Buff Operatives

[khouj]

I will agree those are impressive numbers. Here are 2 games from recent (both post 1.2)

http://i49.tinypic.com/2j35esi.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/30ijp7c.jpg

 

The first game was a void star that ended 45 secs early in the first round because we got to the end. So, essentially missing 90 secs of combat for that game. Was hoping to break into the 400/400 in those 90 secs.

 

Having issues finding the pic of my 900k healing wz.

 

http://i48.tinypic.com/ct47q.jpg <---what the "others" think of me.

lol

 

***..

 

That's pretty unusual to me, and impressive. What do you think about med/conc hybrid? Because I see you're doing this as full med.

[Ravashakk]

lol

 

***..

 

That's pretty unusual to me, and impressive. What do you think about med/conc hybrid? Because I see you're doing this as full med.

 

My 10 points are in the first 2 tiers of conceal. Never tried anything else, because in my head I'd be losing too much on the healing side to boost my dmg. I really want to do some corrosive dart boosting, but like I said...too much sacrifice.

 

In the end, the healing I do is more important than the dmg, and want to maximize my primary objective.

[Seravis]

I vote yes for giving Operatives Mobility. I still don't think it will "fix" the class ,but that is more due to the current "meta game" of Tanks+ Guarded healers that easily survive and heal through the initial burst removing the main advantage of the operative class.

 

Dps Operatives are also laughably bad at huttball. They have no role in that WZ besides tickling the huttball carrier and getting knocked off ledges. Having a leap would definitely help them immensely.

 

This is coming from someone who loses consistently to Operatives 1v1 on most of my classes. However, I understand the game should be balanced around organized group PVP in WZs instead of around"I should win all 1v1s".

 

P.S. Nerf OP healers! (Their name is even the initials for OverPowered!)

[khouj]

My 10 points are in the first 2 tiers of conceal. Never tried anything else, because in my head I'd be losing too much on the healing side to boost my dmg. I really want to do some corrosive dart boosting, but like I said...too much sacrifice.

 

In the end, the healing I do is more important than the dmg, and want to maximize my primary objective.

Man if you have never even tried it, I have to urge you to because it's quite strong and seems like it would fit you perfect. You just go up to pin down in conc, its like 24/17 since energy screen isn't a must have after 1.2. Revitalizers is like a free extra probe on yourself, and its super overpowered in 1v1. I won't lie though, losing rn is noticeable when healing your team.

Edited May 6, 2012 by khouj

[Ravashakk]

Man if you have never even tried it, I have to urge you to because it's quite strong and seems like it would fit you perfect. You just go up to pin down in conc, its like 24/17 since energy screen isn't a must have after 1.2. Revitalizers is like a free extra probe on yourself, and its super overpowered in 1v1. I won't lie though, losing rn is noticeable when healing your team.

 

I prefer the survivability over the dmg boost, as much as I want to try it out. Just today, on 2 separate occassions I 1v2ed a couple of guys all because my survivability is high and I know how to use LoS to my advantage. I might kill things faster with a more hybrid spec, but my main goal is never dying so I can keep putting out heals or interrupting objectives from being capped.

[khouj]

I prefer the survivability over the dmg boost, as much as I want to try it out. Just today, on 2 separate occassions I 1v2ed a couple of guys all because my survivability is high and I know how to use LoS to my advantage. I might kill things faster with a more hybrid spec, but my main goal is never dying so I can keep putting out heals or interrupting objectives from being capped.

You can heal yourself better as hybrid lol. I'm not joking, revitalizers is amazing. At least it felt that way, maybe it was all the root. You definitely dont lose survivability, I can say that for sure. This spec excels at 1v2'ing and the like, that's its strong point! Its weakness is when you want to do nothing but heal others, you're missing ~10% on injection and the aoe.

Edited May 6, 2012 by khouj

[JediDuckling]

Let's have a realistic discussion.

 

In the current state of the game, conc operatives/ scrapper smugglers are a below average melee damage class. They can deal burst damage, but not as well as some other classes, while at the same time they lack mobility/survivability (these are the same thing sometimes). Additionally, they are behind or slightly behind other classes sustained damage output. To make up for these weaknesses they have only stealth, which loses its power naturally over time as player skill rises.

 

The main point I want to make is, to a well played ranged or semi ranged class in a 1v1 the operative is currently a joke. The class is simply trivial to kite and falls apart quickly once any initial momentum is lost. This might not be noticed by most players who have limited experience fighting operatives, and aren't aware how easy to kite they are, let alone ever try it themselves. I believe the classes weaknesses are set to be exposed with the release of any competitive pvp, which will give a clearer view of balance in high level swtor.

 

Think about huttball, where the weakness of operatives is actually widely recognised. All flavours of operative, but dps ops especially since they are melee, are weak in huttball. The class simply lacks any kind of mobility or utility ability.

 

I will give out a tip I think will surprise many players. When you are knocked on your face by an operative, this stun only lasts for ~1.5s, the same duration as the global cooldown. Many, many operatives will use another damaging ability in their second global instead of using their 4 second stun, leaving you a gap to use your own stun or mezz on the operative. If they do not have their cc break cooldown up you just ruined their entire opener and can walk to safety/snare the operative etc. - basically escaping unscathed. I see players fail to use this opportunity time and time again. I'm saying start trying to get out of melee range as your number one priority, because this is the achilles heel of the class.

 

I see the main argument against buffing operatives as being: on average, operatives are in an OK place balance wise right now, so why should they be buffed in any way? While I personally think that the game should be balanced around high level pvp (where dps ops are sorely lacking), many would disagree, and objective data won't exist until competitive pvp is introduced anyway. So I propose operatives be buffed in a way that corrects their worthlessness at very skilled levels of play, without altering the average power of the class which most players will face.

 

I suggest the mobility of operatives be buffed substantially. The amount of damage the class can frontload will be unchanged, and this is the part of the class people are sensitive about. Nobody is complaining that operatives can stick to their target too well, only that they 'just three shot them while stunned', right?

 

Imagine an operative with the leap of a marauder, only without the root or interrupt (in other words shadowstep). You may imagine an operative leaping out of nowhere and killing you very fast, but what is the difference between that and appearing out of stealth? Or, Imagine an operative with a skill similar to force sprint, only half the speed.

 

I think it's clear what I am trying to say, buff the mobility of operatives to make them competitive in high level play now, and general play in the future as average skill rises.

 

smugglers/agets need a nerf not a buff

 

smuggs and agents have tons of utility and realy high damage they are able to spam.

they can stealth also which closes the gap on range as they can open up with a knockdown etc

they are also the best healer for pvp

they can stun lock you also.

 

out of no disrespect im not mocking or being abusive in anyway about this but,

the only issue i see here is players who cant yet use the class and are struggleing, or a gear issue.

 

smugglers and agents are fine and need nerfing in some area's, they do NOT need buffing

[vimm]

Flashbang is a mez with a 1min CD that breaks on damage. It is not a 'gap-closer'.

 

Assassins have a 30m stun, 30m mez AND Force Sprint AND a talented pull. Big difference.

 

They also have a knockdown that they can use out of stealth, which I would love as an Operative.

[Squatdog_nz]

smugglers/agets need a nerf not a buff

 

smuggs and agents have tons of utility and realy high damage they are able to spam.

 

No.

 

Operatives have good burst from stealth, then mediocre DPS that runs out of steam very quickly. They have absolutely no utility (no gap-closer, no knockback) apart from being able to bust a massive 2.5k heal witha 2.5sec cast time.

 

 

 

they can stealth also which closes the gap on range as they can open up with a knockdown etc

 

No.

 

Operatives can't stealth in combat, unless you mean the 2min vanish CD that is used almost exclusively for escaping.

 

Meanwhile, Marauders can do exactly the same on a 45sec CD.

 

they are also the best healer for pvp

 

Yes, at the moment Operative healers probably are the best PVP healers, as predicted on the PTR.

 

 

they can stun lock you also.

 

No they can't.

[EugeneYap]

smugglers/agets need a nerf not a buff

 

smuggs and agents have tons of utility and realy high damage they are able to spam.

they can stealth also which closes the gap on range as they can open up with a knockdown etc

they are also the best healer for pvp

they can stun lock you also.

 

out of no disrespect im not mocking or being abusive in anyway about this but,

the only issue i see here is players who cant yet use the class and are struggleing, or a gear issue.

 

smugglers and agents are fine and need nerfing in some area's, they do NOT need buffing

^this^

Give this guy a beer:D

Edited May 6, 2012 by EugeneYap

[Darth-Rammstein]

 

No.

 

Operatives can't stealth in combat, unless you mean the 2min vanish CD that is used almost exclusively for escaping.

 

Meanwhile, Marauders can do exactly the same on a 45sec CD.

 

2 minutes talented, 3 minutes if you aren't specd in the middle tree.

[Coronary_Bypass]

smugglers/agets need a nerf not a buff

 

smuggs and agents have tons of utility and realy high damage they are able to spam.

they can stealth also which closes the gap on range as they can open up with a knockdown etc

they are also the best healer for pvp

they can stun lock you also.

 

out of no disrespect im not mocking or being abusive in anyway about this but,

the only issue i see here is players who cant yet use the class and are struggleing, or a gear issue.

 

smugglers and agents are fine and need nerfing in some area's, they do NOT need buffing

 

I have no idea why you think operatives can spam high damage abilties. Hidden strike is on an 8s cooldown and requires stealth.

 

Shiv is on a 6s cooldown and is our only ability (besides Hidden Strike, which again can only be used from stealth) that grants Tactical Advantage.

 

Backstab is also on a 12s cooldown and on top of that requires you to be behind your target (admittedly it isn't hard but still more work than using normal abilities)

 

Lacerate isn't a burst ability and even on crits does average damage that any other class can surpass. Lacerate also requires tactical advantage.

 

Explosive probe is on a 30s cooldown (requires cover) and hits for around 3k crits.

 

The only actual abilities we can spam are Corrosive dart, (2k damage over 15 seconds, 20 energy 1/5 of a full energy bar)snipe, and rifle shot (basic attack). (1.5s cast that does anywhere between 800-2k damage on equal geared players and requires cover) Overload shot is also spammable but does a laughable 600-1200 damage (even on crits) that requires 17 energy. (which with diminishing energy returns quite a lot)

 

Fragmentation grenade 6s

Orbital Strike 1m

I'm not saying operative burst is bad (it isn't though certainly not the best either) but the fact that you think we spam abilities just shows us that you have never played an operative.

 

Are we the best pvp healer? Probably, though we aren't so far ahead of sorcs. (though mercs could use a buff)

 

Also without sneak (1m cooldown) stealth can be seen from up to 17m away which is quite a distance.

 

As for stun locking Hidden strike is a 1.5s knockdown (you heard right a whole single global cooldown!) and debilitate (4s stun). with just those two stuns your character is now at full resolve (half the time just after a hidden strike due to its ridiculous resolve building and other people in the wz). As for flash bang, yes it is amazing but you cant stun lock anyone with it because its a mezz and wears off if you take any damage.

 

As for utility we only have infilitrate and flash bang. (again great aoe mezz) Infiltrate can be useful but requires out of combat and only people within 10 meters (and stay within 10 meters) are cloaked for 15s. Honestly infiltrate is pretty much only useful in the opening of voidstar.

 

And on a final note operatives also only have 1 escape mechanism and that is cloaking screen, a standard vanish ability. It has a 2m cooldown and to be used effectively requires evasion (so you don't instantly pop to any dots on you) and sneak (as said earlier stealth is very easy to spot, I can't tell you how many times I have been immediately grappled back to the enemy). That requires 3 1m + cooldown abilities to either escape or reposition for a better advantage.

[fozbozjimjam]

I have no idea why you think operatives can spam high damage abilties. Hidden strike is on an 8s cooldown and requires stealth.

 

Shiv is on a 6s cooldown and is our only ability (besides Hidden Strike, which again can only be used from stealth) that grants Tactical Advantage.

 

Backstab is also on a 12s cooldown and on top of that requires you to be behind your target (admittedly it isn't hard but still more work than using normal abilities)

 

Lacerate isn't a burst ability and even on crits does average damage that any other class can surpass. Lacerate also requires tactical advantage.

 

Explosive probe is on a 30s cooldown (requires cover) and hits for around 3k crits.

 

The only actual abilities we can spam are Corrosive dart, (2k damage over 15 seconds, 20 energy 1/5 of a full energy bar)snipe, and rifle shot (basic attack). (1.5s cast that does anywhere between 800-2k damage on equal geared players and requires cover) Overload shot is also spammable but does a laughable 600-1200 damage (even on crits) that requires 17 energy. (which with diminishing energy returns quite a lot)

 

Fragmentation grenade 6s

Orbital Strike 1m

I'm not saying operative burst is bad (it isn't though certainly not the best either) but the fact that you think we spam abilities just shows us that you have never played an operative.

 

Are we the best pvp healer? Probably, though we aren't so far ahead of sorcs. (though mercs could use a buff)

 

Also without sneak (1m cooldown) stealth can be seen from up to 17m away which is quite a distance.

 

As for stun locking Hidden strike is a 1.5s knockdown (you heard right a whole single global cooldown!) and debilitate (4s stun). with just those two stuns your character is now at full resolve (half the time just after a hidden strike due to its ridiculous resolve building and other people in the wz). As for flash bang, yes it is amazing but you cant stun lock anyone with it because its a mezz and wears off if you take any damage.

 

As for utility we only have infilitrate and flash bang. (again great aoe mezz) Infiltrate can be useful but requires out of combat and only people within 10 meters (and stay within 10 meters) are cloaked for 15s. Honestly infiltrate is pretty much only useful in the opening of voidstar.

 

And on a final note operatives also only have 1 escape mechanism and that is cloaking screen, a standard vanish ability. It has a 2m cooldown and to be used effectively requires evasion (so you don't instantly pop to any dots on you) and sneak (as said earlier stealth is very easy to spot, I can't tell you how many times I have been immediately grappled back to the enemy). That requires 3 1m + cooldown abilities to either escape or reposition for a better advantage.

 

they need to tone down the intial burst and give you more sustained dps which inturn leads to more problems as your going to be up close getting pwned by aoe and other melee.

 

Ops are in a rock and a hard place atm, you can already take some classes down to 20% who have 1000+ expertise without them being able to do nothing, you put a gap closer in that there not going to be very happy.

 

hole class needs a overhaul imho, they seemingly just buffed op healers to componsate for not knowing what to do to dps trees

[-Rinzler-]

Put the stealth in combat ablity on a 30 second cooldown. I think that would effectivly balance ops.

 

I have a valor rank 72 op in full battlemaster (shelved as of 1.2) and honestly it is a very weak class. It needs something.

 

Currently i am playing a valor 82 shieldtech Powetech and i cant tell you how much infinily more usefull it is in warezones than my op.

 

1. Can guard

2. Can tanut everyone making them do 30% less damage

3. Can crit for 3200 all the time without ever running out of energy. which is better than an op who can crit once or twice before he gasses out. I can crit 3200 + 1200 from my heatblast since its off global cooldown. 4400 dmg and it costs me a SLIVER of heat.

4. Can pull enemies, INSTA KILLING THEM IN HUTBALL Thats INSTA 20K damage.

5. Can force jump every 15 seconds and it interuupts and roots

6. A shield thats infintly better than the ops

7. A hot that healls me, whilst a op has to stop and cast if they are dps specced. Easily interrupted.

8. Oh an Op uses his battle stealth, i instaly toss out a stealth scan and root him.

9. Oh an op gets some luckly crits on me, i carbonite freeze him and jump to his friend 15m away and snare him and run circles arounf him, HE CAN NEVER GET TO ME.

10. Can interrupt every 8 seconds

Sorry OPS need help (Concealment). They are pathetic right now. I wont play mine till bioware makes them right. They are doing it wrong. I 99% of the time have MORE damage at the end of the round than the best OPS and im TANK SPEC. And i have WAY WAY more utility.

Edited May 6, 2012 by -Rinzler-

[AlyxDinas]

ITT: Lots of people that are still scared of Operatives and don't realize that they pose no real threat anymore.

 

Pretty much this. Operatives tickle me unless they're actually smart enough to use some decent internal damage abilities to deal with my armor. And even that's not really an issue.

Edited May 6, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[Sathid]

My Guardian destroys Operatves,i fear them the least of any class.

[Sathid]

Ops/Scoundrels are fine. If you're having trouble killing anything, I strongly advise you roll a sent/marauder like all the other noobs.

 

Que the Imps on Ajutna Pall.

[DweezillKagemand]

I want the giggle.

 

That is all.

[aesirize]

But i smell taht you would be protecting point that snipers have strong melee abilities and should stand toe to toe with any melee class instead of breaking distance.

 

...wait...what? Snipers have strong melee abilities?? i'm just a bystander reading on what is proposed for operatives. my own opinion aside: what strong abilities do Snipers have? Shiv? my tooltip says is does 1.5k dmg (min/max). Debilitate (stun) 500 dmg. that's it. my Leg Shot (root) does more.

ok, back to discussion. sorry for going off topic.

[Maxkardinal]

...wait...what? Snipers have strong melee abilities?? i'm just a bystander reading on what is proposed for operatives. my own opinion aside: what strong abilities do Snipers have? Shiv? my tooltip says is does 1.5k dmg (min/max). Debilitate (stun) 500 dmg. that's it. my Leg Shot (root) does more.

ok, back to discussion. sorry for going off topic.

 

Learn to read.

 

And bother to look at context to avoid humiliating yourself that hard.

[SwordofSodan]

1. You have stealth.

2. Pick your battles carefully.

3. Problem solved.

4. Stun Lock

 

 

(ps)

 

Thanks for admitting your stealth is your gap closer.

So, since you already have a gap closer, tell me why you need another one?

Fixed.

[TonyDragonflame]

Developers actually don't think about unsubbed players with Scoundrels. So, when game dying, I can only laugh on this, cause my Scoundrel was nerfed 3 times. Good luck to Imps lobby of devs.

[wiazabi]

Starting to wonder, alot of people on this forum think that stealth is our gap closer but by that definition / logic being able to simple walk from point a to point b is a gap closer and by that statement all classes got a gap closer so we can now remove ALL leaps , pulls , forcespeed rightt?

[Ravashakk]

You can heal yourself better as hybrid lol. I'm not joking, revitalizers is amazing. At least it felt that way, maybe it was all the root. You definitely dont lose survivability, I can say that for sure. This spec excels at 1v2'ing and the like, that's its strong point! Its weakness is when you want to do nothing but heal others, you're missing ~10% on injection and the aoe.

 

If it wasn't for survival training being in conceal, I'd prob be more likely to give up RN for corrosive grenade and all the buffs for corrosive dart. Wouldn't be a lot of burst, but would be more dmg all around.

[kweassa]

Starting to wonder, alot of people on this forum think that stealth is our gap closer but by that definition / logic being able to simple walk from point a to point b is a gap closer and by that statement all classes got a gap closer so we can now remove ALL leaps , pulls , forcespeed rightt?

 

If you give everyone stealth, yep.