Buff Operatives

[DarkSaberMaster]

Scoundrels/operatives need way more utility, like sins have:

 

1. Underworld push - 20 sec cd (= force wave)

2. Underworld speed +150% over 2 sec, 20 sec cd (= force speed)

3. Headshot/cheapshot must work for targets below 30% hp (= assasinate)

4. Underworld low kick - mezz 4 sec every 15 sec cd (= low slash)

5. Shoot first/hidden strike must work out of stealth too (=maul)

6. Better energy regeneration

 

Sooooo. Basicly you want to be an Assassin, but with heals?

[Haystak]

Sooooo. Basicly you want to be an Assassin, but with heals?

 

Make them passive heals, and I'm sold

[randiesel]

Epic necro. Normally I make it a policy to not post in such threads.

 

But....

 

Rumor has it that this class might possibly, maybe, potentially be getting a gap closer in the somewhat, near, approaching future.

 

At least what is supposedly coming is befitting of a smuggler and isn't a "shadowstep". That wouldn't really befit an agent either, regardless if it were made to look techie.

[randiesel]

Scoundrels/operatives need way more utility, like sins have:

 

1. Underworld push - 20 sec cd (= force wave)

2. Underworld speed +150% over 2 sec, 20 sec cd (= force speed)

3. Headshot/cheapshot must work for targets below 30% hp (= assasinate)

4. Underworld low kick - mezz 4 sec every 15 sec cd (= low slash)

5. Shoot first/hidden strike must work out of stealth too (=maul)

6. Better energy regeneration

 

Actual our equivalent to Maul is Back Blast/Backstab. Shoot First/Hidden Strike would be the equivalent of Spinning Kick/Spike, but not really the equivalent in any means other than a knockdown b/c Spinning Kick doesn't do massive damage like Shoot First does.

 

Only points I agree with are an execute ability and better energy regen in the form of more fluidity to it.

 

And don't get your hopes up on a huge makeover. Looks like Dirty Fighting/Lethality is getting the biggest overhaul (if it's real).

Edited February 10, 2013 by randiesel

[Haystak]

Im going to find some lore on this.

 

Scoundrels werent really covered in any stories I have read. and operatives(or agents period) are hard to find the canon as well. Mostly they all adhere to the gunglingers Han, and Lando.

 

Edit/Update: Nothing on teleporting for agents/smugglers. SOme instances of decoys, and holographic imaging, but no teleporting.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Haystak

[biowareftw]

I'm actually more interested in why people like you and biggermucles post. ArchangelABC has a pretty good history of thoughtful posts and understanding of game mechanics. You on the other hand think dps scoundrels were viable before bubble stun lol.

 

They were viable, not ideal but they were at least somewhat viable.

 

No he doesn't understand this game or that class. This is a stunlock/control/annoy class by design. When you can't stunlock/control/annoy (a healer), or make a target switch and do heavy dmg due to bubble stun? The class is worthless. Now if you want the "kill you in opener" class back? Sorry that ain't gonna happen.

 

Would they need additional buffs besides taking bubblestun away? Possibly. It might also be the case that the stealth tank class hybrid spec is STUPIDLY strong and solo caps/defends nodes better then the scoundrel/op, which is what their "niche" is supposed to be.

 

Take hybrid sins/shadows down a peg or two and scoundrel/op viability would go up even more.

 

The best 1 v 1 class is currently a tank/hybrid. When that class has stealth? All other stealth classes become pointless. When that class is also the best defender at a node, that will live the longest before calling for help? That is even more broken. Add the ability to guard/taunt? It is a no brainer.

 

Scoundrel/op design intention. 1 v 1 class that can solo cap/defend nodes and or provide good burst/control on a target.

 

Hybrid sin/shadow is better 1 v 1.

Scoundrel burst/control is negated by bubblestun.

Scoundrel is worst "offhealer" since it self kites itself from it's kill target with no way back (a shadowstep), and also keeps themselves in combat (can't restealth).

Hybrid Sin/Shadow is fantastic at protection.

 

All of this makes scoundrels/ops pointless.

 

Before bubblestun though at least scoundrels/ops could blow stuff up when min/maxed. Now they can't even do that.

[ktkenshinx]

I'm going to come off sounding aggressive and upset in this post. Maybe biggermuscles was just overstating his case and letting rhetoric get the better of him (that happens to me too, so I understand). But if he's being serious, well, then take my words as they are intended.

why do people continue to whine about op dps?

 

i play scrapper dps (when i'm soloing, i'm more useful to premades as a healer) and i almost always destroy my target

If you "almost always" destroy your target then you are a) playing only against undergeared, low-skill opponents, b) playing only against Snipers and Mercs, c) playing only against pugs with no premades, healers, or tanks, d) extremely lucky that your targets never have any CDs up, e) lying, or f) some combination of the above.

what you crybabies need to realize is you can't go around stealthing and killing anyone and everyone in sight

 

the purpose of your stealth class is to reach someone through stealth, gank them, stealth back out and run away, or even more appropriately, stealth gank or sap someone at a node and cap them

We agree on the second part of this: stealthing to a node to kill/sap a target and cap the node.

 

But the first part is just ridiculous. Yes, we have to reach a target through stealth, and yes, we should be able to kill them. We do not, however, need to restealth after every single kill. We do just fine in team fights so long as you stay mobile, know when to LOS and kite away, know when to retreat, and know how far to chase. We are also equally strong at defensive plays, which you completely fail to mention.

a lot of the problems you "scrubs" have is with rotations.....that being said, l2rotation

 

flechette round > shoot first > back blast > stun > explosive probe from cover/crouch > sucker punch > back blast

 

if he isn't close to dying or dead yet, stealth back out, flechette round > shoot first > sucker punch/ back blast

I was willing to give your post the benefit of the doubt until I saw this unbelievably stupid rotation.

 

This is unquestionably the worst rotation I have ever seen someone seriously submit as a "real" rotation. I don't even know where to start with how wrong it is, as well as the assumptions underlying it:

1) Stacking SF and BB is idiotic. You need to maximize the FR DOT, and your only 2 delivery systems for that DOT are SF from stealth and BB (fired 6 seconds later) from unstealthed.

2) Where the heck is Blaster Whip in your rotation?

3) Why does that final Back Blast not have an FR attached to it?

4) How did that final BB magically come off of CD about 4.5 seconds after you just used it?

5) If you need to restealth to finish your target in every 1v1, that tells you that you are doing something very wrong; we have more than enough damage to finish a fight without restealthing.

6) The fact that you think a 4-5 move rotation will bring a target close to "dead or dying" is an outrageous oversimplification. Against a full hp Marauder, for example, your opening combo (which should be SF+FR, BW, Kick, SC, BB+FR) might bring your target down to around 40% health. At that point, he pops his Cloak of Pain, maybe his Saber Ward, maybe Berserk, etc. The fight is FAR FROM OVER. If anything, it's just getting started now that he has full resolve. We can still win, but that fight ain't over.

ps: as for needing a gap closer, no, just NO, use the root you get from the talent tree to close the gap, or stealth, either way, you shoudln't ever be kited unless it's a bubble sorc, and even then, they should die rather quickly (bubble stun sorcs IS a whole other beast though)

There are a lot of things wrong with this statement, but I am going to focus on the most outrageous:

 

"you should never be kited unless it's a bubble sorc"

 

Well friend, it turns out that bubble sorcs, Madness Sorcs, and basically EVERY SORC IN THE GAME are all excellent at kiting us (Lightning 0+/17+/17+, Madness 0+/0+/31, etc.). In fact, the ONLY class that is kiting us is the Sorcerer, which can turn that matchup into a real nightmare if you don't know what you are doing. Lightning gives access to bubble and Electric Bindings. Madness gives access to Creeping Terror and insta-cast WW. Healing gives Fadeout and insta-crit heals. The matchup is totally winnable...but not the way that you suggest it is. A real gap closer will really help that match, especially given all the buffs and changes that Sorcs are probably getting come the new content patch.

Edited February 10, 2013 by ktkenshinx

[ArchangelLBC]

They were viable, not ideal but they were at least somewhat viable.

 

No he doesn't understand this game or that class. This is a stunlock/control/annoy class by design. When you can't stunlock/control/annoy (a healer), or make a target switch and do heavy dmg due to bubble stun? The class is worthless. Now if you want the "kill you in opener" class back? Sorry that ain't gonna happen.

 

Would they need additional buffs besides taking bubblestun away? Possibly. It might also be the case that the stealth tank class hybrid spec is STUPIDLY strong and solo caps/defends nodes better then the scoundrel/op, which is what their "niche" is supposed to be.

 

Take hybrid sins/shadows down a peg or two and scoundrel/op viability would go up even more.

 

The best 1 v 1 class is currently a tank/hybrid. When that class has stealth? All other stealth classes become pointless. When that class is also the best defender at a node, that will live the longest before calling for help? That is even more broken. Add the ability to guard/taunt? It is a no brainer.

 

Scoundrel/op design intention. 1 v 1 class that can solo cap/defend nodes and or provide good burst/control on a target.

 

Hybrid sin/shadow is better 1 v 1.

Scoundrel burst/control is negated by bubblestun.

Scoundrel is worst "offhealer" since it self kites itself from it's kill target with no way back (a shadowstep), and also keeps themselves in combat (can't restealth).

Hybrid Sin/Shadow is fantastic at protection.

 

All of this makes scoundrels/ops pointless.

 

Before bubblestun though at least scoundrels/ops could blow stuff up when min/maxed. Now they can't even do that.

 

So now they aren't viable because Shadows are so strong? Maybe if Operatives could finish what they started they'd be stronger as node assaulters (where you can't complain as much because bubbles on those guards are much more rare unless a warzone happens to have two. Otherwise they're wasted on an offnode).

 

Not exactly sure why you're so adamant against a widely acknowledged underpowered class getting a class explicit buff. It's no skin off my nose personally. I don't play one, so you're right to say I don't understand the class, and I have no doubt that you guys are shut down by bubble stuns even more than my Combat Sent is, but lets not pretend the DPS operative woes are going to end when that gets whatever nerf is coming to bubble stuns.

[Zunayson]

Im going to find some lore on this.

 

Scoundrels werent really covered in any stories I have read. and operatives(or agents period) are hard to find the canon as well. Mostly they all adhere to the gunglingers Han, and Lando.

 

Edit/Update: Nothing on teleporting for agents/smugglers. SOme instances of decoys, and holographic imaging, but no teleporting.

 

From kotor, Scoundrels were squishy, lightly armored targets that ran around with many skills instead of many feats. They would use Sneak Attack X feat to get basically 3x damage (Actually it was a straight 9-45 dmg range, which is A LOT) on their first hit. Their signature move was a move that quadrupled critical hit chance, and lowered defense. However, they do receive a passive defense bonus.

 

Scoundrels are pretty spot on if they up the damage and lower the survivability. Because self heals, clense, and vanish is a lot.

 

To the rotation deal:

 

The above poster (Not directly above) got it spot on; Maximize dot damage, put blaster whip on cd all the time. All the time. This means using it after opener unless you have two UH. Backblast should be used any time there is no dot on the target and blaster whip is on cooldown, Sab Charge to be used all the time. Putting Corrosive Dart/Vital shot is always good for sustained damage since 18% is nice.

 

So rotation in oppy terms should be AB + HS, Shiv, Stun, Lac, Lac, Shiv, Expl probe, AB + BS, Shiv, Lac, (One more lac if proc). I didn't put in Energy boost or dart because this is for maximum burst instead of sustained. Basically you'll get fewer Lacs, and no expl probe in for burst I guess... I've shelved my operative for the most part; snipers are so fun.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Zunayson

[JohnElias]

Having a Valor 100 Operative, I'm assured that our damage may not be at fault here. I also understand we have energy management issues which need to be looked at, but the real problem here is that most of our abilities are crit dependent.

 

I propose 3 changes to our class:

 

1. Give us an ability much like the the PT/Van ability that increases our crit by 25%. With this, we can squeeze in a little more power to increase our burst potential. This will also result in multiple crits from Explosive Probe, Backstab, Shiv, and Laceration therefore bringing back burst to the class. The effect can last up to 5, 10, 15 secs or whatever sounds reasonable.

 

2. Increase the amount of TAs we can stack, which in return increases our energy management by a fixed percentage depending on how many TAs we have stacked. The percentage can be increased. I gave small numerical values to make it look reasonable and not OP.

 

Example:

 

0 TAs = Regular energy return

1 TA = 2% energy returned per second

2 TAs = 4% energy returned per second

Etc...

 

3. Gap closer. Remove our Sneak speed buff, and give us a real gap closer.

 

Example: A grapple to jump to an enemy, a teleport to the enemy, or simply increase the speed of the Sneak speed buff to 50%.

 

My 2 cents... I would love to see these changes for the Operative Advanced Class.

[bryceman]

I'm lvling up an Operative atm as Conc, and I'll have to agree we definitly need a charge or leap, or a short-term movement burst.

All melee classes should have a quick way to get in range of a target; warriors have charge, assassins have their force speed thing... But yea.. operatives don't have anything -_-

 

1.7 apparently is adding 2 gap closing abilities for scoundrels which should help out.

[Yamahara]

They definitely do not need a buff. There are many server records with Ops in the top 5 to prove that. Edited February 10, 2013 by Yamahara

[BraaxusKun]

Operative is capable of doing nice damage even in warzones that arent ranked, civil war is good for damage, with airstrikes and such, been getting 450k+ dmg a lot recently:

 

http://kungaming-pvp-pve.enjin.com/gallery/m/10844007/detail/114052#pid=1044348

 

Operative has a very specific technique to it when trying to go for high damage numbers, but it really isn't primarily designed for that, you've got plenty of utility for 1v1, as it is basically in its truest function for duels, go solo cap nodes, if u wanna dps like a pro just sit and throw airstrike down/grenades lol, operative is balanced as it is now.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RUjw1_airk

Edited February 10, 2013 by BraaxusKun

[orccrist]

The major problem is not the damage itself. You burn through all of your energy way to fast, the resources just aren't made for zerging like on other ac's. Healers for example only have to survive the initial burst attempt to outlast the damage done by a scrapper.

[mtsr]

shiv stunners are OP atm if the overall class gets buffed then shiv stunners tree will need nerfed...

same with the healing tree.

[Carter_Mathis]

shiv stunners are OP atm if the overall class gets buffed then shiv stunners tree will need nerfed...

same with the healing tree.

 

Good joke, no one is asking for the buff to be a buff to burst damage, that would be inane. What we would like is either a better system of energy management or better sustained damage. Especially if some of the datamined changes are true, ops will fall pretty far behind in dps (for scrapper/concealment)

[Keyran-Halcyon]

shiv stunners are OP atm if the overall class gets buffed then shiv stunners tree will need nerfed...

same with the healing tree.

 

If you really think that Scrapper/Concealment is OP at the moment, then you must either really suck or have crappy gear. and I wonder what you must think of the bubblestun and smash specs.

 

Sadly its these types of uninformed generalized statements that BW seems to pay attention to more.