Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Jadescythe]

I love rolling up to a node in stealth, with another friendly stealther nearby, and each of us being able to predict what the other will do simply by our relative position on the map and the nearby turret/enemy. BAM, node taken. Words spoken, 0.

 

No speaking necessary. Just not sucking.

 

Premades are not the problem, and this is why Bioware will not acknowledge this "issue". There is not enough of a population to support dividing the queue between premade and solo, and they've said cross-server queues aren't possible with the current tech/software they run (though, I haven't seen the statement myself, just repeating what other forum users have said)

 

Pretty much this.

 

I stood in front of the node until they followed me a little ways. He started capping, I CC'd the two of them until he was done.

 

Link for your future use on cross server: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6398419&postcount=6

[shednik]

I love rolling up to a node in stealth, with another friendly stealther nearby, and each of us being able to predict what the other will do simply by our relative position on the map and the nearby turret/enemy. BAM, node taken. Words spoken, 0.

 

No speaking necessary. Just not sucking.

 

Premades are not the problem, and this is why Bioware will not acknowledge this "issue". There is not enough of a population to support dividing the queue between premade and solo, and they've said cross-server queues aren't possible with the current tech/software they run (though, I haven't seen the statement myself, just repeating what other forum users have said)

 

I like this guy/gal

 

I've done this many times as well with a fellow stealther...people communicating via chat is all you need to coordinate just like you would in a pre-made. The only real benefit to voice comms is that you don't have to stop and type to call something out, and the only real benefit to a pre-made is that you can choose the bads you want to play with.

[shednik]

Link for your future use on cross server: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6398419&postcount=6

 

My educated guess for the "significant challenge" is available capital for additional hardware and a properly designed architecture. Acquiring what is needed for both would require a significant investment from their stakeholders which doesn't appear to be in the cards.

[Jadescythe]

My educated guess for the "significant challenge" is available capital for additional hardware and a properly designed architecture. Acquiring what is needed for both would require a significant investment from their stakeholders which doesn't appear to be in the cards.

 

My educated guess is that it would have required a 3rd PvP dev

[shednik]

My educated guess is that it would have required a 3rd PvP dev

 

That was supposed to be implied with my comment of them needing a well designed architecture

[Zunayson]

I'm pro-premade, just to get that out of the way:

 

First, I need to explain what isomorphic means to those who do not know - it essentially means the same for a set of properties ("The same as far as we care"). So while two *things* are not the same per se, if they're isomorphic, then we can say "they're the same," because any property that is true for one object is true for the other.

 

What are some properties of a Pay to Win system that make people dislike it?

• No skill involved in the gear
  
• It takes money <- the reason for this property is an extension of #1. Money != skill
  

 

Now this is the weakest point of my argument - time is money. Spending time making money and then spending the money is in many ways, isomorphic to spending time to simply obtain gear.

 

What are some properties of a Play to Win system that some people dislike?

• No skill involved in the gear
  
• It takes time (see #1, time is independent of skill obtained - its just straight time)
  

 

Because Pay to Win and Play to Win (obtaining gear) are super similar in this view, I can say here that they're the same, because they both effect performance regardless of skill.

 

Conclusion: If P2W is bad, gear grinds are equally bad.

 

Doubt they ever will, cause there is no logic arguments to support current situation.

 

There is no logical* argument to say that its unfair for premades to play against pugs provided they do not use voice chat, which technically may or may not be against the ToS (It's a third part program, but obv they don't care)

 

What allegedly happens when a premade plays a pug?

- One team is substantially better than the other one, resulting in a curbstomp where the skill of any particular individual did not wholly contribute to it.

 

What happens when a skilled pug plays an unskilled pug?

- One team is substantially better than the other one, resulting in a curbstomp where the skill of any particular individual did not wholly contribute to it.

 

It looks like they're isomorphic (read: the same), so you should really be asking about matchmaking, not about stopping players from playing with their friends. Any rebuttal like "Well they just want easy wins" is besides the point, because you're only whining because you don't want a blatant loss. If its a "competitive" game as everyone says, then it should be about winning, should it not?

Edited December 6, 2013 by Zunayson

[Marrius]

Pugstomping is a name coined for those premades that use vent to coordinate and farm non vent users. It is unfair and unsportmanlike. It was a term i first read in a WoW post and was later used by Blizzard reps when equating it (pugstomping) to cheating.

After a rather miserable night of pvping (so many new players reached 55 and as a result more premades using vent.) I have sent a letter off to BW asking what if anything they plan on doing about this. I am not holding my breath but I am looking for another game now because even WoW is looking better than this rubbish.

 

I'd really like to meet one of these idjits IRL and get to know what kind of person would choose to hurt a game like this just for his own warped sence of fun (this being at the expense of others).

 

I don't think I would be surprised with the type of person I met though. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt I am.

[Uber_the_Goober]

Now this is the weakest point of my argument - time is money. Spending time making money and then spending the money is in many ways, isomorphic to spending time to simply obtain gear.

 

What are some properties of a Play to Win system that some people dislike?

• No skill involved in the gear
  
• It takes time (see #1, time is independent of skill obtained - its just straight time)
  

 

Because Pay to Win and Play to Win (obtaining gear) are super similar in this view, I can say here that they're the same, because they both effect performance regardless of skill.

 

Conclusion: If P2W is bad, gear grinds are equally bad.

 

...People who work at McDonalds have to spend a lot more time making 5000 cartel coins' worth of money than someone with mommy's credit card. This is why pay2win is bad.

 

...People who sit in their basements or rathole apartments, or other undesirable locations, playing hour after hour after hour, sucking all the while but gaining comms - end up with the same benefit as someone who pays2win. This is why play2win is bad.

 

...People who have a moderate amount of leisure time available to play a game, have a moderate amount of skill, and a moderate amount of disposable income (maybe the sub plus a few extra cartel coins here and there) make up the biggest demographic of MMO's. These people look with disdain upon the filthy loser gamers who sit in their basement/fathole apartment all day and night gaining comms. These people look with jealousy upon the rich or entitled who buy tons of coins and buy their gear with no effort.

 

Alienating the middle is bad. The entitled rich and the game-all-day crowd will always be there, regardless.

 

For the record, I'm agreeing with you, just presenting another viewpoint on the topic.

[cycao]

I'd really like to meet one of these idjits IRL and get to know what kind of person would choose to hurt a game like this just for his own warped sence of fun (this being at the expense of others).

 

I don't think I would be surprised with the type of person I met though. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt I am.

 

Yeah, we're all terrible people. Last night I robed a homeless person (stole his newish shopping cart).

[Uber_the_Goober]

Yeah, we're all terrible people. Last night I robed a homeless person (stole his newish shopping cart).

 

If you robed him, I'm sure he'd be grateful around this time of year. It's cold out.

[Ridickilis]

What server are you on? How long have you played? Were you in a guild b4 that assisted you gearing up? these are just a few factors. There are far more people with a continued and ongoing story of beiung farmed. Needless to say the only story that warants ending is yours.

 

Or maybe you are some kind of pvp prodigy. If thats the case share your techniques. If not you bring nothing to the table here so why even post unless your claims are simply rubbish and you are just trying to invalidate the legitimate claims of people being bullied because you in fact are one of the culprits.

 

Whoh, sorry I missed this post too busy in the GSF forums.

 

Started in Dec. 2011 on Frostclaw. Also had one toon on The Constant. Rolled a few more toons on both POT5, pubs only, cause I heard they sucked and I like challenges (when it was The Fatman) and another one on TOFN. I really started getting into the pvp at this point and really wanted some OWPVP action. Plus Fatman was the only heavy server at the time.

 

Was in a guild for 2 months at launch with a bunch of online friends from another site on Frostclaw before most left the game. Never even made it to 50 before we disbanded. So every toon I have was geared up by solo queuing.

 

My techniques? Minding objectives, not having an alpha personality and being content playing the supporting actor to whichever 4 man premade I got (if any) on my side instead of putting on my John Rambo beret. Waiting till teammates grouped up before jumping in one at a time only to get blown to bits in seconds...you know those kinds of things.

 

So there you go, though I'm guessing you really weren't interested in my toon's history, but there it is. Why did I post here? Because apparently I posted in this thread long ago (cause, you know, I've been here since launch) and I simply can't believe this thread is still ongoing after all this time.

 

And no I'm not uber leet. If I were to put an honest winning percentage on myself, it's probably around 50-55%.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Ridickilis

[PloGreen]

Pugstomping is a name coined for those premades that use vent to coordinate and farm non vent users. It is unfair and unsportmanlike. It was a term i first read in a WoW post and was later used by Blizzard reps when equating it (pugstomping) to cheating.

After a rather miserable night of pvping (so many new players reached 55 and as a result more premades using vent.) I have sent a letter off to BW asking what if anything they plan on doing about this. I am not holding my breath but I am looking for another game now because even WoW is looking better than this rubbish.

 

I'd really like to meet one of these idjits IRL and get to know what kind of person would choose to hurt a game like this just for his own warped sence of fun (this being at the expense of others).

 

I don't think I would be surprised with the type of person I met though. I would love to be wrong, but I doubt I am.

 

Winning a warzone with 3 other guildies in tow is not an act of supreme evil you know? People are just playing the game. That's all it is, nothing more than that - I think you take this very personally and have a slightly distorted view of what people are actually like. You can't just assume anyone who groups is a terrible individual, the whole point of player vs player is to kill the other team and take objectives. That's all anyone is actually doing, they are not mugging you in real life - they are just beating you in a game.

Edited December 6, 2013 by PloGreen

[EzioMessi]

People that are saying Premades are ruining warzones. I'd like to ask all of you whiners something.

 

Are you stupid/naïve enough to say that *every* premade *has* to be on VoIP, and will *always* have uber-leet players with the perfect comp? Well, you're wrong. I regularly premade with my guildies. Voice chat is rarely used for anything other than terrible jokes. Our healer is almost always a Sage or a Commando (in all truthfulness, I have *never* actually queued with a Scoundrel in my premade, nothing against the class, I simply don't have any friends who run that class). We routinely queue with less than full groups, and with terrible comps (like 3-4 DPS, or healer but no tank, or too many melees or something) often with players who openly admit they don't know much about PvP. Because we want to have fun. Just play. We play for the heck of it, not for the epeen wagging. And while you might just dismiss my guild as "another casual guild of bads" or whatever the hell you wanna call it, remember that the casuals are a *majority* in the game.

 

Premades != guaranteed win. Not even by a long shot. For one, good PuGs can beat premades with some effort. Been there, and done that. In a game of Huttball (I mention that because the design ensures that 2-3 healers on one side != automatic win). Another time in an arena, full premade with a healer and tank. Except, they were from a well known PvE-focused guild. The PuGs absolutely destroyed them.

 

Now here's the problem of forcing premades to face other premades exclusively. See, there *are* try-hard premades that are on VoIP, with perfect comps, and perfect players (apparently). Doesn't bother me, since I just see this as another challenge.

 

But imagine this. Premades like my own, queueing all the time, and nearly always facing the pros exclusively. For example, if I and some guildies queue with a buddy who doesn't know Huttball that well, and we want to try and teach him, no sir, we have to face the guys that have a cross-healed Juggernaut there, just leaping into the endzone.

 

When the player base is big (as it currently is in Regulars), over a period of time, you end up on both sides of the faceroll equation, and have plenty of 10-0 Alderaan matches, and 4-4 Huttball matches, and last man 1v1 Arenas and whatnot. Force all the premades to queue together, and the good ones will wipe the floor with new ones, all the time, every minute of the day. The chances of you ending up on the same group as the good premade is a *lot* lower because you are now in your own premade.

 

Forcing premades into one queue is not the solution. The true solution will be an effective matchmaking system, that lets the bads smash away at bads, decent players to fight decent players, and pros to fight pros.

 

The pros will love this, the good kind of bads will get a level playing field to improve in, and the bad bads will get to keep their illusion of being awesome without ruining games for others.

[DarthRaika]

I'm pro-premade, just to get that out of the way:

 

 

You seem like a rather logical person and so I would just like to say why I think matchmaking and mixed faction teams are sorely needed.

 

While there may not be an obviously inherent reason that (outside of voice chat) premades have an advantage, basic experience irl should tell us they do.

 

The difference is choice. A premade can choose 50% of their team's composition, gear, skill, and experience. If they choose poorly (like many do ) that is their fault, however the pug player does not have this choice. This choice is what leads to pugstomping and uneven matches. This is also why there are so many premaders who rarely pug. They understand this.

 

I am not for a premade only Q btw. I am only for premade matching and mixed faction teams. That would make for many more even matches than there are now. The outcome of most matches is obvious within the first minute under the current system. Also premade matching would make good players with decent irls want to premade again.

[Marrius]

People that are saying Premades are ruining warzones. I'd like to ask all of you whiners something. .

 

Are you stupid/naïve enough to say that *every* premade *has* to be on VoIP, and will *always* have uber-leet players with the perfect comp? .

 

Are you able to make a comment without being rude or insulting? It stikes me that if you aren't able to comment without name calling then the stupidity that you so bluntly refer to may only exist with you.

 

Premades != guaranteed win. Not even by a long shot. .

 

Had you read some of the previous posts you would have been infomed on the idea that premades are a form of organization and that organization is more likely to win over chaos. The example that was used stipulated that when a group of friends get together one friend will take the mantle of being leader. In so doing the group becomes organised. When the group goes out for beer, or to watch a game, etc. one member of that group will have more influence than others (The leader). So when a group of people form a premade the idea then is that one person will direct while the others follow. If this idea is not abided by then the people not abiuding will likely be dropped from the premade or the premade will disband thus being noithing more than a pug.

 

Now, that being said, If a premade is using VOIP(vent, mumble, TS) these people are using a 3rd party program which is in fact a violation of the TOS. Yes we all know that BW will not action against the use of VOIP programs, they are too afraid of alienating any more of their dwindinly subscriber base. But that does not make the use of VOIP any less of a violation. Putting it bluntly, unless the TOS is changed to allow 3rd party programs or a VOIP program is installed in the game for all to use, those using such programs are, by definition, cheating.

 

Your ideas on matchmaking will work only if BW takes the time to code a proper (working) system. Until then we are left to self govern and thus far we are failing miserably.

[cycao]

 

Now, that being said, If a premade is using VOIP(vent, mumble, TS) these people are using a 3rd party program which is in fact a violation of the TOS. Yes we all know that BW will not action against the use of VOIP programs, they are too afraid of alienating any more of their dwindinly subscriber base. But that does not make the use of VOIP any less of a violation. Putting it bluntly, unless the TOS is changed to allow 3rd party programs or a VOIP program is installed in the game for all to use, those using such programs are, by definition, cheating.

 

 

Holy hell man. Id bet over half of the players (AKA the majority) use a form of VoIP.

[MotorCityMan]

It is the actual behavior of Premades that reveal that they know better than anyone else the advantages they enjoy over pugs. That's why they avoid ranked like the plague. They avoided 8v8 and they avoid 4v4. Premade players can spout all the nonsense they want on the forums. They do not want to compete against a team that has the same advantages of pre-selection, cooperation, and communication that they enjoy. They consistently choose regular warzones because they know their chances of winning against teams who enjoy none of these advantages are much greater. That's all there is to it. The rest is just gobbledygook. Edited December 10, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[cycao]

It is the actual behavior of Premades that reveal that they know better than anyone else the advantages they enjoy over pugs. That's why they avoid ranked like the plague. They avoided 8v8 and they avoid 4v4. Premade players can spout all the nonsense they want on the forums. They do not want to compete against a team that has the same advantages of pre-selection, cooperation, and communication that they enjoy. They consistently choose regular warzones because they know their chances of winning against teams who enjoy none of these advantages are much greater.

 

It's not our fault 90% of the player base sucks at this game.

[MotorCityMan]

It's not our fault 90% of the player base sucks at this game.

 

Who's fault is it that you spout some off the wall made up stat to troll other SWTOR players?

Edited December 10, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[cycao]

Who's fault is it that you spout some off the wall made up stat to troll other SWTOR players?

 

It's not a made up stat. Literally 90% of the player base is god awful at PvP in this game and that includes pugs and premades. Maybe an argument can be made for 80%.

[Technohic]

You could ban premades all together, but that would not stop the steam rolls when you get on a bad team. I had a screenshot where I was on a PUG team in CW and our shields took all of 1 tick of damage the entier match. No premades were involved, nor do I think one could have saved how terrible the other team was had they replaced 4 players for one.

 

Seriously. I could see premades being a problem to an extent but I am more amazed on just how terrible some players are in a game that isn't all that hard. Maybe they spend too much time blaming premades? I bet the team we put a beatdown on had at least one guy saying "OMG! Premade!"

[cycao]

You could ban premades all together, but that would not stop the steam rolls when you get on a bad team. I had a screenshot where I was on a PUG team in CW and our shields took all of 1 tick of damage the entier match. No premades were involved, nor do I think one could have saved how terrible the other team was had they replaced 4 players for one.

 

Seriously. I could see premades being a problem to an extent but I am more amazed on just how terrible some players are in a game that isn't all that hard. Maybe they spend too much time blaming premades? I bet the team we put a beatdown on had at least one guy saying "OMG! Premade!"

 

I'm not saying premades can not steamroll players. They totally can. But what it usually comes down to 9/10 times is good players beating bad players. Which is why I've been pro matchmaking for all forms of PvP.

[Technohic]

I'm not saying premades can not steamroll players. They totally can. But what it usually comes down to 9/10 times is good players beating bad players. Which is why I've been pro matchmaking for all forms of PvP.

 

Decent matchmaking would be a godsend, but I don't think it will happen. That and cross-server Qs together could really go a long way on this game and I think you'd need both to make it work and we know where they stand on the cross server stuff.

[cycao]

Decent matchmaking would be a godsend, but I don't think it will happen. That and cross-server Qs together could really go a long way on this game and I think you'd need both to make it work and we know where they stand on the cross server stuff.

 

Yep with cross servers never happening I agree that proper matchmaking will never be possible. That and with the dwindling server populations I don't think that any server could survive another split in queues.

[Zunayson]

You seem like a rather logical person and so I would just like to say why I think matchmaking and mixed faction teams are sorely needed.

 

While there may not be an obviously inherent reason that (outside of voice chat) premades have an advantage, basic experience irl should tell us they do.

 

The difference is choice. A premade can choose 50% of their team's composition, gear, skill, and experience. If they choose poorly (like many do ) that is their fault, however the pug player does not have this choice. This choice is what leads to pugstomping and uneven matches. This is also why there are so many premaders who rarely pug. They understand this.

 

I am not for a premade only Q btw. I am only for premade matching and mixed faction teams. That would make for many more even matches than there are now. The outcome of most matches is obvious within the first minute under the current system. Also premade matching would make good players with decent irls want to premade again.

 

The bit about choice is a good point. Any pug who would be knowledgeable enough to know what is optimal is sorely different than being able to actually implement that optimization in his team. This indeed supports the fact that a matchmaking system needs to be added, because this team based game can only be "competitive" when a team member is comfortable with his team

 

Another thing to point out is LOL @ avoiding the 8v8 ranked scene -

 

I know on my server, 8v8 was the same guild farming essentially pug'd teams (teams with things like undergeared mercs with fortitude stims - yeah pros can play, not the average pug!).

 

There was no inherent difference between rated and normal 8v8. Rateds was so dead, that essentially any matchmaking system that may or may not've been there (I avoided it - it was dead) was moot, because only 16 people would be queueing at a time.

 

I'm using past tense because the arenas, at least for now, are hyped with larger populations. Obviously there is a matchmaking system, however bad it may be, to differentiate it from the yolo WZ queue. Since most players are indeed casual (not the same as extremely skilled, but neither mutually exclusive), they play for fun. I know my guild enjoys 8v8 and meh about arenas, so we just premade the solo queue. The other guilds on the server feel similarly, so matches tend to be pretty competitive, with a few unfortunate pug bystanders.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Zunayson