Buff Operatives

[Ich_Bin]

I completely agree with the original poster. Rarely do I see any DPS Operatives in my warzones and if I do they pose no real threat. They are just too easy to control. Once they get knocked back/slowed/rooted/whatever they become pretty helpless.

 

And I also agree with the assumption that DPS Ops will not be part of any strong rated WZ team. But we will see that soon enough.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[TonyDragonflame]

There is not most useless class in WZ or Flashpoints, than Scoundrels/Ops.

 

Every other thing every class can do better, than they. Ranged dd, melee dd, controling, healing, stealth... everything.

 

If I enter in WZ and see other Scoundrels, except me, in our team, I sure, what game will be defeated in 95%.

[Aetou]

The irony of this thread is that when people realize they can't win a fight, they want to run away...and now you guys want a gap closer. How much is ever enough for you guys?

 

Everything a DPS Op can do, a DPS Shadow can do better. THAT is the issue that needs resolving. Shadows have so many cool abilities that Scoundrels lack while also having better sustained damage and survivability. Either Shadows are too good, Scoundrels are too bad, or a little of each. 20s Force Speed while also having Stealth and potentially a Pull too... yeah...

[Annex]

This is a great idea. Definitely buff another mdps class.

 

Mdps is totally underpowered and badly needs a buff. Definitely the way to go is to bring all dps up to marauders/juggs and not moderate the other classes damage.

 

PS also sages/sorcs are opd. *** YOU THROW PEBBLES, WHY DO YOU DO 100 INSTEAD OF ONLY 1 DMG?!!!1 *** OMG NERF HAX. If i look at you funny, you should die.

 

Also please give all mdps perma stealth and access to /fly.

[namelless]

Scoundrels really do need some sort of utility to make them viable in huttball, perhaps they should have an ability making them immune to cc for a short period of time, regardless of resolve.

 

Either that or just give them a long moderate sprint, like the sentinel group buff.

 

I'd also reduce the CDs on Shoot First and Backblast, 7.5 seconds is just too long and the energy cost/cd increase to backblast was unnecessary.

Edited May 5, 2012 by namelless

[Dracosz]

IMO here's what the class as a whole needs:

- Movement speed buff with sneak popped.

- Sneak movement speed increase buffed as concealment

- Overload Shot heals based on the amount of damage dealt by corrosive dart

[Xinika]

1. You have stealth.

2. Pick your battles carefully.

3. Problem solved.

 

 

(ps)

 

Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.

So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one?

 

You are incredibly clueless.

[Neoforcer]

Assassins have stealth, a gap closer, a (talented) pull and survivability.

 

Operatives have one of these.

 

all those abilities you talk about are tank op are not tanks there a damage dealer. So let me get you logic you want high damage and tank pulls and survivability. hmm sound logical right that would be way to op for any class op are fine as is

[Seymour]

Buff Operatives

 

Let's have a realistic discussion.

 

I lack an adequately snarky response to this.

[FrankyMcShanky]

You guys do realize that concealment/scrappers have a 15% in combat run speed buff at all times, right?

[MrXen]

1. You have stealth.

2. Pick your battles carefully.

3. Problem solved.

 

 

(ps)

 

Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.

So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one?

 

 

Except every class has a stun or escape, so the stun-and-run basically means the operative in question has to either use a 2 minute cooldown in-combat stealth to eventually catch back up to his target who is probably healing with the class recharge OR he tries it on someone else and rinse/repeat.

[Aetou]

You guys do realize that concealment/scrappers have a 15% in combat run speed buff at all times, right?

 

You realise their Shadow equivalent does too, right? (Plus Force Speed too.) Citing a skill that both Shadows and Scoundrels have as a way to argue that Scoundrels aren't just worse than Shadows is... not so convincing.

[Lexster]

I wouldn't mind operatives having a shadow step to target, but would have to have roughly a 1min cd or so(maybe spec to take it down to 45ish seconds), as they already have a combat stealth(I know this has a long CD as well).

[Migrayn]

At max level with proper itemization the class/build does what the designers want:

 

Heavily front-loaded damage, in other words massive burst during the opener.

 

Change that and the class design changes.

 

Keep that and buff the class and you approach Alpha.

 

---

 

Im sorry but if you think a 3-4k hidden strike is massive burst you have never seen a pyrotech or tbose smash warriors crit. Most times hidden strike hits for 2-3k then a backstab (now with longer cooldown) for 3k. That is hardly mSsiveburst.

 

Assassins can run tank spec with stealth defensive cooldowns speed knockback and can burst for 3-5k.

 

Operatives and scoundrels have been nerfed more then any class because tbe devs think teams of operatives are causing people to unsub. I have news for you teams of any class attacking o.e target at the same time kill peolle just as fast or faster.

[FrankyMcShanky]

You realise their Shadow equivalent does too, right? (Plus Force Speed too.) Citing a skill that both Shadows and Scoundrels have as a way to argue that Scoundrels aren't just worse than Shadows is... not so convincing.

 

I wasn't comparing them to Shadows. I simply pointing out that Scoundrels have a soft gap closer out of stealth. I have a 83 Scrapper and I see no reason to compare my epeen to a shadow.

[Ich_Bin]

ITT: Lots of people that are still scared of Operatives and don't realize that they pose no real threat anymore.

[supavillainaire]

I have played scoundrel since prerelease and i have to say, no one ever mentions the things that allow this class to survive. In the 1v1 vanish/tranq is so strong, usually resulting in a full heal. if your speced 7-31-3 you get UH for healing so your right back on SP. Most of your stun are used to heal as well. Most people try to dps through the stuns and most of the time that is the wrong play.

 

When it comes to gap closers you do realize this class carrys a blaster right? Its not the greatest but if they have to run its for a reason and a blaster will bring them down. If led in with CB+SC as soon as you get rooted or they run you keep the damage on at all times (another thing most people dont use).

 

Also fake orbital strikes will force a scatter with out the combat entry/casttime/waste of CD, causing confusion and easy pickup of targets.

 

Myself, I have switched to hybrid at the moment because i think that is the strongest pvp spec and the real FotM (over sents) right now. Emergant emrgancy giving a 3rd stack of UH and SP out of the scrapper tree make this class versatile in all situations. Its has decent burst to help in combat when its needed, bursty single target healing, can help at range, and great survivabily. Played correctly it can feel like nothing can stop you but very punishing on mistakes.

[Ich_Bin]

Myself, I have switched to hybrid at the moment because i think that is the strongest pvp spec and the real FotM (over sents) right now. Emergant emrgancy giving a 3rd stack of UH and SP out of the scrapper tree make this class versatile in all situations. Its has decent burst to help in combat when its needed, bursty single target healing, can help at range, and great survivabily. Played correctly it can feel like nothing can stop you but very punishing on mistakes.

 

If you are specced into Emergent Emergencies you cannot really call that a hybrid anymore as it is pretty much a full healing spec when used in pvp.

I don't think anyone in this thread thinks that Operative healing is too weak right now and needs a buff. This thread is a dicussion about the dps specs. If you pick healing (or hybrid whatever) over the dps spec then you are basically proving the OPs point.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[supavillainaire]

If you are specced into Emergent Emergencies you cannot really call that a hybrid anymore as it is pretty much a full healing spec when used in pvp.

I don't think anyone in this thread thinks that Operative healing is too weak right now and needs a buff. This thread is a dicussion about the dps specs. If you don't play a full dps spec yourself then it looks like you don't think the Operative dps is very strong either.

 

No. It plays like a hybrid. It does not play at all like a full heal spec. Also if you reread what i said i think hybrid is the best pvp spec at the moment, nothing about scapper not being good.

[Husanak]

I would agree that OP/Smug Stealth Dps Tree is weak right now. It was OP at one time and after a few nerfs and a few buffs to the other melee classes it now seems weak. Of course being a stealth class weaker players are easy pickings... against half way decent anythings the OP is outmatched.

 

I don't think however that a massive buff is in order however a few minor tree changes could help a lot... here are a few of my idea. (I'll just use the OP tree cause I don't want to look up the smug counterparts)

 

Energy Screen (tier 4) Dodging and Resist attacks returns 1 power and removes heal debuff from cloak screen... perhaps adding a small movement buff on Dodge and Resist... even perhaps removing the power return. Something like... 5% movement buff for 10 sec when resisting or dodging stacks to a max of 3 or something.

[This would give OPS a little extra gap close when they are engaged in an active fight.]

 

Waylay (tier 5)... right now it provides a 4% dmg boost to backstab.

I would think removing the 4% dmg buff and replacing it with a 10-20% speed debuff for 10 seconds could be a nice add... again helps close gaps. Reduces some spike slightly. With all the speed debuffs the other melee classes get I don't think this would be a bad option for people going full Melee DPS tree Spec Op.

 

Advanced Cloaking (tier 6)... I don't think this needs to change I just wanted to point out that skill boosts speed 50% when using cloaking screen... it sort of is our gap closer. If you play the class well. Still its a skill that often will be used to escape a situation instead of reposition. So its a great talent, really though against good players you will be using it to escape... against weak players it is used to kill.

[Dejected]

What I'm confused about is people saying that we want things to go back to the way they were before the over-zealous sc/ops nerf.

 

Why do you say that it was "operatives" that could do the 3 shot insta deaths when hidden strike/shoot first knocked them down for 3 seconds?

 

The only reason damage was that high was because you could stack surge past the point of being useful, pop a crit trinket/and grab the red buff in a warzone and THEN pop an expertise adrenal, with biochem shyte running and boost your numbers to the point of mythic proportions. Not to mention that this was being done by 50's with expertise against 25-30's without.

 

The class was a strong 1v1 alpha strike class, and because of bad game design, we were singled out because of our ability to stealth.

 

What people fail to realize, is that those buffs were available to ALL classes. So a shad/assin could do the same thing.

 

 

The point the OP is trying to make, is that we cant abuse those game flaws anymore, and because of that we can't do burst damage enough to win a 1v1 fight against a similarly geared/skilled opponent.

 

Do not try to make the argument that sc/ops are good at taking out weak/half dead/undergeared players, because that's not balance, that's just an op trying to get a kill before they get gang ***** by the myriad of leap happy glowbat swingers.

 

God forbid an alpha strike stealth class be able to go into a melee and mix it up with the rest of the players. We will just have to stick to the shadows, pick our battles, and contribute absolutely jack schidt to the rest of the team.

 

All you sent/arauders can flame me now. I know you're just scared of being knocked off the top of the food chain.

[hulkweazel]

What I'm confused about is people saying that we want things to go back to the way they were before the over-zealous sc/ops nerf.

 

Why do you say that it was "operatives" that could do the 3 shot insta deaths when hidden strike/shoot first knocked them down for 3 seconds?

 

The only reason damage was that high was because you could stack surge past the point of being useful, pop a crit trinket/and grab the red buff in a warzone and THEN pop an expertise adrenal, with biochem shyte running and boost your numbers to the point of mythic proportions. Not to mention that this was being done by 50's with expertise against 25-30's without.

 

The class was a strong 1v1 alpha strike class, and because of bad game design, we were singled out because of our ability to stealth.

 

What people fail to realize, is that those buffs were available to ALL classes. So a shad/assin could do the same thing.

 

 

The point the OP is trying to make, is that we cant abuse those game flaws anymore, and because of that we can't do burst damage enough to win a 1v1 fight against a similarly geared/skilled opponent.

 

Do not try to make the argument that sc/ops are good at taking out weak/half dead/undergeared players, because that's not balance, that's just an op trying to get a kill before they get gang ***** by the myriad of leap happy glowbat swingers.

 

God forbid an alpha strike stealth class be able to go into a melee and mix it up with the rest of the players. We will just have to stick to the shadows, pick our battles, and contribute absolutely jack schidt to the rest of the team.

 

All you sent/arauders can flame me now. I know you're just scared of being knocked off the top of the food chain.

Reported. Users aren't allowed to make this much sense on the forums.

[khouj]

Most impressive operative performance screenshot competition? Sure

I think I got this.. none of these are concealment though.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=4179096&postcount=29

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=425452

 

 

As for the topic of this thread, I thought of a comparison that really makes my point obvious. Imagine a marauder dueling or 1v1ing the best operative healer on your server. He's snared all the time, stunned half the time he makes it to melee range, and his own snare is dispelled quickly every time. He spends half his time out of melee range if this is happening on a flat open field, and if there's a pole for the op to run around he spends more like 80% his time out of melee range.

 

Now imagine a mdps op in place of the marauder. The op healer is going to be in melee range for a maximum of about 7-8 seconds after the mdps operative opens from stealth or after using a vanish, as the mdps op uses his stun and dispellable root+snare. Assuming the healer doesn't use his cc breaker, in which case it's more like 3-4 seconds. Over the course of a few minutes he's going to spend over 90% his time out of melee range, regardless of whether there is a pole for the healer to run around or not (this includes him using vanish). The amount of pressure he can put on the healer is super low in this situation.

 

Right now in your average warzone this problem isn't apparent because most players don't know how to kite as well as the best player on their server. Most players aren't even aware of how easy it is to kite mdps ops/smugglers. In many fights the op can rely on being ignored, or other players slowing down his target. This is all that is keeping mdps operatives present in the game right now. In the setting of a rated warzone with two good teams, the mdps op is going to be nothing but a burden, especially in huttball.

 

I think game devs would agree, the lack of a competitive stealth melee dps class might not be a totally game breaking issue, but it's definitely worth addressing as this role is historically a popular one.

[Maxkardinal]

Right now in your average warzone this problem isn't apparent because most players don't know how to kite as well as the best player on their server. Most players aren't even aware of how easy it is to kite mdps ops/smugglers. In many fights the op can rely on being ignored, or other players slowing down his target. This is all that is keeping mdps operatives present in the game right now. In the setting of a rated warzone with two good teams, the mdps op is going to be nothing but a burden, especially in huttball

 

Tell this to scoundrels/ops, who make videos about how epic do they crit undergeared sorcs with 14k hpfor 5500+ while relic+adrenal+pvp buff up. They will call you mad hater, who simply bad.

And if you say that dps Ops/scoundrels can not carry their weight in 8v8 organized PvP, you will be told that "their guldmates" can, and will be a part of top rated team (which obviously is a lie)

 

That randomstompers even making guides, where explain that cunning and power benefit damage and people should get them. They also say that you should manage your energy and prefer less tanky targets to attack. This instructions are backed up with video footage, where they again pop everything and crit for big numbers.

 

Thnigs will become clear when 8v8 actually be possible.

 

Untill then... most damage done, highest crit scored, and 1v1 performance are their best metrics.

[Ravashakk]

I think I got this.. none of these are concealment though.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=4179096&postcount=29

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=425452

 

 

As for the topic of this thread, I thought of a comparison that really makes my point obvious. Imagine a marauder dueling or 1v1ing the best operative healer on your server. He's snared all the time, stunned half the time he makes it to melee range, and his own snare is dispelled quickly every time. He spends half his time out of melee range if this is happening on a flat open field, and if there's a pole for the op to run around he spends more like 80% his time out of melee range.

 

Now imagine a mdps op in place of the marauder. The op healer is going to be in melee range for a maximum of about 7-8 seconds after the mdps operative opens from stealth or after using a vanish, as the mdps op uses his stun and dispellable root+snare. Assuming the healer doesn't use his cc breaker, in which case it's more like 3-4 seconds. Over the course of a few minutes he's going to spend over 90% his time out of melee range, regardless of whether there is a pole for the healer to run around or not (this includes him using vanish). The amount of pressure he can put on the healer is super low in this situation.

 

Right now in your average warzone this problem isn't apparent because most players don't know how to kite as well as the best player on their server. Most players aren't even aware of how easy it is to kite mdps ops/smugglers. In many fights the op can rely on being ignored, or other players slowing down his target. This is all that is keeping mdps operatives present in the game right now. In the setting of a rated warzone with two good teams, the mdps op is going to be nothing but a burden, especially in huttball.

 

I think game devs would agree, the lack of a competitive stealth melee dps class might not be a totally game breaking issue, but it's definitely worth addressing as this role is historically a popular one.

 

I will agree those are impressive numbers. Here are 2 games from recent (both post 1.2)

http://i49.tinypic.com/2j35esi.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/30ijp7c.jpg

 

The first game was a void star that ended 45 secs early in the first round because we got to the end. So, essentially missing 90 secs of combat for that game. Was hoping to break into the 400/400 in those 90 secs.

 

Having issues finding the pic of my 900k healing wz.

 

http://i48.tinypic.com/ct47q.jpg <---what the "others" think of me.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Ravashakk