1.3 Juggernaut Changes

[Dracosz]

You're not reading it right.

 

Read the change to single saber mastery. Its getting changed from 6% more damage across the board to 6% damage ONLY on melee/physical damage (shien form) or ONLY on force damage (shi-cho form). That means 6% lesss force damage on shien and 6% less physical damage on schi-cho, that IS A NERF.

 

Seriously, im struggling to keep up with marauders as it is. If you see dps ranking its marauders all on top. I dont understand why juggernauts need an underhanded nerf like this to their DPS when we're performing as we should (aka behind the pure DPS classes)... and when everyone knows marauders are the ones that are OP.

 

Revert it, seriously.

 

EDIt: Nevermind i just noticed it says melee damage on live servers aswell. Well, if its the same for vengence then im ok with it, but i still dont understand why nerf Rage spec. Its already pretty bad as it is, why make it worse?

It's a buff to rage, actually. A buff to force damage means 6% more damage on crush, smash, push, scream AND choke which are all more important than obliterate and vicious slash. The big thing is that it forces even more damage into force attacks which I find odd considering they want to provide a means to work with other damage.

 

The big nerf is when we go defensive in soresu, we'll actually be dealing 12% less damage in it as vengeance. It also effectively murders soresu-rage as you'll be losing on too much damage, period.

[otherworlder]

Very unfortunate change to SSM for those of us who run mostly Vengeance but use Soresu form to guard a pocket healer. Immortal was never really a great spec for PvP as you sacrificed way too much damage without gaining an awful lot in survivability (most of that comes from tanking pvp gear, if that's your thing).

 

I've always run a mostly Vengeance spec for single target damage and some nice survival / cc-immunity skills (I find Rage way too gimmicky and unreliable, not to mention boring). That said, I always ran my spec in Soresu for increased defense and to guard my wife's healer. The combination was very effective for peeling, protection and single target kills when there weren't any dpsers around to do the job. Now... not so much.

 

With the totally unneeded change to SSM, my workable damage is going to become much less workable, especially with the relic changes. WTH did they feel we need increased threat generation in PvP (or hell, even PvE) in place of damage, which was already struggling a bit even for the dps specs? Was anyone complaining about Jugg damage in Soresu form and I missed it? Hell, was anyone complaining about Jugg damage at all?

 

Do they want tanks/guards to be used in pvp or not? I just don't get it. An immortal jugg running Soresu form in current pvp is little more than a nuisance/tauntbot in anything but Huttball. We need some kind of damage to keep persistent dpsers off our healers----not to mention allowing us to defend ourselves.

 

Sheesh, first merc and now this. I'm not exactly regretting the imminent loss of my sub.

[Vid-szhite]

You're not reading it right.

 

Read the change to single saber mastery. Its getting changed from 6% more damage across the board to 6% damage ONLY on melee/physical damage (shien form) or ONLY on force damage (shi-cho form). That means 6% lesss force damage on shien and 6% less physical damage on schi-cho, that IS A NERF.

 

Actually...

 

EDIt: Nevermind i just noticed it says melee damage on live servers aswell. Well, if its the same for vengence then im ok with it, but i still dont understand why nerf Rage spec. Its already pretty bad as it is, why make it worse?

 

Well, you could call it a buff to Rage, if not breaking exactly even, since Rage only really cares about Force damage.

[Darth_Victus]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=463539

 

Love the changes. What are your thoughts?

 

I am fine with the changes up until the damage reduction.

 

We already do crap for damage, already are the lowest DPS of the 3 tank classes and with the change we are being brought down even lower.

[Sookster]

Immortal's dps was atrocious to begin with, I had a great spec pre 1.2, came 1.2 I had to put 1 point into quake to be able to move up the tree (quake is so useless), and in 1.3 I would have to pick up single saber mastery to be viable in tanking which messes up my 31/2/8 spec, why would you take single saber mastery as tank on live? Anyways, my jugg is vengeance spec, I went back to tanking with it last week and realized how inferior it is compared to my assassin in tank spec, and vengeance doesn't really compare to my assassin dps spec either. Both Columi/Rakata and Battlemaster geared.

 

My jugg was my first 50 and my main, now it's gathering dust.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Sookster

[unbreak_able]

Immortal's dps was atrocious to begin with, I had a great spec pre 1.2, came 1.2 I had to put 1 point into quake to be able to move up the tree (quake is so useless), and in 1.3 I would have to pick up single saber mastery to be viable in tanking which messes up my 31/2/8 spec, why would you take single saber mastery as tank on live? Anyways, my jugg is vengeance spec, I went back to tanking with it last week and realized how inferior it is compared to my assassin in tank spec, and vengeance doesn't really compare to my assassin dps spec either. Both Columi/Rakata and Battlemaster geared.

 

My jugg was my first 50 and my main, now it's gathering dust.

 

Are there any viable jugg builds now? The changes seems to stop people from DPSing while in Soresu form, but they have crippled the few remaining pure Immortal Tanks.

[unbreak_able]

Also consider the fact that we're losing Unleash...no more CC break for us :mad:

[Crimson_Paladin]

So does this mean Intimidate will only reduce rage requirement for Chilling Scream? Seems a bit underwhelming to me.

[BanetheDarkLord]

So does this mean Intimidate will only reduce rage requirement for Chilling Scream? Seems a bit underwhelming to me.

 

^ This ^

 

A good question because even though Chilling Scream being free is nice, its not worth alone 2 points in the Immortal tree.

[Teioh_White]

Bad for Jugg Op tanking, but should help out in running Flash Points. While bad for the class, overall fine for me, as helping friends out in FP's only time I ever tank on my Jugg, real tanking has been left to my PT for months now. (Though they are getting a decent dmg nerf as well)

 

Veng looks untouched, and it does great in PvP and capable enough in Ops, so i'm thankful for that, at least. They could've made Shien stance only weapon damage or something, but at least they didn't hate on it that far.

[coldserpent]

Something I was reading regarding the notes for Crushing Blow, and this caught my attention in a big way:

 

Crushing Blow has been "slightly" altered. The ability still applies 3 stacks of armor reduction. Damage dealt by this ability has been reduced, but when the target is affected by 5 stacks of armor reduction, Crushing Blow now deals damage to up to 2 nearby enemies, spreading 3 stacks of armor reduction to those enemies and knocking down Standard and Weak targets. It does not deal damage to sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies, and continues to generate a high amount of additional threat.

 

So basically, no hitting someone with either the "Fire and forget" Force Choke, or Backhand, then following up by belting them w/ Crushing Blow? And that's not counting all the crowd control thrown around in the warzones either.

[Traestus]

Something I was reading regarding the notes for Crushing Blow, and this caught my attention in a big way:

 

Crushing Blow has been "slightly" altered. The ability still applies 3 stacks of armor reduction. Damage dealt by this ability has been reduced, but when the target is affected by 5 stacks of armor reduction, Crushing Blow now deals damage to up to 2 nearby enemies, spreading 3 stacks of armor reduction to those enemies and knocking down Standard and Weak targets. It does not deal damage to sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies, and continues to generate a high amount of additional threat.

 

So basically, no hitting someone with either the "Fire and forget" Force Choke, or Backhand, then following up by belting them w/ Crushing Blow? And that's not counting all the crowd control thrown around in the warzones either.

 

I'm sure if you directly target them Crushing Blow will hit, what I believe the notes are sying si that if you're fighting 2 people and you use Intimidating Roar on both, it won't hit the one you're not targeting and break it early. It will still hit Force Choked/Backhanded targets because they are stunned which is different from sleep/mez.

[coldserpent]

I'm sure if you directly target them Crushing Blow will hit, what I believe the notes are sying si that if you're fighting 2 people and you use Intimidating Roar on both, it won't hit the one you're not targeting and break it early. It will still hit Force Choked/Backhanded targets because they are stunned which is different from sleep/mez.

 

Stunned does count as incapacitated though. I guess I'll have to wait until 1.3 to see how it goes. If it doesn't fire off against incapacitated, lifted, or sleeping targets with the primary attack, that's not going to be good. Maybe Bioware should've said that the splash attacks don't fire on secondary targets to clear things up.

[Veeius]

It was 3 rage to use, now it's free...unless it was reduced by more than 20-25% this should not be an issue. Can anyone on the PTS please give us some numbers to compare before/after?

 

Unless they change the threat modifier, this will be a useless move on mobs/bosses that aren't stunnable (read as - any mob that is an actual threat). Forget about the pvp implications (which are quite dire), it wrecks the move for pve.

[Veeius]

It's a buff to rage, actually. A buff to force damage means 6% more damage on crush, smash, push, scream AND choke which are all more important than obliterate and vicious slash. The big thing is that it forces even more damage into force attacks which I find odd considering they want to provide a means to work with other damage.

 

The big nerf is when we go defensive in soresu, we'll actually be dealing 12% less damage in it as vengeance. It also effectively murders soresu-rage as you'll be losing on too much damage, period.

 

No, it's a massive, game destroying nerf. I'm honestly astonished that you don't get that. Being unable to use adrenals or relics means that our spike damage won't hit that hard. And a 6% addition to nearly nothing is still nearly nothing, because our damage OUTSIDE smash+scream is VERY VERY VERY VERY low.

 

Honestly, it's bad enough that they're destroying smart game play by making us kittens when we're in soresu (hey, welcome back to sword & board warriors in wow!), but even when we're in Shii-choo, our smash damage will go through the floor without adrenals AND relics shoving them up. Seriously, just look at the math. Rage will not be viable if there are no further changes, not for pve, not for pvp.

[VexedLucifer]

Also consider the fact that we're losing Unleash...no more CC break for us :mad:

 

Where is that in the patch notes exactly?

[GalenMourne]

Where is that in the patch notes exactly?

 

Its not. We are only loosing the cooldown reduction talent. While the changes for pvp kinda suck, for pve immortal has only gotten better at its job. A simple fix is just remove the threat component on crushing blow and add that threat back as damage. While dps will still be low, it wont be as bad and will keep us with hard hitting move. And they can similarly remove or lower the threat component of backhand and add more damage back to it.

[MouldyCrow]

I dunno what you rage juggers are complaining about with the relic nerf. You went from a +400 for 15 seconds relic for a small burst to:

 

Assuming you are already in orange Augmented War Hero gear you are gaining:

2x warhero relics that have a passive +113 power and then:

Augmentable:

-relics x2

-implants x2

-offhand

-earpiece

-belt

-bracers

 

Assume +18 power overkill augments, you are losing your activated +400 power to gain 370 passive power. And you can still craft your warzone adrenal if you want to.

Edited June 17, 2012 by MouldyCrow

[kwakkwak]

why do i keep reading that the SSM talent change is a nerf to veng? the talent only gives a a damg bonus to melee attacks as is. meaning you will not lose any damg to smash or scream. it only effects our white damg hits(and shatter's up front hit) as is. so its a buff for rage and it breaks even for veng.

[Sith-lord]

Wow. I have to say I'm pretty shocked that there are people who actually like these changes. The only way I can believe anyone who plays a jugg can actually like these changes is if they do nothing but PvE, and get carried by great dps in whatever PvE stuff they participate in.

 

In case some folks don't realize it: Juggs damage sucks. It's arguably the worst of ALL TANKS in the ENTIRE game. The other tanks are getting the same buff to threat. Juggs damage is being severely nerfed with the 1.3 changes. Read the patch notes for crying out loud! lol I also suggest those that "love" these AWFUL changes read the threads in the test center section of these forums, and take a good look at the testing people do. Then come back and say how wonderful 1.3 is for the guardian/jugg AC...

 

I'm almost in real, actual, shock people like these changes. lol

 

EDIT- Here are links to the threads I'm talking about. Now you folks who "love" these changes don't even have to look for the threads.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=476530

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=473575

Edited June 17, 2012 by Sith-lord

[Elyx]

Wow. I have to say I'm pretty shocked that there are people who actually like these changes. The only way I can believe anyone who plays a jugg can actually like these changes is if they do nothing but PvE, and get carried by great dps in whatever PvE stuff they participate in.

 

In case some folks don't realize it: Juggs damage sucks. It's arguably the worst of ALL TANKS in the ENTIRE game. The other tanks are getting the same buff to threat. Juggs damage is being severely nerfed with the 1.3 changes. Read the patch notes for crying out loud! lol I also suggest those that "love" these AWFUL changes read the threads in the test center section of these forums, and take a good look at the testing people do. Then come back and say how wonderful 1.3 is for the guardian/jugg AC...

 

I'm almost in real, actual, shock people like these changes. lol

 

EDIT- Here are links to the threads I'm talking about. Now you folks who "love" these changes don't even have to look for the threads.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=476530

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=473575

 

I think the people that like the changes are those that are more worried about holding threat on ALL mobs around them, then they are about our measly little 15-30% damage cut. they forget that solo work is still a big part of many tanks, and that little dps loss turns they're 31 pt talent into a skill that is on single targets almost as weak as your basic skill you get at level 1. You could even buff that same skill with a few points in the Rage tree to most likely be better then our amazing 31 pt talent.

 

But hey! it hits 3 targets now! because....you know...we didn't have any abilities that hit 3 targets...

 

...like smash.....

...or like Sweeping Slash....

 

nah. nothing. sure needed those two extra targets. that's gonna make Such a difference!

 

and backhand...I'm soo glad they took of that rage cost. because...you know...with a boss and 2-3 or more trash mobs hitting me ALL THE TIME, I was always low on rage. it even dipped under the cap on occasion! im sure glad backhand is free now...I never cared about it's damage output anyways.

 

But of course, all this is irrelevant. they boosted our threat in Soresu so much we can hold aggro on a dead stick. and with the extra damage mitigation in Soresu, even our Vengeance brethren can flop over to Soresu in an instant and be an effective tank....

 

....with tons more damage then a full immortal...

...hold on, I need to get a few tissues, be right back. it's just allergies, really.

[ACTroyan]

how much is sonic barrier blocking now?

[Anosa]

correct me if im wrong, but didnt they make the immortal tree give us less defensive ability?

[Cthrax]

correct me if im wrong, but didnt they make the immortal tree give us less defensive ability?

 

Not really. They removed 3 percent from blade barricade and moved it into a passive +3 defense under SSM and made blade barricade 12 seconds long. One of the few changes I actually like.

[Rafkin]

love all the changes... we are now on par with PT and Assassin tanks in terms of multy target tanking, where, as you know, we were weak. I've seen great tanks hold back and let their assassin/PT offtanks grab trash because of this... No more!

 

I think its one of those things that looks better on paper. Realistically adds don't live long enough to get 5 stacks and trigger the aoe. It will take 4 global cooldowns to trigger?