Buff Operatives

[willyshoot]

A surge-invested Ops/Scoundrel with similar gear level, using same adrenals and trinkets, does practicall the same thing to a pathetically frail Juggy in Shicho or Shien. 5k 4k 3k plus DoTs.

 

Opening up from stealth of course.

 

So what was the point of this chest thumping here?

 

Combat logs or it didn't happen.

 

I WILL quote combat logs.. I took 1.4m damage last night. How much from Hidden Strike? 0.... nada.. none.... zilch... not a single hit. Why? Because it doesn't hit for anyway near what you claim, all concealment ops have gone heals.

 

As proved previously with logs HS hits for (on average) 2.3k. No where near these 5k hits people reckon we do.

 

Out of the 1.4m damage what was the biggest hitters? master Strike and Smash... both maxing at over 5k with 1200+ expertise.

 

BW literally have no idea of how to balance this game and is religiously defended by blind fan boys.

[Maxkardinal]

Heh,

 

I smell a "but I don't use ranged powers.. it's pathetic. Only the first opening burst means anything" argument coming from somewhere.

 

But i smell taht you would be protecting point that snipers have strong melee abilities and should stand toe to toe with any melee class instead of breaking distance.

[kweassa]

If you are thinking this game is about 1v1 - you are having NOOOOOO clue at all.

 

Weren't you the one who came up with a situation where your lonely Ops is trying to hit a healer, guarded, and another tank nearby, and then complained you can't do much damage on the healer?

 

 

I was comparing dps Ops abilities to execute its team role - deliver damage when and where its needed - against actions could be done to prevent it.

 

No, you were comparing ONE dps Ops against THREE enemies, in a tactically defensive position.

 

 

Actaully your phrase about mrauder 4 sec stealth is showing it all. You will be surprised but 4 sec is just enough to get back on target after knockback (when leap on CD), and tahts what melee clas needs - stay at your target.

 

Where's your gun? (Refer to the smirky prediction I made in the above posts)

 

 

I dont see point in arguing with you about pvp, you are missing the basics.

 

...and you're a whiner who can't stop dreaming about the good ol' Op days of balance-busting mega spikes.

 

Wake up, friend.

[Squatdog_nz]

You mean like, it's difficult to get a marauder in your team nowadays?

 

Which heavenly server do you play at! No marauders!! Woo Hoo!!!

 

Any more arguments that I can crush?

 

Bloodthirst requires 30 stacks of Fury,has a 15sec duration, with a 5min cooldown

 

Just stop talking.

[Valperion]

Heh,

 

I smell a "but I don't use ranged powers.. it's pathetic. Only the first opening burst means anything" argument coming from somewhere.

 

They can't really make a argument.

* Its essentially people defending their skill tree.

* People have this concept in believing that the "Concealment" tree should have everything.

 

Players should really try the "Lethality" tree, every skill tree has a different advantage/disadvantage.

* But of course, there will always be that group that needs something more.

[Onikcys]

In all seriousness, all I got from reading this thread was: „WWWWWAAAAAAAAA we have a weakness!“

[dronepilot]

Assassins have stealth, a gap closer, a (talented) pull and survivability.

 

Operatives have one of these.

 

That's just nit picking. Assassins, and shadows that have the 'pull' are specced out in that tree. I do not have the pull ability, as I am specialised in a different tree. You clearly don't understand our class very much..

 

You get another gap closer, ok fine, then I want another one too ! - did you see what I did there ?

[kweassa]

Combat logs or it didn't happen.

 

I WILL quote combat logs.. I took 1.4m damage last night. How much from Hidden Strike? 0.... nada.. none.... zilch... not a single hit. Why? Because it doesn't hit for anyway near what you claim, all concealment ops have gone heals.

 

As proved previously with logs HS hits for (on average) 2.3k. No where near these 5k hits people reckon we do.

 

The nifty point here would be that Ops whiners absolutely love to use the minimum point as gauging the performance, and redress it to a nice, but very different wording of "average".

 

Understandable - its only human.

 

 

Out of the 1.4m damage what was the biggest hitters? master Strike and Smash... both maxing at over 5k with 1200+ expertise.

 

BW literally have no idea of how to balance this game and is religiously defended by blind fan boys.

 

I don't seem to remember hearing you complaining when Ops hit far harder than that in the opening days. Point me to a post you've made, if you've ever issued a complaint in accordance with your excellent sense of "balance", when you've ever objected to the Ops were dishing out mega-spikes.

 

Do I need to make any more pointers on just what kind of double standards Ops whiners are showing here?

[Maxkardinal]

Where's your gun? (Refer to the smirky prediction I made in the above posts)

 

Oh, now i got it. You are sugesting ops to spam overloaded and rifle shots when they are out melee range. And Snipe, of course. Right? I see. Thanks for laughs.

 

Ps.

I never said Ops neede more damage. Damage is fine - utility - is not. You are miising basics, you will never see the whole picture.

[Polimeris]

If stealth is a gap closer, you have to agree that stealth scan is a long lasting 30 yard aoe bump.

Stealth is not a gap closer. It's its own unique thing : stealth.

 

It's like saying rifle shot is gap closer because it allows you to make damage at range even if you are a melee class. That's just completely beside the point.

[kweassa]

Bloodthirst requires 30 stacks of Fury,has a 15sec duration, with a 5min cooldown

 

Just stop talking.

 

...and 7k crits from Focus Guardians requires what, a 15 second CD from a Force Charge/Zealous Leap, a 1 min CD on Force Stasis, a combat worthy stim, activation of a trinket and adrenal, and a 12 second Force Sweep in a 6~7 second course of action?

 

What, Bloodthirst 5 minutes, so its different? OK. Drop the 15%. 5k damage is now down to around 4.3k.

 

Wow... so weak!

[Valperion]

If stealth is a gap closer, you have to agree that stealth scan is a long lasting 30 yard aoe bump.

Stealth is not a gap closer. It's its own unique thing : stealth.

 

It's like saying rifle shot is gap closer because it allows you to make damage at range even if you are a melee class. That's just completely beside the point.

 

The stealth ability is a gap closer...

* To approach your target without alerting anyone and you can then strike the enemy at your own accord, while your enemy will not know what hit him.

 

The only time someone would use a stealth scanner would be if they knew there was a invis agent in the area.

* Where most of the time , people don't know.

[kweassa]

If stealth is a gap closer, you have to agree that stealth scan is a long lasting 30 yard aoe bump.

Stealth is not a gap closer. It's its own unique thing : stealth.

 

It's like saying rifle shot is gap closer because it allows you to make damage at range even if you are a melee class. That's just completely beside the point.

 

You're willing to accept the "unique thing" about stealth, and is different from a true gap closer...and yet you fail to accept the stealth class of SWTOR in general is also "unique", and therefore has its own unique set weaknesses.

 

You don't want "unique" weaknesses, you just want the class to be "universal" in its ability to combat in all sorts of condition when it suits you.

 

See what I'm talking about 'double standard' here?

[kweassa]

Oh, now i got it. You are sugesting ops to spam overloaded and rifle shots when they are out melee range. And Snipe, of course. Right? I see. Thanks for laughs.

 

Ps.

I never said Ops neede more damage. Damage is fine - utility - is not. You are miising basics, you will never see the whole picture.

 

Your stealth is all the utility you need. Not being seen, is about the most powerful set of utility that can be seen in any MMOG. Stealth classes are revered in that aspect, and I myself, as mentioned, have seen and experienced a lot of excellent Ops/Scoundrel players who contribute to the team in more ways than the target-fixated, bloodthirsty, and kill-driven idiots that constantly seek nothing but an opportunity to kill something and throw down the classic derogatory emotes.

 

The picture suggests you use it, wisely, and start thinking out of that crummy little 'bad-arse wannabe box', and realize that there's actually loads of useful things you can do while not being seen. If you can't find what that is, then keep on complaining about 'utility'. We'll be having fun with our good ol' utilitarian Scoundrels in my team.

Edited May 4, 2012 by kweassa

[khouj]

In all seriousness, all I got from reading this thread was: „WWWWWAAAAAAAAA we have a weakness!“

Lol, that's exactly my point. But it seems a little fairer if I change it to "WWWWWAAAAAAAAA conc/scrapper isn't viable in high level play!"

[khouj]

Players should really try the "Lethality" tree, every skill tree has a different advantage/disadvantage.

Ops playing leth is just wierd, but my gut feeling is it won't work out in rateds. I've put up 800k playing leth in a voidstar just tab dotting people, but I'm pretty sure a sorc or something could do the same thing better.

[willyshoot]

The nifty point here would be that Ops whiners absolutely love to use the minimum point as gauging the performance, and redress it to a nice, but very different wording of "average".

 

Understandable - its only human.

 

I don't seem to remember hearing you complaining when Ops hit far harder than that in the opening days. Point me to a post you've made, if you've ever issued a complaint in accordance with your excellent sense of "balance", when you've ever objected to the Ops were dishing out mega-spikes.

 

Do I need to make any more pointers on just what kind of double standards Ops whiners are showing here?

 

I have NEVER said minimum. L2R.

This thread is about Ops now - why the f*** are you talking about the game ages ago??????????? What an absolutely pointless paragraph you wrote.

 

Until you provide logs your posts are anecdotal and wrong. I am guessing you will reply and there will be no logs.. no evidence..

 

Combat logs or nothing.

Edited May 4, 2012 by willyshoot

[kweassa]

I have NEVER said minimum. L2R.

This thread is about Ops now - why the f*** are you talking about the game ages ago??????????? What an absolutely pointless paragraph you wrote.

 

Until you provide logs your posts are anecdotal and wrong. I am guessing you will reply and there will be no logs.. no evidence..

 

Combat logs or nothing.

 

You're speaking as if I'm the one who's QQing, "Oh but we're so nerfed now, we can't kill anything, WAAAAAAH".

 

I'm kind of thinking that annoying, whiny Ops overtone mentioning, "we're so nerfed now", is in regards to the fact that Ops/Scoundies in the opening phases of the game were like, pok-pok-pok-death. Lovely days.

 

Therefore, "why I am taking about the game ages ago", would be because the whiny Ops players in this thread, probably can't get their heads out of that "ages ago", and keep on displaying symptoms of paranoia and persecution complex.

 

I'd like to suggest; "Man up, shut up, and play, or if not, then quit.

 

Like as if this game needs any more QQ.

Edited May 4, 2012 by kweassa

[willyshoot]

You're speaking as if I'm the one who's QQing,..

 

Scanned for combat logs.. none as predicted.. TL;DR

Edited May 4, 2012 by willyshoot

[Flyingcookie]

The ONLY melee class witout knockback.gapcloser ect. NONE of these no utility AT ALL

 

y we need it.

[KyoMamoru]

Stealth isn't a great 'gap closer.' It actively prevents an Agent from using achieving full combat functionality due to the broken mechanics to exit combat. Despite the claims of Developers, you do not always drop out of stealth after eight seconds. So due to the mechanics of regaining stealth, an Agent has to avoid:

 

Grenades.

Flash Bang. [AoE Mez]

Orbital Strike.

Dot Attacks.

Target Switching.

Topping off Allies.

 

Once again, the Agent also wants to avoid any confrontation that has the chance to drag on since it means more people can target him. Outside of his ability to force a combat break every two minutes, the agent is left with little chance outside of a total slaughter of the opposition to regain his movement ability. This has become a larger issue with the increase in Health/armor rating that we're seeing, and the reducing in damage that the class is capable of.

 

How would you feel if Charge or Force Speed could only be used once during a single combat iteration? Stealth currently dominates the actions a Concealment Agent can take, and the situations that he can interact with as mentioned above. Though it is incredibly useful in approaching a target/area, it loses all uses once combat has started. With that said, it's great if you're constantly respawning...

Edited May 4, 2012 by KyoMamoru

[DweezillKagemand]

Yeah, you do know stealth is bad in this game right?

 

You kind-of get passively revealed all the time if you don't have Sneak up.

[Ravashakk]

I searched through most of the trash posted on this thread, and here is what I would care to comment on in no particular order of precedence:

 

1. OP, you say high level play, but what makes you think you are in "high level play"? I bet you're some pug that didn't kill someone in a few seconds. You just sound like it from your post, tbh.

 

2. Stealth is not a gap closer. It doesn't get you to the target any quicker than running would. Saying it is indirectly a gap closer is bs, and anyone with half a brain knows it.

 

3. Conc Ops were OP as hell when swtor came out. They deserved the nerfs they got for the most part.

 

4. OP you talk about giving them higher mobility or a gap closer.....but then go on to say a good thing to do is to cc them after HS stun wears off because they don't follow with their 4 sec stun. So you use your cc, and run away only to have the gap closed so the op can finish the job. We have a slow and ranged attacks for a reason.

 

5. I see a lot of ppl posting about their operatives saying the initial burst is 5k, 4k, 3k....and nothing else is really mentioned except dots. I'm going out on a limb here when I say that the 5k = HS, 4k = BS, and 3k = shiv. Not one mention of EP, when when combined with one of the 2 latter deals considerable burst. I hate making other operatives better, but neglecting some of your strongest moves because you can't move while doing them or aren't stabbing someone is just stupid. Back before EP got changed, I use to snipe -> EP and the EP would blow the same time the snipe would land giving you the appearance of doing some insane burst from 1 attack. (As a healer I often dealt 5k'ish on those 2 combined)

 

6. As I mentioned above, I've played a med op for some time now. I do a LOT of dmg on my operative to help focus down targets when healing isn't as necessary. I think my dmg is OP and I didn't even spec beyond the 2nd tier in the conceal tree. Anything that buffs conceal that isn't directly related to their talents in the higher portion would only make me more annoying for everyone against me.

 

7. I make use of all my tools to be effective. Orbital strike being one of them. I bursted an assassin down out of stealth (no HS opener because I was healing when he jumped me) in the most embarrassing way possible. I kited him away a bit. I shivved him from 100% health, and put ST on him to slow him down. I got some distance and cast OS on my location as he lingered forward. As he realized what was happening, he tried to turn and run but was too late. I stunned him right after the OS cast was finished. I then covered, snipe -> EP then a backstab...all which crit. So from 100% I shivved him for 2.2k, OS got 2 ticks in for 2.9k each, snipe was a 3.1k crit, EP crit for 3.4k, backstab hit for 3.6k. That's 18,100 dmg from a healer...and the only thing he could avoid was the shiv...everything else was in stun for the most part. Was he the best assassin in the world? No, but the fact remains....as a med op I smashed the hell out of this guy with the tools I'm given without the big bad opener.

 

8. Can't compare other classes to us. I know this seems unfair but you can always find something we have that they don't. People did this in wow all the time with feral druids and rogues. Ferals: "Why don't I have a vanish" Rogues: "Because you have heals and can turn into a bear".

 

9. Not all specs are viable for PVP/PVE. Frost mages were terrible at PVE for the longest time, but they dominated in PVP. Would it be great if they were viable in both? Yes, but it is really hard to balance it without making them super strong in PVP. If you want to PVE on your op, you can always use the other 2 trees.

[Squatdog_nz]

...and 7k crits from Focus Guardians requires what, a 15 second CD from a Force Charge/Zealous Leap, a 1 min CD on Force Stasis, a combat worthy stim, activation of a trinket and adrenal, and a 12 second Force Sweep in a 6~7 second course of action?

 

What, Bloodthirst 5 minutes, so its different? OK. Drop the 15%. 5k damage is now down to around 4.3k.

 

Wow... so weak!

 

You have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about.

 

All a well-geared Jugg needs is either Force Charge OR Obliterate (both 15sec CDs) for the guraenteed crit and either Enrage (1min CD) OR Force Crush (18sec) for the 100% damage bonus.

 

They can auto-crit over 5k+ with Smash WITHOUT adrenal/relic, while an Operative can only ever crit for 5k WITH them and even then, only opening from stealth on light or medium armour.

 

Just stop talking.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Squatdog_nz

[khouj]

1. OP, you say high level play, but what makes you think you are in "high level play"? I bet you're some pug that didn't kill someone in a few seconds. You just sound like it from your post, tbh.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.