Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Jarvus]

Like I told you already but that you seemed to ignore, you can cast aside that analogy offered by me and independently by others too, in favor of any of the other analogies of a rigged poker game or whatever you want. Don't get emotionally bent out of shape over an analogy that was meant to describe the unfair imbalance and the total domination that PVP is when a team of ringers enters a warzone.

[Zunayson]

Wow, we're still pretending? So all abilities respect the GCD? Really? You sure about that?

 

Skill only matters when everything else is equal. That's why they have weight divisions in BJJ and MMA. Anthony Pettis is one of the best pound for pound fighters out there. He's a decent BJJ Purple Belt as well. Guess how well he would do against Jr. Dos Santos? Yeah... he would get murdered. In the IBJJF they match you up by Gender, Age, Weight, Rank. The Mundials have literally hundreds of brackets.

 

Same with PvP. You can take 8 people, fully geared, in the same room, with hacking tools and put them against a team of random people (who aren't cheating) and tell me the difference is skill. Does skill matter? Sure it does... when everything else is equal.

 

they should have skill divisions! Then everything will be equal!

[Anzel]

Like I told you already but that you seemed to ignore, you can cast aside that analogy offered by me and independently by others too, in favor of any of the other analogies of a rigged poker game or whatever you want. Don't get emotionally bent out of shape over an analogy that was meant to describe the unfair imbalance and the total domination that PVP is when a team of ringers enters a warzone.

 

I love how a team of eight people, fully geared, using a hack, all Q'ing together against random people keep screaming, "Oh we are just so masterful. So skillful. Yeah, that's it." Skill has ****nothing to do with anything when all eight people on the other team are cheating.

[CommanderKeeva]

If we keep this thread going on long enough, they might decide to print the posts and publish it in a book.

[Jorojus]

You're like the 2nd person to compare rape to premades. F*ck is wrong with you?

 

Tbh every time I am in an arena with a pre-made I start the fight with : "Start rape in 3,2,1 ...."

Edited December 10, 2013 by Jorojus

[cycao]

Like I told you already but that you seemed to ignore, you can cast aside that analogy offered by me and independently by others too, in favor of any of the other analogies of a rigged poker game or whatever you want. Don't get emotionally bent out of shape over an analogy that was meant to describe the unfair imbalance and the total domination that PVP is when a team of ringers enters a warzone.

 

Well when you know someone who has been raped and someone uses it in any analogy it sickens me.

 

I love how a team of eight people, fully geared, using a hack, all Q'ing together against random people keep screaming, "Oh we are just so masterful. So skillful. Yeah, that's it." Skill has ****nothing to do with anything when all eight people on the other team are cheating.

 

You're assuming everyone is hacking who premades and synching (assuming thats what you mean by a team of 8) queues when in reality anyone can including pugs. In reality very few people "super queue" and I rarely see anyone hack and when I did it was always a solo player speed hacking.

[Anzel]

they should have skill divisions! Then everything will be equal!

 

1.) They should get rid of the silly Expertise stat. It's stupid and adds no value to the game. It only penalizes PvE players for not participating in PvP and PvP players for not participating in PvE. It creates a partition in the player community where there should be none without any additive value.

 

2.) You should have to queue alone or as a full group.

 

3.) Match making should go across servers.

 

4.) Match making should consider level, gear, stats, class/AC, win/loss%, total kills, and valor rank

 

5.) Bolster should be scrapped. It was a terrible idea which they implemented in a terrible way and then proceeded to offer broken patch after broken design after broken patch as a solution. People still "Bolster Bug" to this day.

 

6.) They need to remove "Ranked" gear.

 

7.) They should have more incentive to participate in open world PvP so that we don't have the same sooper l33t d00ds killing each other over and over and over again with their macros on the same damn maps over and over again. How about give us a reason to visit the rest of the Galaxy again after level 55? (See "Remove Ranked Gear" above)

 

8.) How about after they REMOVE EXPERTISE (see above) we combine the PvE concept of Operations with the PvP concept of WarZones and have competing teams of (well matched) players trying to completed the objectives. Enough of this capture the flag and race from node to node crap. I mean really.

 

9.) They should completely REMOVE the cost to extract mods for subscribers so we can spend our credits elsewhere.

 

10.) Finally... an exception report should automatically be generated every time one team ends up with an average of 4 kills and the other team ends up with an average of 40. You know just so they can look into how masterful and skillful the one team was and just how bad the other team was. Or maybe revisit their match making strategy.

[Zunayson]

1.) They should get rid of the silly Expertise stat. It's stupid and adds no value to the game. It only penalizes PvE players for not participating in PvP and PvP players for not participating in PvE. It creates a partition in the player community where there should be none without any additive value.

 

2.) You should have to queue alone or as a full group.

 

3.) Match making should go across servers.

 

4.) Match making should consider level, gear, stats, class/AC, win/loss%, total kills, and valor rank

 

5.) Bolster should be scrapped. It was a terrible idea which they implemented in a terrible way and then proceeded to offer broken patch after broken design after broken patch as a solution. People still "Bolster Bug" to this day.

 

6.) They need to remove "Ranked" gear.

 

7.) They should have more incentive to participate in open world PvP so that we don't have the same sooper l33t d00ds killing each other over and over and over again with their macros on the same damn maps over and over again. How about give us a reason to visit the rest of the Galaxy again after level 55? (See "Remove Ranked Gear" above)

 

8.) How about after they REMOVE EXPERTISE (see above) we combine the PvE concept of Operations with the PvP concept of WarZones and have competing teams of (well matched) players trying to completed the objectives. Enough of this capture the flag and race from node to node crap. I mean really.

 

9.) They should completely REMOVE the cost to extract mods for subscribers so we can spend our credits elsewhere.

 

10.) Finally... an exception report should automatically be generated every time one team ends up with an average of 4 kills and the other team ends up with an average of 40. You know just so they can look into how masterful and skillful the one team was and just how bad the other team was. Or maybe revisit their match making strategy.

 

if I'm in the top 90% of pvp then I expect to win 90% of the time and not be paired each time with people my level so I can feel "normal"

 

Vice versa goes for exceptionally bad bads.

 

 

Damn socialism.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Zunayson

[Anzel]

You're assuming everyone is hacking who premades and synching (assuming thats what you mean by a team of 8) queues when in reality anyone can including pugs. In reality very few people "super queue" and I rarely see anyone hack and when I did it was always a solo player speed hacking.

 

When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

 

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

 

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

 

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...

[Anzel]

if I'm in the top 90% of pvp then I expect to win 90% of the time and not be paired each time with people my level so I can feel "normal"

 

Vice versa goes for exceptionally bad bads.

 

 

Damn socialism.

 

This isn't a political or theological activity. It's a simple competition. Not even a real one. It's a video game. So should the Denver Broncos play Michigan State this weekend? Payton Manning is in the top 90% of all quarterbacks ever. Why should he have to play other top level quaterbacks? I mean really...

[Zunayson]

When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

 

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

 

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

 

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...

 

If you only fight people your skill, nobody is skillful.

 

This is the same reason you don't give out money to poor people to make them rich - nobody is rich.

 

Last match where it was a complete disaster for the other team was simply the fact that 6 of us were stealthers. So, we just focused each enemy 1 by 1. I didn't get but one discharge in per person D:

 

This isn't a political or theological activity. It's a simple competition. Not even a real one. It's a video game. So should the Denver Broncos play Michigan State this weekend? Payton Manning is in the top 90% of all quarterbacks ever. Why should he have to play other top level quaterbacks? I mean really...

 

I live in Jacksonville. So naturally, I like to make this pretty basic analogy - The Jaguars (Very bad if you didn't know) every year play the best NFL teams like the Patriots and formerly the Colts.

 

Of course nobody expects Jacksonville to win, but they play and don't whine. While college and professional have large weight differences, the reason they don't play together is because football, like every other form of competition, measures a set of skills. In football, we can list a tentative draft of these skills:

• Speed
  
• Strength
  
• Agility
  
• Teamwork
  
• Experience
  

 

All other sorts of factors must stay the SAME - as you said, for skill to matter.

• Weight
  
• Number of players on each time
  
• Number of time outs
  
• (other mechanical things that are the same on both sides)
  

 

However, the NFL does not dissolve the constantly best teams and give players to the constantly worse teams (looking at you, Jaguars). So, making "skill brackets" is bad competitive design, and making "other factor brackets" is good.

 

In TOR, we can make this tentative list of factors of SKILL

• Reflexes
  
• Experience
  
• Map knowledge
  
• Teamwork
  
• Class knowledge
  
• LoS/CC/Coordination/whatever
  

 

All other factors must STAY THE SAME (Thus, things like brackets, bolster, etc.)

• Level (Brackets and bolster)
  
• Ability ranks (Boslter allegedly fixes this)
  
• Skill points (I wish they tried to equalize them)
  
• Number of people on each team
  
• Voice chat - technically against the ToS but nobody really cares. And indeed, it *is* not fair that one team gets it and one team does not, but meh.
  

 

That means that we make brackets based on the SECOND LIST, not the FIRST.

 

Just like the NFL does not make skill brackets, TOR should NOT make brackets for the unskilled and skilled, but rather brackets for the undergeared and BiS - lower and higher levels

Edited December 10, 2013 by Zunayson

[cycao]

When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

 

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

 

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

 

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...

 

There is no matchmaking for regs which is part of the problem.

 

First, stop bringing up sports. I get that there can be a comparison but in this game you cannot compare anything to them since that is assuming that both teams are on the same skill plain. When in reality the skill gap is enormous in this game. When you see a team with an average of 50ish kills compared to the other team averaging 15 it means that either one team had healers and the other didn't (which I will agree can be huge) or one team was just flat out better than the other.

[Jorojus]

When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

 

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

 

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

 

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...

 

So this entire discussion is pointless, everyone knows that matchmaking / lack of cross server is the real problem, even Bioware. They just don't seem to be able to do anything about it or they would have done it already.

 

Or they just don't care.

 

6,443 replies 230,073 views (even tough half of the people posting here don' have a clue what they are talking about if I may be so bold)

 

Still no developer response, topic has 4 stars other topics have none. Says enough doesn't it ?

Edited December 10, 2013 by Jorojus

[Brimmer]

Well when you know someone who has been raped and someone uses it in any analogy it sickens me. .

 

I fail to see why we should care? Rape = bad. Anyone can tell you that. However this is a discussion. His choice of words may be inappropriate, but it is a valid comparison. If you don't like what people say /ignore them. We're not here to hold your hand. The world is already censored enough.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Brimmer

[Anzel]

If you only fight people your skill, nobody is skillful.

 

I would invite you to watch Superbowl 43. One of the most competitive games I've ever seen. Big Ben versus an aging Kurt Warner. Awesome game. Wanna see two "fairly matched" teams display skill? Watch that game. I can point you to an endless list of other such examples.

 

This is the same reason you don't give out money to poor people to make them rich - nobody is rich.

 

I'm not sure how that fits in with the spirit of fair competition. But yes, I agree.

[Anzel]

There is no matchmaking for regs which is part of the problem.

 

First, stop bringing up sports. I get that there can be a comparison but in this game you cannot compare anything to them since that is assuming that both teams are on the same skill plain. When in reality the skill gap is enormous in this game. When you see a team with an average of 50ish kills compared to the other team averaging 15 it means that either one team had healers and the other didn't (which I will agree can be huge) or one team was just flat out better than the other.

 

OK, I get that sports references are lost in a forum like this but those are the most established cases where bracketing people fairly has been proven to work.

 

I don't think people have a problem when they lose as much as they have a problem losing 10x in a row where there is a 10:1 (or greater) disparity in kills. There's no EZ way to account for that and chalk it up to "skill".

[Zunayson]

I'm not sure how that fits in with the spirit of fair competition. But yes, I agree.

 

Rather, a crude analogy. If I'm rich in skill and everyone else is poor in skill, and we give everyone else handicaps to help them perform (isomorphic to cheating, as one person gets an extra-skill advantage over another), then I am no longer rich, and others are no longer poor.

 

In the real world, one could argue that giving money out helps people so its okay.

 

In a competition, essentially letting bads cheat because they're bad is bad competitive design.

 

I'll say it again since you're quick to respond and slow to read: I'm not saying everyone cheats, nor am I saying they should. I'm saying that handicapping the skill is bad. Handicapping the unskilled is also bad. No handicaps.

 

There's no EZ way to account for that and chalk it up to "skill".

 

You must not understand PvP a lot. You say yourself that you're not very good, which makes any and all arguments you make about skill in this game null. I'm not the best around, but I'm easily twice good as the average pug (that is, on my super overpowered toon, I can fully carry two pugs).

 

From watching others play it amazing me how bad they are, but it generally goes down to knowing the rotation. Just three of me on a team would obliterate the average pug team. This is because three people with teamwork are massively stronger than just three times the individual.

 

INB4 voicechat excuse, 90% of all communication required to dominate a pug is in game, and not even in ops chat. the remaining 5% is in ops chat. Sure, with voice chat it'd be laughably pathetic, but you don't need voice chat to dominate a pug. 8 players with a brain and a powerful, well played class can focus fire, CC, play objectives, and pretty much just obliterate a team simply by situational awareness. See poster below for specific details.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Zunayson

[cashogy_reborn]

I Solo queue in regs the majority of the time. I get outdamaged by someone else in maybe 1 out of 10 warzones. I am almost always in the top 3 kills. I play smart, use my CCs to complete objectives rather than as part of my basic rotation, and I support teammates with off-heals and peels.

 

But Im not talking to anyone. I dont know anyone else in the group (usually, occasionally I get into a match with someone I know so I have a better idea of what they will do). I am coming into the WZ with the same disadvantages as the other PUG players.

 

99% of this game is understanding fundamentals and anticipating your team mates and opponents actions based on those fundamentals. The majority of players lack that understanding, which is the root of this problem. There is nothing Bioware can do to make players smarter, spend more time (read: any time) reading about how to even begin to approach maximizing their class's potential, or how to use their class's strengths to expose their opponents weaknesses.

 

Premade or otherwise. Bad players are gonna get stomped by good players. Take some personal responsibility if youre getting crushed often, and up your game. Modify the variable that you can control; dont complain about the ones that are totally out of your hands.

[Jadescythe]

I also have videos of Renato Tavares who is 5'2" 140lbs and over 40 years old consistently submitting people half his age and twice his size. Does that mean we should do away with age and weight divisions in MMA and BJJ and Boxing and Judo?

 

RENATO TAVARES

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/renato-tavares

 

Wait, so your argument is because some people are bad, grouping shouldn't be allowed? Or are you saying Reanto Tavares was hacking/cheating? Possibly both? Do you even really have an argument at all?

[Jorojus]

I Solo queue in regs the majority of the time. I get outdamaged by someone else in maybe 1 out of 10 warzones. I am almost always in the top 3 kills. I play smart, use my CCs to complete objectives rather than as part of my basic rotation, and I support teammates with off-heals and peels.

 

But Im not talking to anyone. I dont know anyone else in the group (usually, occasionally I get into a match with someone I know so I have a better idea of what they will do). I am coming into the WZ with the same disadvantages as the other PUG players.

 

99% of this game is understanding fundamentals and anticipating your team mates and opponents actions based on those fundamentals. The majority of players lack that understanding, which is the root of this problem. There is nothing Bioware can do to make players smarter, spend more time (read: any time) reading about how to even begin to approach maximizing their class's potential, or how to use their class's strengths to expose their opponents weaknesses.

 

Premade or otherwise. Bad players are gonna get stomped by good players. Take some personal responsibility if youre getting crushed often, and up your game. Modify the variable that you can control; dont complain about the ones that are totally out of your hands.

 

That might be because you are an exceptional good player wich makes 10 procent of the player base.(otherwise you wouldn't be so much top in the stats right ?)

 

Your are just a bit shortminded and only think about your own situation. The other 90 procents aren't like you, so they will stop playing earlier simply because of the system PVP has atm. (You are the one calling me a "not so smart person" right ? )

 

The system as it is now is bad for the future of the PVP in this game, I think everyone who thinks a little bit logically agrees with that.

 

With a better matchmaking system and cross server PVP could shine alot more, but then again more replies, still no response from a developer ...

Edited December 10, 2013 by Jorojus

[Zunayson]

That might be because you are an exceptional good player wich makes 10 procent of the player base.(otherwise you wouldn't be so much top in the stats right ?)

 

Your are just a bit shortminded and only think about your own situation. The other 90 procents aren't like you, so they will stop playing earlier simply because of the system PVP has atm. (You are the one calling me a "not so smart person" right ? )

 

The system as it is now is bad for the future of the game, I think everyone who thinks a little bit logically agrees with that.

 

On one hand, the below average will quit. On the other hand, the above average will quit if you cater to bads. If average is defined as the median of skill, below and above average are equally 50% of the population.

 

In the real world, you don't pay McDonald's workers the same as electrical engineers just because you don't want the stupid 90% to kill themselves.

[cycao]

I fail to see why we should care? Rape = bad. Anyone can tell you that. However this is a discussion. His choice of words may be inappropriate, but it is a valid comparison. If you don't like what people say /ignore them. We're not here to hold your hand. The world is already censored enough.

 

I'm not asking to have my hand held. When someone relates what some would consider one of the worst acts another person could possibly do to another outside for killing them to a freaking video game it's pathetic.

 

 

Just admit that you suck at this game but don't compare yourself losing to being raped. Admit you are bad. The problem with MMO's or any video game in general is that too many players think they're better than they really are.

[Jorojus]

On one hand, the below average will quit. On the other hand, the above average will quit if you cater to bads. If average is defined as the median of skill, below and above average are equally 50% of the population.

 

In the real world, you don't pay McDonald's workers the same as electrical engineers just because you don't want the stupid 90% to kill themselves.

 

The definition "catering to bads" is a view of a shortminded leet player. Improving the matchmaking system makes the PVP more fun and competitive for all players involved.

 

Besides that, the real world aint exactly perfect is it ? Were talking about a game here wich is alot easier to improve then improving the world.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Jorojus

[anwg]

Hang on, lemme fetch my big clown red nose and enormous shoes.

 

The analogy only keeps being brought up because there are some similarities. Those conquered have no real chance to fight off their attackers because they went into it planning on having an unfair advantage in order to exploit that differential.

 

Usually the conquered don't get a choice...

[sphyg]

There is no matchmaking for regs which is part of the problem.

 

First, stop bringing up sports. I get that there can be a comparison but in this game you cannot compare anything to them since that is assuming that both teams are on the same skill plain. When in reality the skill gap is enormous in this game. When you see a team with an average of 50ish kills compared to the other team averaging 15 it means that either one team had healers and the other didn't (which I will agree can be huge) or one team was just flat out better than the other.

 

There is matchmaking in regs. Talked to Devs in person about this. It first try to pair pre made vs pre made. They also have a metric similar to rating which try to pair within certain ranges.

 

The longer you are in que, the more relaxed these rules get. Meaning that as you wait for a queue pop, every so often it expands the ratings That it is trying to pair you with. The problem is population. This doesn't work correctly most of the tone because not enough queues.

 

But there isa matchmaking system for regs similar to ranked.