BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

[TUXs]

That's when you use your ability that gives you 2 free insta-casts and go from there. Or have whoever you have fanning you get focused by your team.

 

What do you do for the next 110 seconds while it's on cooldown?

[AMKSED]

What do you do for the next 110 seconds while it's on cooldown?

 

LoS? Use your ability that prevents movement-impairing effects? Don't just stand there and spam grav round? Get some distance between you and said person? Knock them back? Stun them? Use abilites on tool bar that don't have cast-times?

[ArchangelLBC]

I don't even play a gunslinger......

 

Commandos damage is fine, whether or not sniper is over the top on dps is another matter.

 

 

Commando damage has always been fine while we were left alone. It was always under pressure that we had issues. Luckily it seems it's been so long that most people forgot they have an interrupt, but never you fear. Smart players will be locking us down again soon. We're like snipers with less range and they can get at us and interrupt us.

 

Except now if we have our cooldowns up we can make them regret that decision. But we need those cooldowns up or we can just run away faster unfortunately.

 

In regs we've closed the game, and since some people were already doing very well in regulars, they're even better now. I don't see us being ranked viable though.

 

LoS? Use your ability that prevents movement-impairing effects? Don't just stand there and spam grav round? Get some distance between you and said person? Knock them back? Stun them? Use abilites on tool bar that don't have cast-times?

 

Pillar hump. Cute. Please stop expressing opinions on the matter if you aren't educated enough to have valid ones. I can't stand the idiots like you who come in here and think they have any clue what they're talking about because they can top damage charts in lowbie or in unranked warzones. I can do that and I'm wearing PVE gear. That doesn't make the class good. That makes other people horrible.

[Skroting]

Pillar hump. Cute. Please stop expressing opinions on the matter if you aren't educated enough to have valid ones. I can't stand the idiots like you who come in here and think they have any clue what they're talking about because they can top damage charts in lowbie or in unranked warzones. I can do that and I'm wearing PVE gear. That doesn't make the class good. That makes other people horrible.

 

Well i'm playing a 55 commando, gunnery spec. I don't have that much of a problem with it. If you do get focused, then no, you will not be able to dps until you create some distance between you and your target, but with the tools you have, it's not impossible, albeit perhaps harder as a commando compared to other classes. (i don't even have the extra insta cast talent, and i don't cry as much as you do)

Love how every person who cries about commandos argue from the viewpoint that every utility ability is on cooldown 100% of the time, and that there is someone on them spamming interrupts 100% of the time.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Skroting

[AMKSED]

Commando damage has always been fine while we were left alone. It was always under pressure that we had issues. Luckily it seems it's been so long that most people forgot they have an interrupt, but never you fear. Smart players will be locking us down again soon. We're like snipers with less range and they can get at us and interrupt us.

 

Except now if we have our cooldowns up we can make them regret that decision. But we need those cooldowns up or we can just run away faster unfortunately.

 

In regs we've closed the game, and since some people were already doing very well in regulars, they're even better now. I don't see us being ranked viable though.

 

 

 

Pillar hump. Cute. Please stop expressing opinions on the matter if you aren't educated enough to have valid ones. I can't stand the idiots like you who come in here and think they have any clue what they're talking about because they can top damage charts in lowbie or in unranked warzones. I can do that and I'm wearing PVE gear. That doesn't make the class good. That makes other people horrible.

 

Someone's mad cause they don't know how to play? Like the guy above me said, create distance. And if you're getting focused that much in ranked your healers/tanks should be good enough to keep you up as well.

 

Basically all that I got from your bitter reply is "I cannot just stand here and shoot and DPS people, I am broken."

Edited April 22, 2013 by AMKSED

[klham]

Complaints re. commando / mercs concern the Advanced Classes' performance in high-level PvP, against groups of other high-level, high-skill, fully geared players. Not PvE or lowbie pug PvP. How many times does this need to be said?

 

I'm seeing some improvement in the AC's mobility, survivability, and damage output (I haven't taken out my Merc healer yet since 2.0 dropped, so I can't comment on heals). We're still fairly vulnerable in all the ways we were before, but we're a bit more slippery, and Electronet + shorter rotation means we've become potentially very expensive kills (rather than simply free kills). That's an improvement.

 

But a movement buff + a single-tarket DoT snare were pretty standard fare pre-2.0. All the fundamental vulnerabilities of the Advanced Class are still there, relative to the other ACs. Any comparison with snipers is hogwash. I still appreciate the changes very much. It's much better now than it was before. But I don't think we're at par or particularly desired in RWZs.

[ArchangelLBC]

Well i'm playing a 55 commando, gunnery spec. I don't have that much of a problem with it. If you do get focused, then no, you will not be able to dps until you create some distance between you and your target, but with the tools you have, it's not impossible, albeit perhaps harder as a commando compared to other classes. (i don't even have the extra insta cast talent, and i don't cry as much as you do)

Love how every person who cries about commandos argue from the viewpoint that every utility ability is on cooldown 100% of the time, and that there is someone on them spamming interrupts 100% of the time.

 

I love how every person who says we're absolutely fine argues from the viewpoint of normal warzones and talks like your cooldowns are always available all the time. Our distance creators are on 20-30s cooldowns. Our really good "you're going to regret messing with me" cooldowns are on a 90s cooldown.

 

Yes in regulars I'm not having a problem at all. It's honestly been a breath of fresh air and I'm running around having an absolutely grand old time hitting 9k demo rounds, putting electro net on zealous maras while using hold the line and giggling like a school boy discovering breasts for the first time as they insist on trying to chase me. Oh Lord how I laugh and laugh and laugh.

 

But I also ask myself "if I were making a ranked team, would I take me on commando?". And since I'm honest, I have to admit that no I really wouldn't.

 

A gunnery commando is much like a sniper. They can provide absolutely devastating damage from outside the carnage of the main engagement area. Commandos can be gotten to, singled out, and killed though. Quite easily actually. Snipers do not have this issue. This makes snipers more of a problem for the opposing team, and they require LESS effort from their own team. So they're gonna keep being the go to ranged DPS class imo. That's just the way it is fellas. Nothing you're saying has had any bearing on that issue, and since you're clearly new here and not paying attention, that has been the point of this thread for a long long time.

 

Someone's mad cause they don't know how to play? Like the guy above me said, create distance. And if you're getting focused that much in ranked your healers/tanks should be good enough to keep you up as well.

 

Basically all that I got from your bitter reply is "I cannot just stand here and shoot and DPS people, I am broken."

 

 

Cool story bro.

Edited April 22, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Riggz]

Mercs suck less, but still suck

 

 

It's a start

[klham]

Mercs suck less, but still suck

 

 

It's a start

I think that's all we're getting for a while, aside maybe from number tweaks.

[DarthRaika]

Honestly sniper is 10 times better than merc right now. I don't mean in chart dmg as depending on the round a merc can crush the chart but in even matches where it really matters a sniper can hold his own and be a major threat where even the best merc can be easily shut down if the other team wants to.

 

I've had a bunch of the huge dmg rounds on my arsenal merc and I have even won a lot of 1v1s when needed but playing both a MM sniper and an arsenal merc it is handsdown the sniper threatwise.

[klham]

Agreed. I win a lot of 1v1's too, moreso now. But you still don't want a dps commando solo guarding a node when the chips are down. And the constant vulnerability to leaps is a real handicap for a ranged class. Once you're focused you can blow all your cooldowns to release some up-front burst and regain some range, but then they just leap on you again. All you did was set up their next attack for them. Gunslinger/Snipers don't have that problem. Edited April 23, 2013 by klham

[ArchangelLBC]

Yeah pretty much. Sad really =/

[Astarica]

If another class is better at ranged DPS while a Sniper is in cover then there would be no reason to have a Sniper. They're by design the least mobile ranged DPS in the game so they better be pretty good at doing damage while they're in cover. Whether Snipers do too much damage or not is another question, but Snipers just aren't good at doing damage while chasing down someone or even being mobile at all. This means for maps with obstructions, which is basically every one of them, you would have a very hard time finishing off a guy that managed to round the corner since the moment you leave cover you're likely to get brutalized.

 

Electro Net also creates a ton of space. Yes it's only up every 90s, because if it's up every 15s nobody should even play a melee. There are a lot of time where I literally get tossed to a bad place, and the Commando pops his Hydraluic Overrides so I can't force pull him and I have the choice of standing there and die, or chase after him and die. In a game that heavily emphasizes on mobility, Electro Net is the strongest anti-mobility move in the game by far and is one of the few abilities that reliably stops a pillar humping Op healer. Are Commandoes sort of weak when their cool moves are down? Possibly but they're really awesome when Electro Net is up, and to a lesser degree even Hydrolic Overrides is pretty scary.

[evilmoka]

Agreed. I win a lot of 1v1's too, moreso now. But you still don't want a dps commando solo guarding a node when the chips are down. And the constant vulnerability to leaps is a real handicap for a ranged class. Once you're focused you can blow all your cooldowns to release some up-front burst and regain some range, but then they just leap on you again. All you did was set up their next attack for them. Gunslinger/Snipers don't have that problem.

 

Yeah this is so true. We need a snare or something to keep them at distance. A silly net every 1.5 mins is nothing compared to a 15 second cd snare. Commadnos should get mines (like hunter trapns in wow) to stun, slow, heal etc. This is part of the group utility and survivability they are lacking

[Glower]

We really need this:

http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2010/09/Siege-tank-nyooo2.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ohNI3QJMMds/TF-sSS7IIDI/AAAAAAAAADc/l0YPVytq9T8/s1600/Screenshot2010-08-06+23_59_14.jpg

 

Not a sniper shield/roll/pew-pew but a fire platform with huge deployment time.

[ArchangelLBC]

If another class is better at ranged DPS while a Sniper is in cover then there would be no reason to have a Sniper. They're by design the least mobile ranged DPS in the game so they better be pretty good at doing damage while they're in cover. Whether Snipers do too much damage or not is another question, but Snipers just aren't good at doing damage while chasing down someone or even being mobile at all. This means for maps with obstructions, which is basically every one of them, you would have a very hard time finishing off a guy that managed to round the corner since the moment you leave cover you're likely to get brutalized.

 

Electro Net also creates a ton of space. Yes it's only up every 90s, because if it's up every 15s nobody should even play a melee. There are a lot of time where I literally get tossed to a bad place, and the Commando pops his Hydraluic Overrides so I can't force pull him and I have the choice of standing there and die, or chase after him and die. In a game that heavily emphasizes on mobility, Electro Net is the strongest anti-mobility move in the game by far and is one of the few abilities that reliably stops a pillar humping Op healer. Are Commandoes sort of weak when their cool moves are down? Possibly but they're really awesome when Electro Net is up, and to a lesser degree even Hydrolic Overrides is pretty scary.

 

Honestly commandos get just as brutalized when trying to move, except we get equally brutalized when standing still. It's not sniper damage I'm jealous of. It's sniper interrupt immunity, pushback immunity, and leap/pull immunity I'm jealous of. We're both better off standing back on the edges of the fray and raining down damage (and honestly not pursuing anyone who runs too far unless we can easily regain line of sight without entering into the main furball).

 

Additionally, the shortest cooldown I've seen requested for Electronet is 45 seconds, and many would be fine with a minute. Yes it's awesome when it's off cooldown. There's a lot of stuff that's awesome when it's off cooldown. But anything over a minute goes from being a reliable tool to being a clutch move. The rest of the time we have no baseline snare (and gunnery's only talented snare requires self rooting, while in order to guarantee assault's snare I have to spend 25 ammo, and it lasts 2 seconds, and it's only a 30s snare).

 

Nevertheless a class isn't balanced just because they can kill you when all their goodies are off cooldown. Good classes can kill you even when they don't have cooldowns up. Granted we're much better than we were when we were a free kill even WITH cooldowns available.

 

We're better than we were before, both objectively and in comparison to the other classes. But I don't think we're there yet. Definitely better though.

[Osxoba]

I think adding a ranged snare would be a a step in the right direction. I mean gunslingers and snipers effectively have a ranged snare just by them being immune to leaps, not to mention legshot root. Sure, they don't have heavy armor, but look at all the defensive cooldowns they have: Scrambling field, evasion, ballistic dampers (specced) defense screen.

Commandos have a 25% damage reduction shield.

 

Not only that, but if you go marksman, you can almost always stay out of melee range. Aim shot, pulse detonator, leg shot. Don't forget hightail it.

 

Commandos are slow and lumbering. On another note, why would it be so bad to give us immunity to interrupts, it only on full auto, which is a root anyways. I mean why on earth should slingers and sorcs get immunity to interrupts, when both of them have so much more mobility and power than a commando anyways?

[Jherad]

We really need this:

http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2010/09/Siege-tank-nyooo2.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ohNI3QJMMds/TF-sSS7IIDI/AAAAAAAAADc/l0YPVytq9T8/s1600/Screenshot2010-08-06+23_59_14.jpg

 

Not a sniper shield/roll/pew-pew but a fire platform with huge deployment time.

 

I love the idea of some kind of deployed immobile platform with a big damage bonus, but honestly I feel that the penalties it would need to occur in order to offset any bonuses would make it just yet another fun toy to play around in regs with whilst being impractical for RWZs.

 

I still think that the cooldown on electronet needs to come down quite a bit.

 

I also really REALLY want adrenaline rush to be redone or reverted. It is craptacular. At worst it ticks once and stops, at best it provides another second or two of time before I inevitably die horribly anyway (the hps is not great, no matter what the tooltip says). At least the old ability was consistently mediocre. If it triggered at 30% and stopped at 40% at least it would guarantee a minimum amount, and leave us just outside of 1-shot territory.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Jherad

[TUXs]

I also really REALLY want adrenaline rush to be redone or reverted. It is craptacular. At worst it ticks once and stops, at best it provides another second or two of time before I inevitably die horribly anyway (the hps is not great, no matter what the tooltip says). At least the old ability was consistently mediocre. If it triggered at 30% and stopped at 40% at least it would guarantee a minimum amount, and leave us just outside of 1-shot territory.

 

Yeah, who the **edit** thought it should be changed?! I thought it was 100% broken after doing WZ's where it wouldn't even freaking pop, but in PvE a few nights ago, I finally saw how it was "supposed" to work. It needs to be reverted. The "below 30%" thing is just a freaking dumb requirement. By the time you drop below 30% on PvP (28k health), that leaves me only 8k health - which is ONE shot for MANY classes.

[Jherad]

Yeah, those times where it doesn't look like it does anything at all?

 

Usually because something pushed you to *just* under the 30% mark, and adrenaline rush instantly ticks once, taking you just back over again, and then ends. Whereupon you then get flattened by a smash/maul/sorc-combo-of-doom/whatever.

 

Useless.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Jherad

[SkinzOCAU]

Yeah, those times where it doesn't look like it does anything at all?

 

Usually because something pushed you to *just* under the 30% mark, and adrenaline rush instantly ticks once, taking you just back over again, and then ends. Whereupon you then get flattened by a smash/maul/sorc-combo-of-doom/whatever.

 

Useless.

 

And did anyone from BW even think about the fact it keeps us at 30% actually does nothing against those classes with a dispatch ability, let alone the smashers.

 

Also, one thing I majorly DISLIKE BioFAIL for at the moment! So they spent time changing the animation for rapid scan for the Merc, whilst leaving Commando with the green beam... seriously? Are you that IGNORANT of what your customers have been begging for for over a year!?

 

As has been mentioned, the biggest problem for Merc or CM is the AC design. When you create classes like these and sages(sorcs) that rely so much on casts, then you allow so many abilities to interrupt, you are going to create an unfair system when those casts do not hit hard enough.

[T-Assassin]

Pillar hump. Cute. Please stop expressing opinions on the matter if you aren't educated enough to have valid ones. I can't stand the idiots like you who come in here and think they have any clue what they're talking about because they can top damage charts in lowbie or in unranked warzones. I can do that and I'm wearing PVE gear. That doesn't make the class good. That makes other people horrible.

 

 

 

I can admit, about a year ago, after I switched my main from Deception Assassin (server 1st BM!! yes my arm is sore from patting myself on the back ) to Merc I thought just like that dude...

 

Then came experience (other players), then came ranked, people learned their skills, interrupts and strategy (you won't fool me with fake casting)...

 

I agree w/ AALBC, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, unless you never step foot in ranked, or PvP vs. bads at non-peak hours.

 

It's fact, undisputable fact, amongst equally skilled players, Merc is at a SEVERE disadvantage. Far too easy to interrupt, must remain planted to cast for 109 out of every 110 seconds, abysmal defensive CD's, and burst damage is limited.

 

With TTK and the extreme skills of those in competitive ranked, Merc doesn't cut it. And the mere mention of pillar humping makes every Merc that has stuck with the class since 1.2 (and those that played against me pre 1.2 , I knew what an interrupt was!! ) become overwhelmed with emotion at the sheer ignorance of such a statement.

 

Pugs...all day. I don't think I need to partake in story time, share stories of my vaunted pug Merc damage, and ridiculous 75+kills 0death matches, or that I can play pillar hump&heal to dominate scrubs.

 

If you really want to convince the Merc community we are viable in Rankeds or even versus quality opponents, it will take more than a few big damage screenies...

 

I know, I made that same mistake almost a year ago to the day...

 

 

Not against decent players it's not. Are you 55 yet? I tried Gunnery this weekend in PvP and it sucks. 1v1 I was able to be shut down, like usual and in groups, I'd get off the occasional Grav Round shot, but EVERYTHING is too easy to interrupt - stuns, mez's, pushes, nades, pulls, mines...they ALL stop casting. In PvE, Commando is fine, but not even freaking close in PvP.

 

It's hard to argue with logic, fact, and evidence.

 

Tux, AALBC, Macro, Cash all know what they are talking about. Not saying that any of them, or myself, could be wrong, but, I'd listen to what they have to say with a keen ear. They have the experience and knowledge to back up their rhetoric.

[TUXs]

It's a sad day when this thread drops off the front page

[Osxoba]

I will not let it drop. Too many classes with way more going for them, whining that they got toned down and are no longer gods.

[AMKSED]

 

 

 

I can admit, about a year ago, after I switched my main from Deception Assassin (server 1st BM!! yes my arm is sore from patting myself on the back ) to Merc I thought just like that dude...

 

Then came experience (other players), then came ranked, people learned their skills, interrupts and strategy (you won't fool me with fake casting)...

 

I agree w/ AALBC, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about, unless you never step foot in ranked, or PvP vs. bads at non-peak hours.

 

It's fact, undisputable fact, amongst equally skilled players, Merc is at a SEVERE disadvantage. Far too easy to interrupt, must remain planted to cast for 109 out of every 110 seconds, abysmal defensive CD's, and burst damage is limited.

 

With TTK and the extreme skills of those in competitive ranked, Merc doesn't cut it. And the mere mention of pillar humping makes every Merc that has stuck with the class since 1.2 (and those that played against me pre 1.2 , I knew what an interrupt was!! ) become overwhelmed with emotion at the sheer ignorance of such a statement.

 

Pugs...all day. I don't think I need to partake in story time, share stories of my vaunted pug Merc damage, and ridiculous 75+kills 0death matches, or that I can play pillar hump&heal to dominate scrubs.

 

If you really want to convince the Merc community we are viable in Rankeds or even versus quality opponents, it will take more than a few big damage screenies...

 

I know, I made that same mistake almost a year ago to the day...

 

 

 

 

It's hard to argue with logic, fact, and evidence.

 

Tux, AALBC, Macro, Cash all know what they are talking about. Not saying that any of them, or myself, could be wrong, but, I'd listen to what they have to say with a keen ear. They have the experience and knowledge to back up their rhetoric.

 

Illum farm too hard.

 

I will admit the only thing I've seen that is stupid is the new 30% Health Regen heal. The only people it's really good vs are Sorcerers, Operatives, Commandos and Powertechs. But even those classes have enough spike to knock you down 30% of your health.

 

They really need to change it to where you hit 30% if your health you regen all the way up even past 30% for it's duration.

Edited April 23, 2013 by AMKSED