Can we, as a community, eliminate the "Grass" and "Snow" in Alderaan?

[Vedano]

Because east and west change?

 

If you play sith, do you go by east and west by the map, or east and west by their relative position? Cause if you go by relative position their west is republics east, and vice versa. And you say because east and west change? So does grass and snow change? Someone could make a mistake on east and west just as easily as making a mistake on grass or snow. Get over it, we're not going to stop using it. All you do is give us a reason to tell you why you're opinion is flawed.

[YanksfanJP]

Good call

 

I think a lot of the debate here is because MOST players PVP on just 1 faction and don't realize that (on Voidstar and Civil War at least) the map is flipped the other way up for the other faction, so the "natural" "North = Up, so West = Left and East = Right" doesn't apply everywhere.

 

I haven't yet done any PVP on the PTS this test cycle, so I haven't experienced a same-side Civil War game to see if that map is flipped, can anyone confirm/deny?

 

 

rotate the map 90 desgrees in alderaan - fixed (spawns coming out from left and right make this issue go away because north is up and south is down no matter where you spawn)

 

color each of the three sets of the doors blue and orange in voidstar (on the map and minimap as well) - fixed

[Sock_Bramson]

You can tell by looking at which spawn you are facing. It's not hard. You guys are trying to make it much harder than it is which is why it works for PUGs... because it isn't hard.

 

I.E. Knowing if you're facing north or south, i.e. knowing which way east/west is.

 

If you can't see grass or snow but know which way to go, it's because you equate them with west and east.

 

There is nothing hard about east/west. West is on the left of the minimap, east is on the right. How is that complicated? The same people who can't tell their east from west may very well confuse their left/right, waste time running to grass before they realize they need to be at snow, or make all the wonderful little WZ blunders that lose games (inappropriate CC, breaking mezes, using their CC breaks poorly, not watching nodes, etc. etc.)

 

If we want poor players to play better, we give them advice and hope that they listen to it. Why wouldn't we expect them to learn how to read their minimap and run east/west when needed, since they need to do so in all 3 node-based WZs?

 

Don't try to blame poor play on calling east/west, because that's not the problem. For everyone who plays competently, though, a universal system is still more helpful than some people calling grass while others call west. Standardize that ish and it'll be easier to teach newer players what to do in PvP.

 

-Hedley Melange <Dynamic>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[YanksfanJP]

If you play sith, do you go by east and west by the map, or east and west by their relative position? Cause if you go by relative position their west is republics east, and vice versa.

 

East and West are never relative to spawn point. Ever.

[YanksfanJP]

If you own one turret and somebody calls Inc, they mean the one you own.

 

If you own one turret and you're fighting in mid trying to take it and hear INC SNOW, how do you know which direction is snow since you can't actually see the snow while you're fighting at the turret for mid?

 

If you own two turrets and the one you are at is fine, and someone calls Inc, they mean the other one.

 

If you are guarding mid and hear INC SNOW, how do you know which direction is snow since you can't actually see the snow while you're fighting at the turret for mid? It's easy to say "go to the other one you own" but that's not the problem - the problem is figuring out which direction that other one is since you can't actually see the snow.

 

THAT'S the only reason grass/snow is a problem - because you can't tell which is snow and which is grass if you're at the middle.

Edited June 21, 2012 by YanksfanJP

[Kentontudor]

If you own one turret and somebody calls Inc, they mean the one you own.

 

If you own two turrets and the one you are at is fine, and someone calls Inc, they mean the other one.

 

If you own two turrets and you are at the enemy turret, and someone calls inc, well, what were you doing trying to Rambo a 3 cap?

 

 

/thread

[Sock_Bramson]

A quick addendum:

 

Everyone who likes to use grass/snow, are you saying that you get confused by east/west? You say that grass/snow is easier to use when you know the map, but why?

 

Really, it's because you subconsciously equate snow/grass with east/west. So when you say you always know where grass/east are, you always know where east/west is. As someone who likes grass/snow admitted, east/west is more helpful for new player. Why the hell don't you use it for their sake, then?

 

Also, no one has refuted my claim that east/west is useful in any situation. (probably because it's a fact)

Even the most experienced player can get momentarily turned around in the heat of battle, but all it takes is a quick look at the minimap to orient yourself again. Everyone who likes snow/grass, honestly consider this: if you lose track of where you are while running around mid, how do you orient yourself? If your answer is to run all the way to one side to look for snow or grass, then you are only proving that snow/grass isn't the best way to call. And, if your answer is that you glance at your minimap, you've also helped prove that east/west is the better system.

 

Well, so much for the "quick" addendum, but there you go.

 

-Hedley Melange <Dynamic>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[Aaroneus]

I don't know which civil war you've been playing, but east is nothing but snow. there is no grass at east. Here is a screenshot:

 

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=swtor+alderaan+civil+war&um=1&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enCA489CA489&biw=1440&bih=688&tbm=isch&tbnid=qjoydDzDu_UeeM:&imgrefurl=http://torwars.com/2012/05/31/inquisitor-weekly-alderaan-strategem/&docid=DhKik44eeVNazM&imgurl=http://torwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/alderaa2n.jpg&w=484&h=452&ei=0f_hT-3cGuKL2AWYjfndCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=178&vpy=287&dur=1592&hovh=217&hovw=232&tx=151&ty=117&sig=113203410329612764965&page=2&tbnh=154&tbnw=151&start=18&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:18,i:166

 

There is a little bit of snow at west, but it is primarly surrounded by grass. Here is a screenshot:

 

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=swtor+alderaan+civil+war&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enCA489CA489&biw=1440&bih=688&tbm=isch&tbnid=0Qnrz98eW3G_qM:&imgrefurl=http://video.alienwarearena.com/movie/2854&docid=uYFmXbT-hr3snM&imgurl=http://video.alienwarearena.com/screenshots/view/15825.jpg&w=1920&h=1080&ei=kwDiT52fA4qQ2AXkno3PCw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=755&vpy=90&dur=733&hovh=168&hovw=300&tx=120&ty=99&sig=113203410329612764965&page=2&tbnh=105&tbnw=186&start=18&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:18,i:139

 

West = grass, East = snow. I hope this clears up any confusion. I personally have no preference on what people say, as long as they say how many enemies are incoming.

 

For those of you that for some unbeknownst reason still think that there is grass and snow on both sides, let me repost the screenshots that i posted on page one of this thread and *hopefully* this confusion will end. Note: yes, there is a little bit of snow on the grassy side, but look immediately around the node platform and you will see straight up grass. East however, is completely snow. There is no grass at east.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Aaroneus

[Synxos]

If your answer is to run all the way to one side to look for snow or grass, then you are only proving that snow/grass isn't the best way to call. And, if your answer is that you glance at your minimap, you've also helped prove that east/west is the better system.

neither. I always know which way snow/grass is. I don't need to glance at the minimap, and I sure as heck don't need to run to a side to actually look.

I guess I have good situational awareness, because I can be in a super long fight, and I never get confused about where I am and which direction is which.

 

And the whole argument that west/east is better because you can look at the minimap....really? you have to look at the minimap to figure out which way to go?

Someone says west I know which way to go without looking at the minimap. If someone says grass I know which way to go without looking at the minimap.

 

People complaining about what other people call it, need to learn to play.

[Aaroneus]

If you own one turret and you're fighting in mid trying to take it and hear INC SNOW, how do you know which direction is snow since you can't actually see the snow while you're fighting at the turret for mid?

 

 

 

If you are guarding mid and hear INC SNOW, how do you know which direction is snow since you can't actually see the snow while you're fighting at the turret for mid? It's easy to say "go to the other one you own" but that's not the problem - the problem is figuring out which direction that other one is since you can't actually see the snow.

 

THAT'S the only reason grass/snow is a problem - because you can't tell which is snow and which is grass if you're at the middle.

 

Yes you can. Snow is east. Grass is west. You're welcome.

[Sock_Bramson]

Lol, no, I don't have a problem knowing where to go. I also have situational awareness; I'm usually heading to our other node before the call comes because I pay attention to the other team's movements. My whole argument for east/west is based on what would be most helpful to the community at large in every situation in every WZ.

 

While personal attacks are entertaining and all, they don't refute any of my arguments. My apologies if I momentarily forget which way I'm facing; I'm a healing sorc and kite/LoS all over the damn place so I can keep healing my teammates to victory. How dare I waste a valuable millisecond to glance at the minimap. (for shame!) I should probably just ignore it; it's not like I can see where my teammates and the enemies are on it.

 

Are you honestly saying that you never use your minimap at all? It's pretty damn helpful for watching the flow of battle.

 

As far as the post under you goes (A-something's):

Like myself and others have said, the very fact that you equate snow/grass with east/west shows that there really isn't any need to use snow/grass. When people say they know a given map, they inherently know how things are oriented based on the cardinal directions. So, why not use the cardinal directions?

 

-Hedley Melange <Dynamic>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[kitsinni]

If you don't know which is snow and which is grass you are paying so little attention you are destroying your teams chances. When you start you can either jump off to one side or go mid then turn right or stay mid. It literally takes one glance when you start and you should have the entire field figured out. When you are at that platform you can see the side it is either covered in snow or it isn't . If you are at middle you can run up the ramp at either side and see the entire playfield is covered in snow or it isn't.

 

Maybe it is just me but "the field I am standing in or looking at is completely covered with snow" is about the most obvious possible clue. If you need West and East to figure out where to go and you can't memorize which is which at the beginning of the game, please do your faction a favor and reroll to the other side.

 

In the 100's upon 100's of these matches I have been in 95% of everyone calls snow or grass, so we should change it becaue a few "map elitists" don't like the commonly recognized terms?

[Sock_Bramson]

Sigh, why do you assume that I don't know which way grass and snow are just because I think east/west is a better calling system? Why do you assume that I don't understand calling grass/snow? I have said in several posts that I know the system works for many people. My argument has always been that these people know where grass/snow is because they know how the map is oriented; since you use east/west for NC and VS, why wouldn't you use it for CW as well?

 

I don't see how I'm being an "elitist" when my main argument is that east/west is more useful for the community at large in every node-based WZ. I have never said that I have a personal problem with grass/snow, I just think east/west is better for all the reasons I've stated.

 

All the rebuttals I've gotten have been along the lines of "I use grass/snow, it works, so it's better; l2p." I have yet to read any actual counter-points to my argument besides the "visual" aspect of snow/grass, which I have already addressed with my own counter-argument. (i.e. visualization only helps new players when they've already wasted time and people who are familiar with the map don't rely on the visuals; they know where grass/snow is based on the cardinal directions, even if they don't refer to them as east/west)

 

Trying to call me a newb based on how I call directions does nothing for the argument at hand, especially when it's based on nothing; if you haven't played with me, what do you know of my pvp competency? I think other good players will agree that calling for help isn't even particularly needed if you're running with your guildmates. You go where you're needed before there's a problem because you can read the flow of battle. Calls are mainly useful to counter surprise attacks and to help guide random PUGs.

 

-Hedley Melange <Dynamic>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[Zaodon]

You are wrong, because of how the structure is, you can't zoom out enough to see the snow and grass if you're standing next to the turret. You have to randomly pick a side, run up the ramp, and look over the wall and hope you chose wisely.

 

Incorrect. L2P.

 

I have no issues seeing which side is grass or snow from the dead center.

 

In addition, I should mention that I do not have Alzheimer's. Because I don't have Alzheimer's, when the game starts, I know where grass and snow are relative to my landing pad, and I don't forget where I am during the entire match. I do understand that people WITH Alzheimer's might need to use East and West (as usually those cardinal directions are stored in their long term memory, and are unaffected by Alzheimer's), but for the rest of us, we know where grass and snow are at all times because we don't have the memory of a goldfish.

[looneybinjim]

try swapping between both factions often and see how often you screw up with east and west as directions. personally i use left and right as directions in civil war, as left is always the home side and right is always the enemy side. grass and snow also work i guess, though each to thier own. Edited June 21, 2012 by looneybinjim

[Varicite]

Incorrect. L2P.

 

I have no issues seeing which side is grass or snow from the dead center.

 

In addition, I should mention that I do not have Alzheimer's. Because I don't have Alzheimer's, when the game starts, I know where grass and snow are relative to my landing pad, and I don't forget where I am during the entire match. I do understand that people WITH Alzheimer's might need to use East and West (as usually those cardinal directions are stored in their long term memory, and are unaffected by Alzheimer's), but for the rest of us, we know where grass and snow are at all times because we don't have the memory of a goldfish.

 

FPS crowd generally likes to use landmarks.

 

People who deal w/ actual maps a lot like to use east / west.

 

People who don't do either seem to like left / right.

 

Pretty sure it only takes 2-3 matches to learn what people mean when they say it.

[Jakev-]

Look where you are, If someone calls help by saying "Snow!" and you only have 2 nodes, obviously they aren't calling help from where your at (whether your in the middle or at "grass"). If your that confused look at your minimap and go towards the Green Node that you own (Make sure you zoom out your minimap as much as possible so you can see everything)

 

I don't care what you call as long as you call It I can figure it out its not difficult.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Jakev-

[TrenchWar]

lmfao!!! ....17 pages on what to call snow and grass..........wow.....i mean like i thinks its less shocking to wake up and see an alien standing at the foot of my bed eating a bowl of frootloops while texting war plans to ewoks

[kitsinni]

nevermind call it whatever you want Edited June 21, 2012 by kitsinni

[Daiyukie]

Left and right always refers to the directions from spawn.. Not hard to understand. If you're not at spawn, you should know which damn side you went to, so you know which side is opposite to you, don't you?

[Foenixz]

I'll admit, I don't pay attention to that. I don't care which side has grass or snow. In fact, both have snow and both have grass. I say we go off of the already established and universally understood "north, south, east, west" directions. I can't tell you how many games of Alderaan or Voidstar I've played where people say "right" when if their screen is oriented north they are in fact "left". Or people say grass and I have no idea what they are talking about. The minimap is always oriented north, so this makes it the most accurate way to call directions.

 

WoW, I say Snow and Grass 'til I DIE. The side called 'snow' has a lot of snow; the side called 'grass' has less snow, very much less snow. Now that, that is settled we return you to the normal QQing and whining on the PvP forums

 

Edited June 21, 2012 by Foenixz

[Aaroneus]

Look where you are, If someone calls help by saying "Snow!" and you only have 2 nodes, obviously they aren't calling help from where your at (whether your in the middle or at "grass"). If your that confused look at your minimap and go towards the Green Node that you own (Make sure you zoom out your minimap as much as possible so you can see everything)

 

I don't care what you call as long as you call It I can figure it out its not difficult.

 

Thank you, I thought I was the only one who looks at it this way. Process of elimination is the answer for those who are too absent-minded to observe using peripheral vision that their surroundings at the east node are white and their surroundings at the west node are green.

 

And of course, I too couldn't give a crap what people call it, as long as they call it. Because when it comes down to it I can figure out what left/right, grass/snow, east/west is.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Aaroneus

[Sock_Bramson]

Heh, quick edit there, kit.

 

Zao, it seems like you'd have to zoom all the way out to see the sides from the middle, which a.) wouldn't help you if you're still fighting at mid and b.) wouldn't be quicker than glancing at the map. I don't know for sure, though; I like to stay at about 75% zoom or so so I can make out different casts better and interrupt the more important ones.

 

Since server xfers, it doesn't seem like there's a majority for either calling system (half-and-half, I'd say), which is why I think a more consistent method would help newer players (<-- this is my main argument). East/West works for all WZs, which is why I've always used it.

 

Considering that I've mainly been concerned with consistency, it's kind of ironic how inconsistent the pro grass/snow posts have been. Some people claim it's easier and have accused east/west of being elitist, while others said it's more useful only when you know the map well and everyone who doesn't use it should l2p.

 

You can all call whatever you want if you play with me, though; I'll keep healing where needed. Still, I think I've made some very valid points as to why east/west is always a useful distinction, and so far nobody has provided convincing reasons why snow/grass would be objectively better. Any rational counter-arguments would be welcome, but resorting to "l2p because you use a different system" doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

-Hedley Melange <Dynamic>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

[Elboc]

I thought I read they were changing them to have colors in 1.3 anyway? Or was that NC maybe. Idk.

[Jadescythe]

Heh, quick edit there, kit.

 

Zao, it seems like you'd have to zoom all the way out to see the sides from the middle, which a.) wouldn't help you if you're still fighting at mid and b.) wouldn't be quicker than glancing at the map. I don't know for sure, though; I like to stay at about 75% zoom or so so I can make out different casts better and interrupt the more important ones.

 

Since server xfers, it doesn't seem like there's a majority for either calling system (half-and-half, I'd say), which is why I think a more consistent method would help newer players (<-- this is my main argument). East/West works for all WZs, which is why I've always used it.

 

Considering that I've mainly been concerned with consistency, it's kind of ironic how inconsistent the pro grass/snow posts have been. Some people claim it's easier and have accused east/west of being elitist, while others said it's more useful only when you know the map well and everyone who doesn't use it should l2p.

 

You can all call whatever you want if you play with me, though; I'll keep healing where needed. Still, I think I've made some very valid points as to why east/west is always a useful distinction, and so far nobody has provided convincing reasons why snow/grass would be objectively better. Any rational counter-arguments would be welcome, but resorting to "l2p because you use a different system" doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

-Hedley Melange <Dynamic>, Dreshdae-->The Shadowlands-

 

You're only thinking about it from a helper perspecitve. If you have time to help them, you have time to figure out where snow or grass is. If I'm on a node fighting 2-3 people I just look at the ground and call it, not try and figure out if I'm east/west and call the wrong one. As to new players, they probably aren't going to be much help no matter what is called. When I didn't know my way around, I just followed everyone else to the objective anyway.