Cross quoting myself since we're having the same discussion in two different threads TLDR: Not as bad as I stated early, not great though.

Speaking from a rage perspective Well the new War Hero Relics have a static 113 power on them and you can equip two at once giving you a passive bonus of 226 Power. This is down 179 power from the current War Hero relic when you pop it. Now over a 15 minute warzone assuming you pop your relic as often as possible you'll have roughly 15% uptime on that power bonus. The difference basically comes down to how many 4 stack shockwaves do you get off in other 85% post 1.3. This is something so variable it's really impossible to calculate due to varying circumstances in every warzone. I think with the static power buff being as high as it is, we won't suffer horribly. It's just we get hit harder with the change than most other classes due to the controlled nature of our burst compared to the sustained damage of other classes. We know exactly when our damage is going to spike so we want to take every step to drive that spike even higher. Losing that control hurts a lot compared to other classes who's overall damage is spread out over a greater window in a single confrontation.

Always on compared to On demand is a terrible trade for Rage Juggs, only on hit is worse.

One Soresu form isn't only gaining 3% damage instead of 6%. It's gaining 3% defense only. So it's a 6% melee damage nerf. Second while the rage cost on Backhand/Hilt Strike is being removed, for full immortal spec Jugg/Guardians it was already only 1 rage/focus. So basically you're trading 1 focus for a damage nerf. and on Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow I point you to this post from the PTS It's a pretty serious damage nerf on the 31 point talent on the immortal tree. While I get that tanks aren't supposed to do damage and blah blah blah. If all you can do is tickle someone you basically can only taunt and CC every minute because otherwise you're doing nothing of note. Tanks need damage so they can at least threaten an opponent over time by grinding them down in a somewhat reasonable window otherwise they're simply ignored.

I'm sure if you directly target them Crushing Blow will hit, what I believe the notes are sying si that if you're fighting 2 people and you use Intimidating Roar on both, it won't hit the one you're not targeting and break it early. It will still hit Force Choked/Backhanded targets because they are stunned which is different from sleep/mez.

Well stack that on top of the Backhand Damage nerf and the Crushing Blow nerf which maths out too This was taken from the PTR forums, from a Guardian so the abilities renamed for them I'd say Immortal Damage is pretty nerfed.

What about specs built around massive spike damage? Losing their ability to well...spike massive damage to win a fight, what else do they bring? If I as a Rage Jugg can't spike someone down, I can't win a fight then because any other DPS is going to beat my sustained DPS.

Yeah...but considering the pace BioWare works at we're not seeing a fundamental talent restructuring until at least 1.4 and god knows when that is. Like the giant issue with the adrenal/relic change is it's hitting Concealment Ops/Rage Juggs and whatever their Repub mirrors are the hardest, and I don't think anyone considered them OP. I mean 6% is nice, but there's NO way it's going to offset the loss in burst control. It's like BioWare went. "Well we're going to lop off your arm, but here's a nice walking stick to help you get around." Yeah the walking stick is nice, but we're still missing an arm.

The Relic/Adrenal change is massive for Rage Juggernauts though. We're a controlled burst class, we know exactly when our damage is going to spike. Adrenals and Relics helped us push that burst even higher making us a serious threat. Rage Juggernauts have very little sustained damage, it's basically a guided missile spec. We show up and blow someone up. Everyone sees it happening and it can be difficult to stop. But by basically cutting off a leg of our 1 trick pony, we're now left with a three legged pony that can't do very much. I know it sounds like hyperbole, but the relic change to providing constant stat does nothing for us. Literally the only way it could be worse is if they changed the relic to provide the same bonus as it does now but be a random chance activation on crit. the 6% force damage on SSM is nice...but it doesn't nearly offset the fact that we lost a large portion of our burst which is really all we brought. Basically if we can't pressure nearly as effectively in our window we're useless.

I'll bring cupcakes, we can have a party. I think the healing sorcs/sages will come if we invite them as well

Rage Juggs can go sit on the sidelines with Concealment Ops, we can play pattycake together while Marauders run around murdering everyone

Except unlike Tankassins I don't think anyone was crying about Rage Juggs being OP. Granted that's not a great reason, but still it feels like a kick in the balls to get nerfed when you're balanced.

I'm somewhat scared as a Rage Jugg because of the Adrenal/Relic change. Yeah we did get a 6% force damage increase from SSM, but considering we we're about popping all trinkets to get insane TTK what are we going to do now? Being a controlled burst spec is fun, it's what I enjoy playing. Vengence puts me to sleep, so I'm really glad Rage spec is pretty much the exact opposite too that. However if our TTK is too high we're not going to be able to anything and I'll be forced to respec just to keep up.

Where did it say it was free?

Except they don't give you an idea about who tries? Number of passes can easily be skewed if 2 people work in conjunction simply to get a higher score. Same with minutes Huttball is held. That doesn't even take 2. 1 ******* could run around with the ball for the maximum amount of time before blowing up. His score would be really good then, except he did NOTHING to help you win. The most important stat at the end of the warzone isn't any one person's individual damage, healing, or protection. It's the numbers at the very top. The ones that decide if you won or lost. I do give a crap about others, but I also realize that in no way will I ever get the people that run around 1v1ing in the pit to stop because it's not contributing. Because if they're not smart enough to realize why it's a bad idea in the first place they're certainly not going to be smart enough to listen to reason. There's no way you can make a singular statistic to represent good play because good play is relative to the game you're in. I play Rage Specc Jugg. Under you're system I'd probably have pretty bad scores because I don't pick up the Huttball intentionally most games. I'm fragile and unless I have multiple jumps set up, I'm too slow to make it any kind of meaningful distance. Yes I do pick it up when the correct opportunity presents itself, but waiting around for those means I'm not doing the other things I am good at. There's no way to create a singular statistic that represents good play because there are simply too many variables to take into account in any PvP match. Think about the unsung heroes of any Huttball match, the Operative that manages to stealth his way to the goal edge for easy jumps. Or the sorc who understood how to actually clear a platform with his knockback rather than just sending the runner to the ledge below. Those are great important plays but it's incredibly difficult to come up with some sort of measurable metric for them. However, if you're smart you'll notice them. You'll see the players who game in and game out do the things that are required to win. Then you reach out to them and continue to play with them. And you'll keep winning. And in the end that's the only stat that matters.

I like how your huttball scores are pretty useless for tracking how well someone is doing, as like the current system, they're very easy to inflate without actually contributing to the match. How about you just play the damn game, if you're actually good at it you'll know who's contributing and who's not.

Man I can't imagine what it would be like if we could invade fleets. I remember back in WoW when my horde guild took over stormwind for about 3 hours. We ran back and forth between the bank and the AH killing every player and NPC. No one could use the AH or bank for that time. This was on an RP server too. Still wasn't against the ToS though

4 people on the fleet on Bondar Crystal. Soon I'll have it all to myself!

I...never complained about how this game ran? It runs great, hell I was shocked when it came out how little downtime and server maintenance it required. My server was one of the ones in BC that went down at least once I week. I remember how bad the servers were originally, how you could just stuck sliding around the map for hours on your knees simply because you went too loot a mining node. The issues I have right now are that for an MMO it feels so lifeless. I just want to have a community to play with, the feeling that I'm not some lifeless automaton playing a game but rather a singular character that's part of a larger world. That's what made WoW special the fact that you felt like you part of this grand magical world with it's own denizens. Here it feels like I'm playing with bots.

So I resubscribed to TOR on Wednesday, I had originally pre ordered the game in the summer before launch. I participated in the betas, I was part of the early access. I rushed to 50, it's the way I prefer to play the game. I was the leader of a guild in WoW that achieved multiple server firsts, I was part of a 2k area 3s team. I simply give that information to give a perspective of how I play the game. I enjoy pushing what I can do with my character. For the first part of ToR it was awesome. My Sith Juggernaut ripped through levels, yes it seemed my leveling experience was a bit more difficult than others but honestly I enjoyed the challenge. Forgoing most raiding at the beginning I participated almost entirely in PvP. I loved it aside from the seeming over presence of CC but regardless the PvP was fun and enjoyable and smashing people with my Jugg was a blast. As time passed however, running the same warzones over and over grew less and less fun especially when I didn't have a healer to spam cleanse me. As February was rolling around I was valor rank 53, with a full set of champion gear and my rakata relics. Yet I still walked away. The game neglected to hold my interest and for the time being I was too busy to justify buying more game time. So for months I stepped away until the urge to play a MMO was too great. I love MMOs, I still look back fondly on my time in WoW as I was part of a fantastic guild. So Wednesday rolled around and rather than going back to the soulless shell that is WoW I came back to ToR. I love the setting, I love Star Wars and the PvP was fun. So after I spent Wednesday night re downloading the game, I had to wait until after work on Thursday to actually play. I logged in about 5 PM est on Bondar Crystal a light EST pvp server. When I logged in there were 9 people on the fleet, 73 on the sever overall. Not as bad as some of the doom and gloom stories I read on the forums but still very low. I was pleasently surprised, that after I had reorganized my quickbars, re did my talents, and even trained a new ability, that my PvP queue nearly instantly popped. So I went about playing a few Warzones. And it was FUN. I had fun PvPing it was great getting back into the flow of the game. I wasn't too shocked that my skills hadn't really degraded and it even made me laugh that it was still quite easy for me to 1v2 people. It was a bit depressing to realize it was literally the same 16 people queueing for warzones though with the teams barely swapping one or two people. That didn't stop me though as I continued to queue. Then it happened. In my second game of huttball, I died at some point and quickly hit the rez button. Then after I rezzed I was somehow hit by a knockback attack and I was then stuck on my back. For the rest of the match. I couldn't move. I couldn't get up, I even tried to intercede to my rezzing teammates. I couldn't do anything but helplessly lie in the spawn pit until I was booted from the match due to inactivity. That right there really soured my play session I ended up logging out shortly there after, and ended up going to get dinner. So that was my first night, it was realtively fun but honestly for a TLDR version of my experiences. 1.) The game is fun, there's no denying this. The combat, the classes, the environment they are all great. 2.) I talked to NO ONE in my play session. Hell I didn't see anyone speak at all. No one used general chat, no one used Warzone chat. It was like I was playing with incredibly advanced bots. The game felt really lifeless. 3.) A single bug or glitch really ruined my night. Being stuck lying there in the spawn zone unable to anything until I timed out was incredibly frustrating. I can't help but think if I was on a more populated server I'd be having more fun. I'd have people to talk too, I'd have the chance of finding a guild or running an instance. So what's left? I have to reroll and regrind valor just to enjoy the game? Or do i have to wait until server transfers/mergers are available. It boggles my mind that server transfers needed to be held up because legacy needed to be rolled out first. I've read more on the situation and how the legacy feature in 1.2 sorta broke the server transfer functionality but after spending the 30 seconds looking at my legacy, I can't help but feel that prioritizing that over the sever transfers was a foolish mistake. What good does legacy do me if I'm basically playing this game alone? So...what now? I'll probably log in again tonight, I love the PvP and I love my character. I don't want to reroll onto a server that actually has a population...but is that my only option if I truly want to enjoy the game in any capacity?