One reason there is a tank shortage in group finder

[Petnil]

i dont mind a dps who new to a FP,, if he say so up front and dont go click on stuff without asking (turret in Kaon comes to mind) and generally just follow lead. But dps who jump a cc´ed screamer instead of nuking the merc first is a wipe waiting to happen. It´s not that it happens alot, but Kaon is just a realy bad place for such mistakes to happen. In other FP you most likely will have no problem with pulling 2 packs, but in Kaon most likely 2 packs will kill you.

 

I made sure to place the best healers and dps on my friendlist while i was leveling, the problem is that when we got to level 50 they never seem to be online. I guess they are trying another class story, but this isn´t helping me wanting to pug. At least when you got 1 player who knows what he´s doing, preferably a dps actually, then it increase the chance of succes.

[Cirdi]

Dear OP:

 

While tank and healer bashing has been going on since the beginning of MMOs, I go by one simple rule:

 

"If you are a healer or tank, and your group is ALIVE, you're both doing your jobs." It's that simple.

 

However, if the healer was dpsing when they are the designated healer, there is no way your experience could have been a good one.

 

It could have been that the healer didn't fully understand his/her role as designated healer. go figure....

 

Sadly, it's a luck of the draw in group finder. I would suggest adding players who seem to know what they are doing to your friends list. If you see them on, send em a tell asking if they are interested in queuing for a Flashpoint. This way, you are at least among players who understand their roles and your group finder experience may improve greatly

 

Better luck next time and sorry you had such problems that night

 

--Cirdi

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Dear OP:

 

While tank and healer bashing has been going on since the beginning of MMOs, I go by one simple rule:

 

"If you are a healer or tank, and your group is ALIVE, you're both doing your jobs." It's that simple.

 

However, if the healer was dpsing when they are the designated healer, there is no way your experience could have been a good one.

 

It could have been that the healer didn't fully understand his/her role as designated healer. go figure....

 

Sadly, it's a luck of the draw in group finder. I would suggest adding players who seem to know what they are doing to your friends list. If you see them on, send em a tell asking if they are interested in queuing for a Flashpoint. This way, you are at least among players who understand their roles and your group finder experience may improve greatly

 

Better luck next time and sorry you had such problems that night

 

--Cirdi

 

THIS

 

I was in a group, obviously not with the OP, as a healer. The tank got mad at me because while nobody died ONCE, he/she thought I wasn't healing good enough. I had to heal the DPSers too so if they were not in AOE range, I'd get to the lowest HP person first then whoever else needed a heal the most. Tank never got below 50% either. Not one time. And then did a vote kick on me.

[fungihoujo]

Ya, being a tank or healer is rough. I tend to heal mostly- I like how I don't have to have a different gear set, I can heal in the same gear I dps in... and even though I'm in all pvp gear, I've healed through SM ops and HMs alike without too much trouble.

 

One other reason I think for the tank shortage is just that- I can heal and DPS in the same gear and it doesn't really effect me, even in pvp gear where a lot is wasted on expertise.

 

I cannot do that as a tank- even mid low levels on my shadow and guardian (level 18 and 29) it's already painful for my shadow- and I feel like I must have tank stats on my guardian. Without decent self healing or 'thorns' though, that kind of gear/spec is painful to use outside of FPs... and I don't feel like doing just one thing to level.

 

 

 

And that's even before handling the terrible healers who don't heal you, the dps who stand in the fire and break every CC while hitting the wrong targets- and all the abuse whenever there's a wipe since it's always your fault.

 

That's the main thing I hate about tanking- I can tolerate terrible groups, in fact I actually kinda enjoy them, they can be a challenge and make a good story, and I'm not usually in a hurry (I had a Deadmines group that lasted 2.5 hours, was an 8 main raid, and we still never made it past the second boss... in fact, it took 1.5 hours and 6 wipes to reach the instance- your mind right now is blown just trying to comprehend how that's possible). As a dps, or even a healer, I can sit back, crack a beer and enjoy the flames burning- as a tank, you're always at the center of the storm though and that's simply not enjoyable.

[Irawratih]

i tank on my main as well, the reasons i stopped main tanking other then the daily run are these.

 

1. Tank nerf, i am a sith assasian tank. when they cut my armor and self regen it stopped any chance i had to tank a 8 or 16 man story mode cause powertechs can do it with less healing needed

 

2. Dps pulling agro or half *** tanking, such as the jugs that go in as dps and then pull agro or pull mobs before i do. this problem only seems to happen with jugs, no idea why but has been only class i have had this issue with.

 

3. Lazy/dps healers, this seems to be a problem only found in soc healers. i have never had a operative dps instead of heal nor a bh do that. the dps issue seems to be a sorc only problem. lazy healer class does not matter.

[jorill]

i tank on my main as well, the reasons i stopped main tanking other then the daily run are these.

 

1. Tank nerf, i am a sith assasian tank. when they cut my armor and self regen it stopped any chance i had to tank a 8 or 16 man story mode cause powertechs can do it with less healing needed

 

2. Dps pulling agro or half *** tanking, such as the jugs that go in as dps and then pull agro or pull mobs before i do. this problem only seems to happen with jugs, no idea why but has been only class i have had this issue with.

 

3. Lazy/dps healers, this seems to be a problem only found in soc healers. i have never had a operative dps instead of heal nor a bh do that. the dps issue seems to be a sorc only problem. lazy healer class does not matter.

 

What is a lazy dps healer?

[Glorthox]

Guardians have it rougher than the rest with zero aoe taunts to keep mobs focused on the tank. Assassins and troopers have it easier because of all the aoe moves they have. And for the healer not to be able to heal you and just dps tells me that the healer was in dps spec claiming that they were heals. I would tank more on my guardian if they were upgraded as far as abilities that caused more threat. Threat is all most tanks think about and if the dps can pull threat off of a tank with ease, something is wrong...

[Irawratih]

What is a lazy dps healer?

 

a lazy healer or a healer that is doing dps instead of healing. sorry if that was unclear to you.

[Tadache]

This doesn't exactly answer the OP's concern, but I thought I'd add my perspective to it. I'm a new subscriber and have so far made the following observations. Please note that I'm still only lvl 35, so I'm not talking about end-game grouping.

 

1. The first flashpoints the group finder puts you into are Black Talon and The Esseles (sp?). Neither of which requires 4 on the team, nor a dedicated tank or healer, especially if you have 4 people -- which the GF gives you automatically. When I joined my first FP through the group finder I didn't know this, so I was stunned by how no one cared about group roles. I was (and almost always am) a healer. People actually complained to me about healing instead of DPSing. After several runs of BT I thought this was how the Flashpoints worked in SWTOR. Free for all. I was quite surprised when I hit Hammerstation, where roles matter. So, just a thought, some of those people who ignore their role can partially blame the first Flashpoints they go into.

 

2. The group finder sometimes assigns you a role you didn't choose. As I stated above, I am a healer. I queue as a healer, not as DPS. So, when I got grouped for Hammerstation, I assumed my normal role - healing. After the first fight, one of the group members initiated a vote kick on me for not playing my role. How was I to know that the group finder had made me a DPS? I hadn't chosen that option. Also, seriously, did that really warrant a vote kick? Luckily, the others in the group agreed with me and denied the kicking. All this to say, be aware that the group finder messes up. Don't blame the player.

 

3. I have never had a bad flashpoint experience. I've only played for a month now and I'm only lvl 35. But, aside from the experience mentioned in 2 above, all of my experiences have been very positive. People are helpful, patient with new players and very organized. I have not encountered ninja-looting. I have not encountered lazy healers (though that's because the healer is me ) and I've never encountered a bad tank. So, I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Of course, you all might be referring to end-game grouping, so maybe we're talking about two different things.

 

Anyway, that's one person's perspective. A pretty positive experience so far.

[Kissakias]

always the lesser class is the healer no matter how much try to show us thats is the tank

[Mazikeen]

People can be very abusive of tanks

 

This is not news. This has been happening for years and years. You're trying to explain that being nice will get you farther than being an %&$ to people who genuinely do not care. I, as an aside, tank in every MMO I play (except GW2, which has no tanks).

 

It doesn't help that we live in a society that promoted aggressiveness and rewards confidence while at the same time not only punishing those who care to speak out or attempt to correct things but also seems to reward idiocy. When you have to 'dumb yourself down' to fit in it's time to review social acceptance protocol.

[Lyons_Crest]

I agree with this. But it does not seem to be everyone. You just mentioned 2 people from this group. One guy seemed to be on it... the healer not so much.

 

My question is, did you guys tell the healer that he was the healer?

 

 

I would have honestly vote kicked him out, since he was the seeming lynchpin to ya'lls destruction and frustraition...

 

I have a tank, and I hold my own, pretty much all BH gear within my first week, not bad. I agree with OP but I would have told the healer to heal or get the **** out verbally and with a motion to kick following my LOL in chat. I think OP here was really graceful where personally I am blunt and not as graceful.

 

I learned how to play this game with my Sent, as a Sent I learned how to DPS, I learned fights, how to avoid damage the best way possible from where to stand and when to wait and hit. Now I main tank for the imps and working on a new tank for the Reps. I would never let anyone talk to me that way and the only problem I can see is that since you saw the problem and you kept letting it happen without fixing it (removing or talking with the one healing) then you were part of the problem as well.

 

Not everyone is a pro and many often forget that. As a Tank yes we do not have to wait for que's (perk of being a tank) ok but you know what... if someone is *********** up and you see they are *********** up and you don't tell them they are failing and screwing it all up, well then you are just as much of the problem as that person is? Tell them, hey,,, you can't do that or this you are here to heal or just dps and part of that is keeping me alive and everyone else or as a dps you have to wait for me to start combat or I will just let you *********** die if you want to be stupid... LOL

 

Some people learn very fast, some not so fast, we have to be patient. So while I agree OP eventually did the right thing, it's cause he told the healer off in the end, however by doing so and leaving so gracefully he also screwed 2 other people on that flash point. Thanks for the grace LOL

 

My point is, people need to be told if they mess up, some will ask others may not, or it could be pride or what ever, who cares? It's a game and we are all teamates in the end. All for one and one for all. If you see someone screwing up in the future tell them, right there and then don't wait ... Don't wait... If you tell them what they did wrong and they tell you to **** off vote to kick explain why or then leave your self understandable.

[Razot]

I am lucky as a tank as my real life friend loves healing.

We generally don't use group finder we find people who are chill and run with them only unless we feel like grieving D-bags or meeting new chill people we can run stuff together more often. generally its nothing more than just dragging around a few companion type things that type in chat we ignore.

 

Unless you are chill or become part of our group we will watch you die and emo rage while we are laughing on the phone. Nothing is better than pretending to be insanely bad to the hurry up guys we will watch every scene and wait for the auto response to kick in as we know you are melting with rage on the other end..

 

Not so much for the guild thing as we don't like structured times to be on or what to do. I've been playing MMO's for so long I naturally expect you to be a D-bag that i will i hate and this being a theme park I'm going in with a chip on my shoulder anyway ready for a troll... But more often than not I am surprised by how laid back most people really are in this game and going in expecting trouble and finding chill people is a pleasant surprise.

 

Yes we are antisocial but you need us more than we need you and PVP is more of what we like anyway. PVE is just for kicks

Edited December 31, 2012 by Razot

[magi_melcior]

Guardians have it rougher than the rest with zero aoe taunts to keep mobs focused on the tank. Assassins and troopers have it easier because of all the aoe moves they have. And for the healer not to be able to heal you and just dps tells me that the healer was in dps spec claiming that they were heals. I would tank more on my guardian if they were upgraded as far as abilities that caused more threat. Threat is all most tanks think about and if the dps can pull threat off of a tank with ease, something is wrong...

 

What level is your Guardian? I have one as my Main and she's got an AOE taunt, it's called Challenging Call and she's had it since level 30.

 

As a Tank (I also run a DPS and Healer btw) the things that annoy me most about PuGs are:

 

1. DPS leaping in first forcing me to have to fight them for agro

2. People pulling mobs that could be avoided, Kaon Under Siege is a great example, why do some people insist on charging in a pulling 12 Rhakgouls when we could fight them 4 at a time.

3. Healers that spend all their time healing the DPS and then wonder why the Tank dies

4. Stealth Classes that sneak past a mob then shout at the Tank for pulling the same mob due to the Tank's higher threat radius.

5. healers that think they are DPS

6. DPS that think they can Tank just because they have a Taunt button

7. People who use AOEs near CC'd enemies.

8. People that shout at the Tank because they put a Guard on the DPS rather than the Healer

 

Having Tanked and DPS'd every Flashpoint and Operation in the game I can say this with absolute certainty, Tanks, regardless of class, can take way more damage than even the best geared DPS or Healer, many of the bosses in Hardmode can one-shot any DPS or Healer but the Tank will survive (well 1 shot at least). Take Lost Island HM, if the Sentinel Droid gets incinerate onto the Tank, the Tank can survive it (just) with healing and using defensive cooldowns, a Healer or DPS will be wiped end of story. What I am trying to say to all the DPS and Healers is that the longer the Tank stays alive and in control of the battle the longer YOU stay alive. Without the Tank the DPS will take so much damage that the healer will not be able to keep them up and if the healer is targeted there is no way they can out heal incoming damage they'll be taking from Hardmode bosses.

 

Oh and just to balance the argument a bit, things that annoy me about Tanks when running DPS or Healer.

 

1. Tanks in DPS or Healer gear

2. Tanks that don't Taunt

3. Tanks that don't guard or guard the healer, guys the main purpose of Guard in PvE is to lower threat and trust me the only way a Healer is going to out agro a DPS is if the DPS really sucks.

4. Tanks that sit back and let the DPS charge in first

5. Tanks that use their Threat dump move as their main defense, saw a Tank do that once in KP on Foreman Crusher, was not pretty.

6. Tanks that attack the enemy that has just been CC'd, morons!

[Pirana]

Sorry, OP, you did not handle it correctly. When the healer does not heal, call them out or kick them. Maybe they do not understand the rules of the game, but better to find it out than wiping and wasting your time.

 

It's as simple as this.

[Petnil]

a lazy healer or a healer that is doing dps instead of healing. sorry if that was unclear to you.

 

To me a healer is kinda lazy if he only heals. I spend alot of my FP time dpssing as healer. As long as people stay above 80% hp i dont see the problem. Ofc that only happens in the good groups, in the bad groups the time i could have spend dooing a bit of "dps" is most likely spend healing myself because of healeragro.

[ElitehunterDS]

Im not sure why you didnt think of it but there is an easy fix to your issue OP, Vote Kick the healer out and get a replacement in the next minute, easy and fast.

[Khevar]

To me a healer is kinda lazy if he only heals. I spend alot of my FP time dpssing as healer. As long as people stay above 80% hp i dont see the problem. Ofc that only happens in the good groups, in the bad groups the time i could have spend dooing a bit of "dps" is most likely spend healing myself because of healeragro.

Did you read the OP?

 

The problem was the healer dps'ing INSTEAD of healing.

 

If your group is zooming through the instance, no worries, then sure, do some dps on the side.

 

But not when the group is wiping because you're too busy dropping Force Storm to notice your tank's red bar is almost gone ...

[Kalfear]

To me a healer is kinda lazy if he only heals.

 

So is a Tank a lazy tank if they only taunt and hold agro?

Is a DPSer a lazy DPSer if they only clear adds and do DPS?

 

Or this double standard of yours only apply to healers and your desire for them to do your job as well?

 

 

NO ONE should ever complain about a heal focusing all his/her attention on healing, thats their job.

If the Tank and DPS doing there jobs, the healer never has to even think about adding DPS to their rotation (unless they want to of course).

 

Sadly its true though that often the healer will have to add DPS numbers, or focus self healing, because the DPSers are lacking in their own ability or the tank and DPSers are oblivious to anything that gets by them so Healer SOL and need to self heal, group heal, DPS all at once cause the other 3 in group not very good at their jobs.

 

But to calla healer lazy because they wish to do their own job properly rather then fill in the slack for the non functional DPSers?

 

WOW thats pretty moronic claim.

 

As for me, I have 4 level 50 healers and DPS all the time when in guild groups because our tanks control agro properly (and hit important interupts lessing damage taken greatly) and our DPSers are taught to watch the whole fight and pick up any and all adds the tank might miss. This allows me the healer to actually keep everyone at 100% health (not 80%) and add damage when I can.

 

But the chances of that happening in a PUG group are slim to none and I tend to go pure heal mode because the Tanks and DPSers simply require more and bigger heals all the time.

[jorill]

To me a healer is kinda lazy if he only heals. I spend alot of my FP time dpssing as healer. As long as people stay above 80% hp i dont see the problem. Ofc that only happens in the good groups, in the bad groups the time i could have spend dooing a bit of "dps" is most likely spend healing myself because of healeragro.

 

I might throw a DOT or some basic attacks when healing to speed things up but nothing to really compromise my power pool. I would never expect a healer to do anything but healing and maybe debuff when necessary.

[Cupelixx]

Im not sure why you didnt think of it but there is an easy fix to your issue OP, Vote Kick the healer out and get a replacement in the next minute, easy and fast.

 

Believe me, I am 100% cognizant of this. I always give the benefit of the doubt (believe I mentioned this too), and things came apart very quickly. And again, it wasn't just the healer. DPS overall wasn't quite there either. I probably was more patient than I should have been, but I decided quitting the group was the best answer.

[Cupelixx]

This is not news. This has been happening for years and years. You're trying to explain that being nice will get you farther than being an %&$ to people who genuinely do not care. I, as an aside, tank in every MMO I play (except GW2, which has no tanks).

 

It doesn't help that we live in a society that promoted aggressiveness and rewards confidence while at the same time not only punishing those who care to speak out or attempt to correct things but also seems to reward idiocy. When you have to 'dumb yourself down' to fit in it's time to review social acceptance protocol.

 

I am not lost on that point, trust me. I never expected to change the world with my post, be self-righteous or anything like that. Just voicing myself and sharing some perspective. Believe me, it was only a short time ago that I was 'that tank' in WoW. I would straight up vote kick people for having s*** DPS in PUGs, not knowing what to do and not willing to learn, or straight up screwing around and wasting everyone's time. Before I know it, I WAS 'that tank' that some people in this thread have complained about. It's a fine line, and I try to stay on the positive side of it these days. I'm only 30 and already that 'Get off my lawn guy'. Don't need that crossing over into my game time again. Perhaps I was too lenient before bailing, but I think I made my reasoning for that clear in the OP.

[magi_melcior]

I might throw a DOT or some basic attacks when healing to speed things up but nothing to really compromise my power pool. I would never expect a healer to do anything but healing and maybe debuff when necessary.

A good time for healers to get in on the DPS is when someone has the enemy stunned, say a Jedi Knight using Force Stasis. I'll usually have my Commando open up with some of her heavy hitters at that point. I'll also help by lobbing out a Cryo Grenade to stun mobs, also buys me time to heal up the group (AOE Heals suck on Commandos). Plus I usually have to keep an eye out for other targets that need a quick CC. Other than that I'll generally focus on healing unless everyone is topped up and I can afford to take a quick turn at doing some damage. Basically it comes down to judging the right time to stop healing and start damaging. If everyone's at near full health and not taking insane damage then that's a good time, or if your in a crucial DPS burn phase of a fight where every point of damage counts (Fabricator Droid in KP for example), however the most important job a healer has is "to heal" if everyone survives the battle then the healer has done their job regardless of whether they had to pitch in with the DPS or not. If you are relying on the Healer for DPS at crucial stages then there is something terribly wrong with your DPS players.

[Jedirep]

My thoughts on tanking in this game.

 

I just got a Jedi guardian to level 50 a couple of days ago and I must say tanking is pretty hard in this game. Let me compare it to world of warcraft tanking (I know you guys are sick of hearing that game's name frankly I am too). I've tanked successfully in world of warcraft for over two years. On my level 90 Paladin, and back in cataclysm on my 85 Warrior. Tanking it seems in wow is 50 times easier because you actually have the skills and the complexity of the stats that help you out. There are more aoe tank buttons to press that helps you keep high aggro on multiple mobs at once.

 

I think a mistake was adding the lazy button. For a Jedi Guardian "Soresu Form" and for a Trooper "Ion Cell." These skills tell me that they didn't want to think of a more complex way of tanking, and or having skills that deal high threat while having optimized aoe tanking. To me this just says, "If you want to tank, press this button and your good to go." There's no attribute stacking, or complexity of skills that noticeably make you a more effective tank.

 

I know there's like absorption rating, and defensive rating but how effective are these if you really stack them, and can you stack them? WoW just feels more fluid with the character movements and engaging pulls while tanking.

 

In my opinion they have a lot more work to do not only with tanking but with adding a more complex stat system. I think that might be a contributing factor as to why there is a shortage of tanks.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Jedirep
Added something

[Darka]

Best Line ever

Healer : Its okay, I can tank pretty good

*Jumps in*