Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[anwg]

There is matchmaking in regs. Talked to Devs in person about this. It first try to pair pre made vs pre made. They also have a metric similar to rating which try to pair within certain ranges.

 

Yep, whenever I'm in a pre-made or grouped with one there's usually another on the other side.

[MotorCityMan]

There is matchmaking in regs. Talked to Devs in person about this. It first try to pair pre made vs pre made. They also have a metric similar to rating which try to pair within certain ranges.

 

The longer you are in que, the more relaxed these rules get. Meaning that as you wait for a queue pop, every so often it expands the ratings That it is trying to pair you with. The problem is population. This doesn't work correctly most of the tone because not enough queues.

 

But there isa matchmaking system for regs similar to ranked.

 

Would like to believe this, but I don't. There have been many threads on this topic for months and not once has a dev come here to say that or even bothered to contribute. Maybe you were told that, but I still don't believe it to be true.

[Brimmer]

Would like to believe this, but I don't. There have been many threads on this topic for months and not once has a dev come here to say that or even bothered to contribute. Maybe you were told that, but I still don't believe it to be true.

 

Been years without a response. I doubt we'll ever get one.

[Zunayson]

The definition "catering to bads" is a view of a shortminded leet player. Improving the matchmaking system makes the PVP more fun and competitive for all players involved.

 

Besides that, the real world aint exactly perfect is it ? Were talking about a game here wich is alot easier to improve then improving the world.

 

On one hand, you say an equal playing field makes the game more competitive.

 

On the other hand, click this button to have a 50% chance to win is not competitive, but it is an equal playing field.

 

A rich person isnt rich if the poor are made rich. A rich person doesn't feel rich if he is accustomed to the rich way of life (that is, cannot appreciate the fact that he is rich).

 

A skilled person isnt skilled if the bad are made good via handicap. A skilled person doesn't feel skilled if he is accustomed to only playing other skilled people. Matchmaking based on skill doesn't make sense. You cannot draw a line and say "okay this skill deviation is allowed, but this 5-50 stuff isn't.".

 

Someone will always be better. Trying to stop that is essentially trying to make it all ties, giving out participation trophies, etc.

 

Someone will always be better. Do not try to stop it. Let the bads be crushed. INB4 poor get poorer. I'm not saying let the poor get poorer. I'm saying get them to improve themselves. A wise man once said something along the lines of... most of the complaints on the pvp forums would be settled if 90% of the pvp population would accept that the notion that they're skilled at pvp is simply false.

 

If the poor are too stupid/bad to unpoor themselves, then they are snuffed out as social darwinism suggests.

 

As ultra bads quit, the skill deviation decreases, slowly stabilizing the population.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Zunayson

[DarthRaika]

Is anyone posting in this thread against a basic matchmaking system and why?

 

Let's answer that question and discuss the reasons people are against matchmaking. Maybe then we can get somewhere. The devs won't do anything but at least it will be constructive.

[Jorojus]

On one hand, you say an equal playing field makes the game more competitive.

 

On the other hand, click this button to have a 50% chance to win is not competitive, but it is an equal playing field.

 

A rich person isnt rich if the poor are made rich. A rich person doesn't feel rich if he is accustomed to the rich way of life (that is, cannot appreciate the fact that he is rich).

 

A skilled person isnt skilled if the bad are made good via handicap. A skilled person doesn't feel skilled if he is accustomed to only playing other skilled people. Matchmaking based on skill doesn't make sense. You cannot draw a line and say "okay this skill deviation is allowed, but this 5-50 stuff isn't.".

 

Someone will always be better. Trying to stop that is essentially trying to make it all ties, giving out participation trophies, etc.

 

Yes someone will always be better, but that still doesn't make any sense that you have warzones where one team has 3 healers and a tank while the other has 1 healer and 7 dps.

 

IF population ofcourse is the only argument why its not able to change the current matchmaking, the PVP is already dead / or will stay like it is now wich is nothing big, servers with no ranked que etc, unless changes come up. (I am in the group that will keep playing, but I am pretty sure a majority will not)

 

You are missing the point here, you just blabbling about players that are better and that's the way it is. A matchmaking system would have to sort player firstly on role and then on beeing good or better based on wins/losses.

 

How do you make bads better by giving them more opportunity to be in more balanced games ? Premading is easy win vs a 8 man pug team. If you are a good player with any sense of morale you will not deny this.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Jorojus

[sphyg]

Would like to believe this, but I don't. There have been many threads on this topic for months and not once has a dev come here to say that or even bothered to contribute. Maybe you were told that, but I still don't believe it to be true.

 

Eric Musco was there when we were discussing this... Maybe he could confirm or deny it....

[Anzel]

You must not understand PvP a lot. You say yourself that you're not very good, which makes any and all arguments you make about skill in this game null... (insert a bunch of other spite filled superior nonsense here)

 

No, this has nothing to do with a 10:1 or more disparity in kills between ***any two teams. Especially when it's blatantly obvious that one team is cheating. Maybe you're just worried they will start cracking down on your $29.99 macro program the way they did with the speed hacks LOL.

[Zunayson]

Yes someone will always be better, but that still doesn't make any sense that you have warzones where one team has 3 healers and a tank while the other has 1 healer and 7 dps.

 

IF population ofcourse is the only argument why its not able to change the current matchmaking, the PVP is already dead, or only a very small portion will keep on playing unless changes come up. (I am in the group that will keep playing, but I am pretty sure a majority will not)

 

Why?

 

You basically agreed with my fundamental fact, and then stated that something didn't make sense. You have absolutely no reason to say "that doens't make sense," nor did you walk me through your thought process.

 

No, this has nothing to do with a 10:1 or more disparity in kills between ***any two teams. Especially when it's blatantly obvious that one team is cheating. Maybe you're just worried they will start cracking down on your $29.99 macro program the way they did with the speed hacks LOL.

 

Your sentences are oddly disconnected.

 

First, you disagreed with me and said that my assumption that your earlier post being about kill disparities was wrong (Without actually correcting me?). Then you emphasized that with the false and naive assumption that one entire team is cheating. Then you finish off with an ad hominem fallacy.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Zunayson

[Jorojus]

Why?

 

You basically agreed with my fundamental fact, and then stated that something didn't make sense. You have absolutely no reason to say "that doens't make sense," nor did you walk me through your thought process.

 

You are only talking about better players and placing the balance there. I am talking about a matchmaking system that balances roles as even as possible on the first place AND, good and bad players in an evenly way possible to create a more challenging environment.

 

Any pre-mader, that is actually a good player has no problem queeing solo now and then, the only reason most players go in a pre-made is because the current matchmaking system is too random and doesn't give em a 90 procent winning chance.

 

I admit if I play 5 games solo and I lost them all I am just inviting friends in a group because I KNOW I will win. If you don't understand my point now I give up.

 

Try stepping out of the prototype shortminded "leet" player mindset for a minute, and try thinking why the population in this game is so low / you are getting so few ranked pops on alot of servers.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Jorojus

[Anzel]

Your sentences are oddly disconnected.

 

First, you disagreed with me and said that my assumption that your earlier post being about kill disparities was wrong (Without actually correcting me?). Then you emphasized that with the false and naive assumption that one entire team is cheating. Then you finish off with an ad hominem fallacy.

 

I dunno... it's pretty clear to others here. You have premades going in and using cheats against pugs. We all know what's going on here. Not sure how that's so difficult to understand.

[Jorojus]

I dunno... it's pretty clear to others here. You have premades going in and using cheats against pugs. We all know what's going on here. Not sure how that's so difficult to understand.

 

Dude seriously, I haven't encountered anyone cheating in this game for the 2 years that I am playing, or at least I haven't been aware of anyone having an unfair advantage over me based on the gameplay. (not taking matchmaking and pre-mades in consideration).

 

So stop trolling and just say what you want to say or stop posting random nonsense.

[Zunayson]

You are only talking about better players and placing the balance there. I am talking about a matchmaking system that balances roles as even as possible on the first place AND, good and bad players in an evenly way possible to create a more challenging environment.

 

Any pre-mader, that is actually a good player has no problem queeing solo now and then, the only reason most players go in a pre-made is because the current matchmaking system is too random and doesn't give em a 90 procent winning chance.

 

I admit if I play 5 games solo and I lost them all I am just inviting friends in a group because I KNOW I will win. If you don't understand my point now I give up.

 

Try stepping out of the prototype shortminded "leet" player mindset for a minute, and try thinking why the population in this game is so low / you are getting so few ranked pops on alot of servers.

 

You say you want a competitive environment. One of competition's properties is the desire to win.

 

You think of premades as being some sort of handicap to ensure a win. On the other hand, think of most pugs as a handicap that will penalize you, regardless of your own personal skill. Premades and pugs, then, are quite similar in the sense that the outcome of a match is not wholly dependent on your own skill. The only difference, then, under this "view" of premades that I'm getting from your post, is that one usually contributes to a loss and the other a win.

 

If you're condemning the desire to win this alleged "competitive" game you want, you're a hypocrite and you're only arguing anti-premade because you're tired of pugs.

 

I understand where your're coming from but you offer no analytical reasoning to support your argument - only a thesis.

 

I dunno... it's pretty clear to others here. You have premades going in and using cheats against pugs. We all know what's going on here. Not sure how that's so difficult to understand.

 

You gave me a semi-logical response earlier. I think you're just trolling at this point. With a gigantic 1.5 second GCD, scripts hardly give an advantage anyways. You have no proof of any script that any premade is using. Surely there is at least one group of players cheating, but pretending like consistent, back to back 1:10 matches lost is based on a fraction of a percent of the population base is laughable at best.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Zunayson

[SajPl]

I dunno... it's pretty clear to others here. You have premades going in and using cheats against pugs. We all know what's going on here. Not sure how that's so difficult to understand.

 

Well you are a pug and you know about cheats. I'm, a premader and I didnt know abvout any cheats. Conclusion : pugs probably cheat more because they know about cheats.

 

On a side not it''s all a conspiracy, the cheats, the premades, they are all out to ruin your fun. The mad alien scientist is behind it. It's a conspiracy I say!

[Marrius]

I have been going through the last 20 pages of this thread just to see where the community is on this issue.

I noticed a couple or things:

 

1) The same 1/2 dozen people are consistently harassing people who post against pugstomping.

2) The eloquence of speech is severely lacking with those for pugstomping compared to that of those that are against pugstomping.

 

The general arguments go as follows...

 

post 1: (Well written post with supportive arguments and comparisons speaking against pugstomping)

post 2: (slanderous, passive aggressive snipes picking on parts of post that sound in their minds like whining.)

 

The majority of cussing also come from those that want threads like this to go away.

 

My conclusion? Those of us with an education and good jobs are being drawn into stupid arguments with trailer trash.

 

Those of us with more than two neurotransmitters firing in our brain know that a fair game is more enjoyable than an unfair game. That no matter how much some country bumpkin hillbilly tells us to quit whining over getting beat by their unfair practices; we know that the only successes in their lives will be in their virtual worlds. And we also know that it is those of us with means that primarily support this game (financially) so when it comes down to it, BW will abide by those of us that present our cases like civilized educated people because we are the ones with what BW is after, money.

 

So call us whiners, tell us our threads are dead, cajole us for speaking against your bullying. In the end it will be as it always has been, we will win and you will lose.

[Zunayson]

I have been going through the last 20 pages of this thread just to see where the community is on this issue.

I noticed a couple or things:

 

1) The same 1/2 dozen people are consistently harassing people who post against pugstomping.

2) The eloquence of speech is severely lacking with those for pugstomping compared to that of those that are against pugstomping.

 

The general arguments go as follows...

 

post 1: (Well written post with supportive arguments and comparisons speaking against pugstomping)

post 2: (slanderous, passive aggressive snipes picking on parts of post that sound in their minds like whining.)

 

The majority of cussing also come from those that want threads like this to go away.

 

My conclusion? Those of us with an education and good jobs are being drawn into stupid arguments with trailer trash.

 

Those of us with more than two neurotransmitters firing in our brain know that a fair game is more enjoyable than an unfair game. That no matter how much some country bumpkin hillbilly tells us to quit whining over getting beat by their unfair practices; we know that the only successes in their lives will be in their virtual worlds. And we also know that it is those of us with means that primarily support this game (financially) so when it comes down to it, BW will abide by those of us that present our cases like civilized educated people because we are the ones with what BW is after, money.

 

So call us whiners, tell us our threads are dead, cajole us for speaking against your bullying. In the end it will be as it always has been, we will win and you will lose.

The irony of your post is that it is filled derogatory speech. So is mine, so beware!

 

I will give you three scenarios and you will answer fair or unfair in your head:

 

1. Heads I win tails you win

• If you say fair - you are correct.
  
• If you say unfair - you're stupid.
  

 

2. Who can run faster? I'm 10 meters from the finish line, and you're 20 meters from the finish line

• If you say fair - you're stupid.
  
• If you say unfair - you are correct.
  

 

3. Who can run faster? We're the same distance from the finish line, and all factors are Identical, except for the sole fact that you're obese and I'm not.

• If you say fair - you can argue what you want it is up to debate
  
• If you say unfair - If you say fair - you can argue what you want it is up to debate
  

 

So here it is. Please do correct me if you disagree with any of my assertions or reasons - and do include your own assertions or reasons, else we get nowhere. Not like we'll get anywhere anyways. But if I'm trailer trash, at least I want my trailer to be a mobile home.

[EzioMessi]

I have yet to see you premade haters try to answer my main question.

 

If they separate the queues, what do casual premade guilds do? Disband? Because now, they're not going to face anyone on the same skill level as them.

 

The stomping works both ways whiners.

[Zunayson]

General assertions for competition analysis

Analogy

A competition is a test much like a science experiment.

It has three variables:

• Independent variable - the best ones have only 1 of these. This is what varies. I call it the S set
  
• Dependent variable - the best only have one of these - this is what you measure. I call it the P set
  
• Controls/constants - everything else stays the same in order to not skew the cause/effect results. I call it the N set.
  

 

Definitions

You can think of a competition of something along the lines of "What is the effect of skill on the performance of a team in this competition?" where skill is defined as a set of properties, I will call the S(kill) set, and performance is defined as a different set of properties, I will call these the P(erformance) set. All other properties that are not tested nor changed fall into the N(on skill) set.

 

Now we need to define S, N, and P;

 

S set:

• Teamwork
  
• Map knowledge
  
• Reflex
  
• LoS
  
• CC
  
• Cooldown management
  
• Class knowledge
  
• Any damned thing that we would define as "skill"
  

 

P set:

• Kills
  
• Damage
  
• Healing
  
• Win/Loss
  
• rating
  
• Outcomes of matches, mvp votes, etc.
  

 

N set:

• Everything else.
  
• Number of players per team
  
• Gear
  
• Lag
  
• Team composition
  
• Luck
  
• you know. Stuff that makes unfair advantages.
  

 

Assertions

1. The S set of a competition can vary with its participants.
   
2. If the S set varies, it is not cheating. It is a fair advantage.
   
3. The N set cannot vary.
   
4. If the N set varies, an unfair advantage is present.
   
5. If the N set varies, it's usually called cheating.
   
6. Because the S set varies, the P set will vary.
   

...

we can add more as the discussion goes on.

 

When we put all this together, you see that (and do correct me if you don't agree with something) a premade's only advantage is voice chat, and guaranteed team composition. The former is against the ToS technically (although I will give you that nobody gives a flying ****), and will always be there. The latter can be fixed with a simple matchmaking algorithm. I'm totally for matchmaking things within the N set. Definitely NOT within the S set, though.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Zunayson

[EzioMessi]

General assertions for competition analysis

Analogy

A competition is a test much like a science experiment.

It has two variables:

• Independent variable - the best ones have only 1 of these. This is what varies.
  
• Dependent variable - the best only have one of these - this is what you measure.
  

 

Definitions

You can think of a competition of something along the lines of "What is the effect of skill on the performance of a team in this competition?" where skill is defined as a set of properties, I will call the S(kill) set, and performance is defined as a different set of properties, I will call these the P(erformance) set. All other properties that are not tested nor changed fall into the N(on skill) set.

 

Now we need to define S, N, and P;

 

S set:

• Teamwork
  
• Map knowledge
  
• Reflex
  
• LoS
  
• CC
  
• Cooldown management
  
• Class knowledge
  
• Any damned thing that we would define as "skill"
  

 

P set:

• Kills
  
• Damage
  
• Healing
  
• Win/Loss
  
• rating
  
• Outcomes of matches, mvp votes, etc.
  

 

N set:

• Everything else.
  
• Number of players per team
  
• Gear
  
• Lag
  
• Team composition
  
• Luck
  
• you know. Stuff that makes unfair advantages.
  

 

Assertions

1. The S set of a competition can vary with its participants.
   
2. If the S set varies, it is not cheating. It is a fair advantage.
   
3. The N set cannot vary.
   
4. If the N set varies, an unfair advantage is present.
   
5. If the N set varies, it's usually called cheating.
   
6. Because the S set varies, the P set will vary.
   

...

we can add more as the discussion goes on.

 

When we put all this together, you see that (and do correct me if you don't agree with something) a premade's only advantage is voice chat, and guaranteed team composition. The former is against the ToS technically (although I will give you that nobody gives a flying ****), and will always be there. The latter can be fixed with a simple matchmaking algorithm. I'm totally for matchmaking things within the N set. Definitely NOT within the S set, though.

 

This makes so much sense... You should make it into its own thread.

[Marrius]

The irony of your post is that it is filled derogatory speech. So is mine, so beware!

 

I will give you three scenarios and you will answer fair or unfair in your head:

 

1. Heads I win tails you win

• If you say fair - you are correct.
  
• If you say unfair - you're stupid.
  

 

2. Who can run faster? I'm 10 meters from the finish line, and you're 20 meters from the finish line

• If you say fair - you're stupid.
  
• If you say unfair - you are correct.
  

 

3. Who can run faster? We're the same distance from the finish line, and all factors are Identical, except for the sole fact that you're obese and I'm not.

• If you say fair - you can argue what you want it is up to debate
  
• If you say unfair - If you say fair - you can argue what you want it is up to debate
  

 

So here it is. Please do correct me if you disagree with any of my assertions or reasons - and do include your own assertions or reasons, else we get nowhere. Not like we'll get anywhere anyways. But if I'm trailer trash, at least I want my trailer to be a mobile home.

 

Actually I don't disagree with your analogies at all. But I fail to understand where you are going with it. Please elaborate.

[Zunayson]

Actually I don't disagree with your analogies at all. But I fail to understand where you are going with it. Please elaborate.

 

Clearly, a morbidly obese person cannot "compete" with Usain Bolt. However, that does not mean that an unfair advantage is present. An advantage is surely present - Usain will almost always win. My argument, then, is that some variance in skill is permit able in a competition. Your comprehension of my earlier post shows that I don't need to spell it out for you - pros beat bads.

 

See my mock logical post: assertions for competition analysis which is my most recent post before this one.

 

Its a more formal, objective look at competitions, and is where most of my assumptions and assertions are.

[Marrius]

I have yet to see you premade haters try to answer my main question.

 

If they separate the queues, what do casual premade guilds do? Disband? Because now, they're not going to face anyone on the same skill level as them.

 

The stomping works both ways whiners.

 

Thank you for exemplifying my prior post (2 posts ago)

 

That being said, I don't want separate ques. I just don't want premades allowed. They have had thier time and have proven to unballance the WZ/arenas. Players should not be allowed to que as a group anymore because the idea of queing with your friends has been abused to the point that the dissadvantages now outweigh the advantages.

 

I have posed at least twice on how organised groups have more of a chance of winning over an unorganised group. The fact that premades are the only ones using VOIP is a further abuse of the system not to mention against the TOS.

 

So make one que, get rid of ranked (or non-ranked) and premades and let the bodies fall as they may.

[EzioMessi]

Thank you for exemplifying my prior post (2 posts ago)

 

That being said, I don't want separate ques. I just don't want premades allowed. They have had thier time and have proven to unballance the WZ/arenas. Players should not be allowed to que as a group anymore because the idea of queing with your friends has been abused to the point that the dissadvantages now outweigh the advantages.

 

I have posed at least twice on how organised groups have more of a chance of winning over an unorganised group. The fact that premades are the only ones using VOIP is a further abuse of the system not to mention against the TOS.

 

So make one que, get rid of ranked (or non-ranked) and premades and let the bodies fall as they may.

 

Ohhhhh... I get it. So no more playing with friends for a Massively Multiplaying Online RPG? lol at that logic.

 

P.S. How is it against the ToS against? AFAIK, the only thing ToS doesn't allow is automation of actions, and services that directly modify the SWTOR UI. And voice services are easily used without either.

Edited December 11, 2013 by EzioMessi

[Marrius]

Clearly, a morbidly obese person cannot "compete" with Usain Bolt. However, that does not mean that an unfair advantage is present. An advantage is surely present - Usain will almost always win. My argument, then, is that some variance in skill is permit able in a competition. Your comprehension of my earlier post shows that I don't need to spell it out for you - pros beat bads.

 

See my mock logical post: assertions for competition analysis which is my most recent post before this one.

 

Its a more formal, objective look at competitions, and is where most of my assumptions and assertions are.

 

Ok so, forgive me if I am wrong here, we seem to agree on what the problem is and how to solve it. I love your breakdown and yes premades and voip (the two go hand in hand) are 'N' factors.

 

So if something in 'N' is present that is unbalancing the game... get rid of it. No?

[Jarvus]

Here's a translation of how these ringer teams view the following two words they keep using:

 

Pros = Them, those who stack a team queue with their party of MMO trifecta heaven including each of dps, tank and heals, essentially winning right away before it starts if the opposing pug lacks either a healer or a tank to counter that advantage.

 

Bads = Everyone else.

 

I can assure you I'm not bad. My PC could use some improvement to step up my game but I have no problems hitting the very top of the scoreboard in more than 50% of the warzones I play as a deception-based sin. You're pointing to these people you faceroll and assuming they're simply prey and that's natural, and you chalk up the wins you keep seeing to this difference (you, good. them, bad). It's a terrible oversimplification that sidesteps the voicechat issue as well as the party composition issue and that teamwork already practiced among those in your party.