, and tank a whole group.

 

DPS that are not half stupid, as said previously in the threat most likely, will make shortwork of thrash. If you got a sorc/sage dps in your team, don't even bother touching them. And surprisingly, healers sorc/sage actually have the best force storm/Groundquake, so once their revification/salavation is down, they can easily take that break in direct healing to kill/stun those guys. That leaves the 2 DPS 2 target to take down, or one take them down and other start focusing the bigger mobs.

 

 

I rarely have issues with healers heals themselves. Often they'll just stick a bit too much to that, but its better than not enough, so I make no complain. A healer that helps with stuns, CC, and dps when able (and know when or when not to dps) is much more rare.

 

But mostly what I see as issues (read "the bads) in PuG:

 

 

=Tanks=

 

-Many don't want to admit they don't know fight. Even after asking everyone if they knew fight, I was stuck explaining Soa's 3rd phase to BOTH tank IN soa's 3rd phase. We managed to finally beat him with a good 3 minute against an enraged him, and because the dps where quick on mindtraps and soa when availaible, and healers where grossly overgeared for SM EV, keeping up very impressively with the damage the tanks where taking from that pissed off ( read enraged) oversized rakata. They finally died, and I sacrified my sorc to drag him under the final pillar, we got it VERY closely, and its a run where DPS and heals where top notch, safe maybe 1 dps who was struggling.

 

Other thing : they seem unaware defensive cooldowns are not all OH-CRAP buttons. Some are to be kept that way, others are not. Know fight, if a spike is predictible (like foreman crusher's frenzies) you keep them for it. Otherwise, don't hesitate to use them to help your healers take a breather, in AoE phase, where some dps won't have such cd and will need more heals etc.

 

 

=DPS=

 

Frankly? Both great people, and very dumb people here. Many just break CCs, don't know the meaning of "no AoE in next fight, CC present" or overall have no judgement.

 

Others are just craptastic, and pulls abysmal numbers for their gear. When a DPS sorc in columni outdps and outhreat a mara in BH/DG with Cloud mind on CD while the mara is blissfully unaware of force camouflage, I say someone's crap at their class.

 

Good DPS are not necessarely the one that pulls the most raw dps. Its the one that adapts, that know tactics more than just "Me DPS big guy, UGH!" stuns targets, protect ally if need be (offheal, shield etc) and show a good grasp of common sense and teamplay. I'll take a 1,2k dps that does that over a 2,2k one that doesnt drop aggro because he somehow grow stiff somewhere when pulling from the tank and is dumb as crap any days.

 

Do understand : sometime it WILL happen even a good dps will make a mistake (CC too early, pull a group he didn't see, or break a CC due to a mistabbing or an auto-target after a target dies) what counts is they are not something that KEEP happening.

 

 

 

=Healers=

 

Rotation issues, if its an healing problem (mostly see sorc that do not use the barrier as part of their rotation enough, or don't drop revification on CD, even if its just for the tank.

 

Otherwise, as stated, some just get blindsided to anything that isnt healing. You can still add affliction to a boss, throw in an extra 100-200 dps if possible to pick up any slack dps might get, or just overall help. All healers have CCs, stuns etc. Use them.

 

In a PuG, if the tank is decent, he is your best friend. Safe for enrage timer, you can literally do everything just the two of you. DPS are there for efficiency, of course, and are still important, but they are linked to progression, not keeping group alive. I will, when playing DPS, not hesitate to sacrifice myself for the healer if tank drop one, weither due to badness, or just a mistake. That big hitting elite is gunning down healer and tank didnt see? I'll build threat on him, CC or stun if possible. Better me than him, and still going to resume dpsing the target we need down even if I'm dying.

 

Mostly thats what I see : lack of cooperation between tank and healer, they don't know each other, they don't make the necessary pressure on a dps that doesnt understand his job (which is letting him die after a few times happening)

 

Only once I saw a really noob healer, that was actually a dps who tought he could heal HM D7 with 2,5 sec DI, and another who just claimed that his tank was so good (they were both in the same guild) he was bored and mostly dpsed.

 

Tank died twice, and not due to gear issues.

 

 

 

 

=In general?=

Mostly communication. Don't be afraid to show leadership, it does NOT mean you are trying to one up your teammates, but that you truly care for the smooth run.

 

In THEORY tank are looked up to. They start pulls, they often deal with the more complex mechanics, and know the bigger pictures behind them. But that doesn't mean a DPS cannnot have the obviously better knowledge or leadership skill, either because he tanks with an alt, or IS a tank's alt.

 

My main is a sintank, but I'm playing my dps sorc just as much. On a lot of SM ops pug I do, I end up ops leader.

 

Not because I'm the "most knowledgeable" but because I care about the group, I ask everyone if they are good with fight, and explain to them if they don't. Newbie is not a fault, its a status. Stupid is another thing.

 

I also play my role, but assist others (offheal? Static barrier to save healer some ressources? Adds (that class is perhaps the ultimate thrash cleaner you can have) extrication on a dps that keeps pulling over the tank's threat, despite using his threat dump on cd?)

 

So communicate, assign CC signs, and a focus fire sign if needed.

 

Some PuGs are unredeemable. But some are worth working with, and you meet great people, just as much as you meet less than great ones.

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

PUG's are a living nightmare in this game. Any sane person should avoid it.

 

I disagree, I have been gearing my Guardian in Black Hole by running FPs via the group finder, almost everyone I have grouped with has been fine and the majority of runs have been quick and straightforward.

[AnAnonymousGuy]

Simple rule of thumb:

If the tank dies, it’s the healers fault.

If the Healer dies, it’s the tanks fault.

If a DPS dies, it’s their own fault

 

So, so, ********n true...

 

My main is a sorc healer, and I'm yet to run a HM FP, let alone an operation, with anything else. Having leveled up to 50 with him, I've developed a sort of "healer's instinct"; maybe other healers will know what I'm talking about, but it's actually harder for me to not instinctively heal than to heal. If I switch to Madness DPS, I have to physically remove my heals from my hotkeys because it's second nature.

 

Anyway, the point is, if their healing sucks and they aren't undergeared, lose them. Fast. There's always another healer, who knows what the hell they're meant to be doing, waiting outside.

[AlixMV]

Man, I feel for you OP. Stories like this and descriptions of tank roles in endgame turned me off doing flashpoints for a very long time, despite loving playing tank characters (I have three). Now I'm trying to break into endgame content with them and terrified of using Group Finder because of getting abuse for my fight-specific ignornace.

 

Doesn't help that one of the few times I have done endgame tank content, I got chewed out for not doing my job by a DPS who wasn't following my lead and running ahead and initiating fights before I did.

 

Doing Guild-only doesn't work for me because with one exception, I'm not in any huge guilds.

 

But, general sentiment of the comments applies: there are good and bad people in every role, going PUG, you're risking getting the stupids along with the good apples. I've had both good and bad experiences using Group Finder.

 

And when all else fails: /ignore weeds out the bad apples you encounter. :}

[LostInReverie]

I have just started getting my feet wet tanking. I have a Vanguard and a Guardian, focusing more on the Vanguard right now, and I am pretty much terrified of screwing up and getting chewed out for it. I feel like I am a pretty decent tank so far, last FP I did, I was pretty much the only one taking damage from the last boss fight so it made the fight really easy, and we were all at or below level for the FP so I count that as a success. I just hope that the people I group up with in pugs are understanding and not jerks...

[Zarrot]

PUG's are a living nightmare in this game. Any sane person should avoid it.

 

Seriously...I roleplayed in Ultima Online, I raided in WoW, I met people in Secret World, got into groups in Champions Online and DCU, I even played Final Fantasy. But hell, SWTOR has the worst PUG community out of all. If you want to be succesfull or get an easy time through community, a friendly Guild is a MUST.

 

 

This is very true. I think the biggest issue with this community is that it attracted so many Star Wars fans that never set foot in an MMO before. These players reach end game soloing but haven't really learned their class, don't understand what most of us would consider basic MMO concepts, and often stubbornly refuse to "play the game your way.". Many games you have raids and forced grouping before 50 where you learn some of this. Here not so much if you don't want it.

 

I've run into some really strange people and some stranger issues in this game. On the flip side I have also met some great people.

[DakotaDoc]

Isn't it always the healers fault?

 

*ducks* ...

 

No seriously ... Tanks and or Healers should be the group leaders since they both have certain perspectives on "battle field awareness". NEVER DPS (and I am primarily a DPS player).

 

 

Here Here.....I have many alts. More Tanks and Healers (in that order) then DPS. I don't mean to belittle anyone, but DPS is the easiest most mindless class. It can be fun to play as you have two rules.

 

1. Kill adds first, then help kill champ/boss with tank.

2. Keep adds off healer.

 

Still people mess that up by only staying on the Champ/Boss and let adds attack the healer. So then Tank has to run from Champ/Boss to try and Aggro them to him. Happens all the time. I tank more then I heal, and I have often been told by reputation on both sides. Rep (Guradian and Vanguard) and Imp (Assassin and Juggernaut) that they are relieved I joined there Group Finder Flash point as such and such tank was bad. But I find usually those people are also making it difficult on the tank. No complaints. However I have been DPS and Heals and actually had bad tanks that were not in tank gear, were not speced for tank. Were in the wrong stance. Did not taunt etc....so it goes to say there are bad players.

 

Everyone has to learn at some point in time.

Edited January 2, 2013 by DakotaDoc

[Zarrot]

I have just started getting my feet wet tanking. I have a Vanguard and a Guardian, focusing more on the Vanguard right now, and I am pretty much terrified of screwing up and getting chewed out for it. I feel like I am a pretty decent tank so far, last FP I did, I was pretty much the only one taking damage from the last boss fight so it made the fight really easy, and we were all at or below level for the FP so I count that as a success. I just hope that the people I group up with in pugs are understanding and not jerks...

 

My main is a Jugg Tank and I have been tanking since release. Tanking in this game especially once you start progression can be mentally tasking. For my money, tanking is the most challenging thing you can do. The reality is though that you will screw up occasionally but so will everyone else. Some fights are so tight that the smallest slip can turn things bad. The two most important things are knowledge and control. Knowledge of the encounter, the mechanics, knowledge of your class, and how threat works will give you an edge. Know your gear and what gear is required for the FP/OP. Don't walk into an LI in Tio gear. Control of the party, use that knowledge and lead the group. As with anything, the more you do it the more comfortable you become and the better you get. If someone is chewing you out over a mistake then they aren't someone you want to be grouping with.

[DakotaDoc]

Honestly having played all three roles, I believe the healer has the hardest job. Yes Tanking is a skill, it is challenging and very tough at times. But when the animal byproducts hits the rotary impeller and it is up to the healer to heal everyone back to life before a wipe. Those are the toughest moments.

 

Some flashpoints, Lost Island for example, are very very .... hard on a healer. They should rename that Healers Hell.

[BobaScott]

I am horrid at tanking and decent at healing. As a DPS I am most comfortable. I have had great luck with pugs as my playtimes are usually off-peak and my guild is mostly offline.

 

The few times I have had issues, they were with tanks. Mind you, these are a handful out of many, many FPs, but the egos were amazing on these people.

 

The worst was a lecture I received on playing my sniper when I had done just fine on the ONE mob we had faced to that point. He continued to stop and lecture me as we progressed to the point that the other members wanted him to shut up. But he was a great tank when he actually played, and everyone knows not to anger the tank into quitting. So I stopped doing it right, followed his lead, we still finished, albeit at a MUCH slower pace.

 

And last night I had a pug on a HM FP where the healer was in over their head. They apologized profusely and explained everything quite well I thought, but this tank went off the entire time about how lucky the healer was that he was sooooo patient. We ended up basically doing it where the healer focused solely on the tank leaving the two dps's on their own. Worked out in the end but the abuse from this person was uncomfortable to say the least.

 

It's almost like these few bad apples have it in their head that they are a gift from the heavens and if you do not bend to their will, you should not be allowed in their presence.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

The OP is kinda ridiculous. He had one bad experience and this is why there's a shortage on tanks...

 

1. What shortage on tanks? Tanks and heals will always queue faster than DPS, that doesn't mean there's a shortage.

2. There are bad players in every role (tanks that can't hold agro and don't pay attention, healers that dps too much and forget to do their job, dps who ignore normal dps order and focus the wrong mobs, all classes noobs not knowing their spec or how to manage their resources, etc). Either make the the group work despite the bad players or kick them. After the group ends /ignore them. Making a post about it isn't going to fix anything, bad players will always exist.

3. If there is a shortage of tanks (not saying there is) lack of dual spec would be a much stronger reason than group finder. In fact, it's gotten better since f2p dropped since subs can now respec for free. Now people who used to only DPS in flashpoints are healing and tanking to get quicker queues because there isn't a monetary penalty (though still a time one, but not much of one).

[Spartanik]

Yeah, that's pretty much why I quit tanking.

 

On the flip side, lately I've had terrible luck with tanks. The last few runs I've done the tank was either in DPS gear, or, if I was really unlucky, in the gear for the wrong class.

 

Oh plz i had jedi guardians tanks, with cunning stuff and aim stuff of lvl 20ish on the false emperor hard mode... and from what i could gather i dont think the dude knew the mechanics of combat ( of the game) at all. using chi cho

not even soresu...

I also had tanks that rushed into every mob without waiting for the rest of the team and wonder why they died... i mean there are some crazy folk out there its a given.

For all the beginners i urge you all to read the tutorials, or the codex about game mechanics.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Spartanik

[Zarrot]

Honestly having played all three roles, I believe the healer has the hardest job. Yes Tanking is a skill, it is challenging and very tough at times. But when the animal byproducts hits the rotary impeller and it is up to the healer to heal everyone back to life before a wipe. Those are the toughest moments.

 

Some flashpoints, Lost Island for example, are very very .... hard on a healer. They should rename that Healers Hell.

 

Also a valid POV, my GF is a healer and I'm sure she would agree with you HM Dread Guard and NIM Jarg and Sorno are brutal on the healers. The one thing I can say in favor of tanks having it worse is that for the most part the healers can stand still and focus on the blue bars. Outside of those moments of absolute defecation in the ventilation they can mostly coast on cruise control.

[chuixupu]

Not sure I agree about SWTOR having the worst pug community. I've played WoW since 2006. I think it used to be much better, but it has gotten exceedingly worse with each expansion. the MOP community, obviously calloused by LFG and LFR for too long has been utterly horrendous. My SWTOR experiences overall haven't been all that bad. Edited January 2, 2013 by chuixupu

[Mallorik]

lol, people are idiots and always will be, you just cant get mad at them or youll always be mad in this game. i just boot the bad ones and move on, i usualy dont leave the group because its not fair to the other people who arent idiots.

 

But alot of it is biowares fault, like the rest of this half assed game then group finder is a pale reflection of good group finders like rifts and wows (who also have these problems)

 

The other day i had a hm LI and noticed i was down to 1/4 hp after tanking the first boss and almost died on the next two trash pulls, so i aksed the healer if there was a problem and he said "im not the healer" well the game said he was so we booted him and i had to put him on ignore after about the 5th rage whisper.

 

But if bioware was even half the company that trion or blizzard was, the group finder would be able to tell what spec you are AND if youre geared enough, what hope does this game have if they cant even accomplish something small like that?

[AlixMV]

Here Here.....I have many alts. More Tanks and Healers (in that order) then DPS. I don't mean to belittle anyone, but DPS is the easiest most mindless class. It can be fun to play as you have two rules.

 

1. Kill adds first, then help kill champ/boss with tank.

2. Keep adds off healer..

 

I've been running more FPs with DPS recently than my tanks or Healers, but whyyyyyyyy can't the DPS (as a collective, not individuals) seem to Get This?

 

I was Scoundrel Healing Hammer Station this weekend and the two DPS were both failing these two points, even after the Tank and I asked them to do it. We wound up having to abandon it in frustration.

[TangledDruid]

*everyone* has a job to do. Tanks need to tank, healers need to heal, and dps has deal damage. I have seen just as many lazy dps as clueless healers as unaware tanks.

 

I believe however, that for the runs you do in group finder, they are most forgiving to DPS. I don't think I have ever hit an enrage timer in False emp

 

I generally don't run group finder on my tank, unless I queue with my wife (healer)

My wife refuses to pug group finder without my tank.

 

I have noticed though, that play style comes into play more often than not. I know what my wife can heal though, and what I have to use cool downs to get through, and when I have to cc. We have had many conversations that went "why no cc stupid head!?" "you're fine heal though" with my wife. I try to avoid those with strangers I know how she plays and what to expect, so I push a bit more to get done. I have got caught a couple times myself tanking a pug and getting called out for being a dumb *** because of that.