The reason why PVP below 50 is fun...

[Skienz]

Expertise is there to make it so people who like to raid do not dominate PvP. You can PvP effectively without ever raiding which is a good thing for a lot of people.

 

Pre-50 WZs are fun because the WZ have XP gain so nobody can effectively gear twink out a character and be top dog forever. The lvl 49 buff also normalizes the base stats.

 

It is one of the things that they got right, don't mess with it.

[MarkoJinn]

Agreed... Expertise system is supposed to give dedicated (I call them hardcore) players incentive to play on, so that they get the best possible gear but in reality it creates a divide between players and renders the players PVP skills irrelevant.

 

It is very similar to Formula 1 racing where because different teams have different budgets you sort of always know that Ferrari and McLaren are going to be at the top and that some low budget team is stuck in the back even though they might have the next rising star driver in their car. This driver's skill is rendered useless because of the sub par gear/equipment.

 

The reward/incentive should have been some sort of ranking/title system not gear. So if you're a hardcore player your incentive should be to be ranked in top 10 players on server rather than to get the best armor so that in most matches you would brutally obliterate those who don't have the same gear.

[savagepotato]

While I would like to fully agree with you there is another reason that sub 50 pvp is more fun that has been missed.

 

Relative equality. Everyone competes on mostly even ground. Yes I know this is what you were talking about when you talk about the lack of expertise, but there is a bigger problem with expertise that you missed. If you simply take away expertise you have the 800 pound gorilla of high end raid guilds in the game. Remove the expertise pvp gear and the most geared in raid gear simply dominates.

 

At this point, you would need PVP gear of equal quality to endgame raid gear and this is where everyone's nose gets in a joint and the argument begins. It has somehow become the holy gospel that you have to get top end gear by grinding away at it for hours on end, and being able to get one kind of gear from another pursuit makes people get all up in arms.

 

The high end raiders flip out if someone can get their shiny purples without spending months raiding their endgame content. The pure PVP people honestly don't care either way I don't think, but the community is always divided on this issue.

 

I think the pvp and pve gear should have roughly the same stats, so in effect, I agree with you. Ditch expertise. Additionally the difference between recruit gear and war hero gear should be maximum 5% The point of PVP should be the competition not acquisition of gear.

 

The way that things should be differentiated is in appearance. Each gear set should provide a compelling reason to want to get it for how good and unique it looks.

[exphryl]

"EXPERTISE BAD! I CAN'T COMPETE AT 50"

 

Instead I'd rather compete at 49 with a full arsenal of abilities and talents that these other lowbies haven't gotten yet. Because that's so much more balanced.

[MarkoJinn]

While I would like to fully agree with you there is another reason that sub 50 pvp is more fun that has been missed.

 

Relative equality. Everyone competes on mostly even ground. Yes I know this is what you were talking about when you talk about the lack of expertise, but there is a bigger problem with expertise that you missed. If you simply take away expertise you have the 800 pound gorilla of high end raid guilds in the game. Remove the expertise pvp gear and the most geared in raid gear simply dominates.

 

At this point, you would need PVP gear of equal quality to endgame raid gear and this is where everyone's nose gets in a joint and the argument begins. It has somehow become the holy gospel that you have to get top end gear by grinding away at it for hours on end, and being able to get one kind of gear from another pursuit makes people get all up in arms.

 

The high end raiders flip out if someone can get their shiny purples without spending months raiding their endgame content. The pure PVP people honestly don't care either way I don't think, but the community is always divided on this issue.

 

I think the pvp and pve gear should have roughly the same stats, so in effect, I agree with you. Ditch expertise. Additionally the difference between recruit gear and war hero gear should be maximum 5% The point of PVP should be the competition not acquisition of gear.

 

The way that things should be differentiated is in appearance. Each gear set should provide a compelling reason to want to get it for how good and unique it looks.

 

Yup I completely agree with you...

[cycao]

"EXPERTISE BAD! I CAN'T COMPETE AT 50"

 

Instead I'd rather compete at 49 with a full arsenal of abilities and talents that these other lowbies haven't gotten yet. Because that's so much more balanced.

 

Yeah thats all I hear. I really enjoy it and get a good larf when they say they want to turn off xp so they dont reach 50.

[Mindsplitter]

maybe they should add an option to stop xp gains, so we can lock ourselves at 49 and stay in that bracket.

 

Rift did that. So it's not like it can't be done. Obviously, they developed the game in a vacuum or they would never had added such a failed mechanic as expertise to the game. Blizzard already stated that this was a failure in their PvP, but Bioware only took from the game not from the postmortem feedback from the development team.

 

They could have stacked more endurance to separate PvP items from Raid PvE items, but they choose the easy and destabilizing 'special' pvp stat. This has led to a TTK of about 6 seconds. No more strategy, tanking, guarding, healing. Just pure burst damage or your farm fodder.

 

So to sum up: Roll a Fotm, get facerolled a lot to gear up, spec to do the most burst dmg possible with the least effort, and viola, you to can PvP in the level 50 bracket.

 

Or you can do this another way: Guild Wars 2 open beta is the weekend. Time to try something different. There is only an upside to this, can't do a worse job then the warhammer team bioware has de-developing PvP at the moment.

[ekwalizer]

Having levelled several toons now, I've experienced PVP on many different levels, classes and WZ's. For the most part, almost everyone agrees that PVP below level 50 is far more engaging than at level 50.

 

Now, as a curious guy, I wondered why that is. After asking around and from my own experiences it really comes down to one thing-- the expertise statistic.

 

This last patch they put in diminishing returns for expertise, and no wonder. People that were stacked to obscene levels would destroy a new 50 in a WZ. As a result, fresh level 50's would play a few WZ's, get hammered, and never run them again. Left to nothing but raiding without a proper LFG tool, and world PVP being almost non-existent, people simply quit the game and said there's nothing to do.

 

Yet, these were the same people that were in WZ's constantly levelling up and loved to PVP.

 

The problem is expertise-- there doesn't seem to be any reason for it except to reward higher levels of valor or hardcore PVP people, or to punish those who want to PVP at high levels without working the WZ system. Conversely, it also punishes the PVP player who wants to raid on occasion--- now that player must raid for weeks to get endgame gear.

 

The expertise system is inherently flawed , since it divides the player base and makes content mutually exclusive to gear rather than play-style. The longest lasting MMO games do not discern between the PVE and PVP player but makes them part of the same community. The expertise stat is an artificial constraint and perhaps is designed to lengthen the game experience for players, rather than letting players choose their own route to top end gear.

 

I believe if they eliminated this statistic, you would see more people PVP'ing and in turn make the game more interesting to both aspects of gameplay. It would also make PVP at 50 as fun as it was moving up.

 

The *ONLY* way that level 50 PvP without expertise would work is if all end game tiered gear was mirrored. IE rather than Recruit gear you could buy Columni with credits from the pvp vendor (or Rakata with WZ comms and Campaign with RWZ comms). If there was no gear progression for PvP, then those who primarily raid would come into PvP with a gear advantage over those that never PvE.

[Feztonio]

maybe i'm awsome or maybe you stink, but even at lvl 11 or 12 i can kill well and help win wz's in the 1-49 bracket. i've got like 2 dozen alts on various servers and whether i'm in all greens or all purple/orange, i'm still quite able to play well and crush regardless.

 

pre-50 wz's are fun because everyone is more or less on equal footing with the -to 49 buff and without expertise. it's fun because everyone is pretty much equal (minus more skills - but really, how many skills that you get are actually in a rotation?) ie.. as a sage for instance, how many skills do they use besides the big rock, and the slowing little barrage of rocks lolz. lvl 10 sages can do the same 2 spammable attacks a lvl 49 sage can.

[knottedbyfear]

maybe i'm awsome or maybe you stink, but even at lvl 11 or 12 i can kill well and help win wz's in the 1-49 bracket. i've got like 2 dozen alts on various servers and whether i'm in all greens or all purple/orange, i'm still quite able to play well and crush regardless.

 

pre-50 wz's are fun because everyone is more or less on equal footing with the -to 49 buff and without expertise. it's fun because everyone is pretty much equal (minus more skills - but really, how many skills that you get are actually in a rotation?) ie.. as a sage for instance, how many skills do they use besides the big rock, and the slowing little barrage of rocks lolz. lvl 10 sages can do the same 2 spammable attacks a lvl 49 sage can.

 

I find the lower bracket fun too, and have basically completely bowed out of 50 pvp for the time being. There are a couple classes/specs that are pretty rough to play successfully in lower bracket pvp (lethality op, anyone?), but almost everything else I have run is quite viable. I usually join the fray after running the first instance for gear (BT, Esseles).

 

50 pvp is some sort of unbalanced, noncompetitive grind-fest for gear. I think it is what happens to PvP when you come at PvP from a raider's perspective; raider's raid for gear upgrades. True Pvp'ers fight for the adrenaline rush of true competition (putting someone of equal skill down for a dirt-nap). I wish they would use the bolster concept in all WZs, and eliminate the only stat which isn't bolstered (expertise). PvP for PvP's sake is really where it is at for me, and once it becomes something about the gear, it becomes something completely different.

 

If this game had kept the flavor of the planet Voss in the couple of months after release, it would have been a beautiful thing indeed: world pvp at it's best, quest gankers, common quest areas between factions, very few aggressive guards... Oh well, BW's missed opportunity I guess.

Edited April 27, 2012 by knottedbyfear

[knottedbyfear]

The *ONLY* way that level 50 PvP without expertise would work is if all end game tiered gear was mirrored. IE rather than Recruit gear you could buy Columni with credits from the pvp vendor (or Rakata with WZ comms and Campaign with RWZ comms). If there was no gear progression for PvP, then those who primarily raid would come into PvP with a gear advantage over those that never PvE.

 

No, not the only way. If they would normalize or bolster all gear for PvP and instantly people can wear whatever they want in there.

[aboynamedsue]

10-49 pvp is way more fun. Especially now that you get sprint right away. Prior to 1.2 10-13 was pretty sucky since you couldn't keep up but now I find all levels 10-49 a lot of fun for all the classes I have. My gear lags behind my level by 5 - 10 levels and yet I don't feel any difference. Getting the latest gear is not required unlike it is a 50. In the 10-49 I don't get the sense that some classes are crazy OP like I do in the 50 bracket.

[TheronFett]

The reason why PvP in the 1-49 bracket is more fun? Easy. No expertise.

 

/thread

[RefugeASSASSIN]

Now, as a curious guy, I wondered why that is. After asking around and from my own experiences it really comes down to one thing-- the expertise statistic.

 

This is not the problem.

People that were stacked to obscene levels would destroy a new 50 in a WZ. As a result, fresh level 50's would play a few WZ's, get hammered, and never run them again.

 

THIS is the problem. No one can take an *** whooping anymore. They go in as a fresh 50 with PVE gear, get rolled then pout and quit. They cant deal with the fact they need to change their tactics and stop trying to be a hero for the team and instead become a support.

 

I put it to you this way:

 

I dont expect to be able to Finish Karagga's palace on hard mode as a fresh 50 with no gear, so why should I expect to do the same thing with PVP? People need incentive to do something, period. If there was nothing for you to level for post 50 the game would get even more boring to engame players then it is already.

 

That being said, could they just remove expertise and change the base stats on the different armors? Sure but ultimately your going to have the same problem: The haves vs the Have nots.

 

The reason bolster is in the game pre-50 to begin with is because the time it takes you to go from 10-49 is much greater then going from fresh 50 PVP gear to Battlemaster. So its making it so that your level 10 can be somewhat viable and can participate right off the bat without having to wait 20 levels to play.

Edited April 27, 2012 by RefugeASSASSIN

[Thegriss]

Many of my guild mates and myself love pre 50 pvp its far more balance that 50 pvp. Generally we level toons in sub 50 pvp and when that toon hits 50 he never see's a WZ again.

[Khoraji]

If you think scoreboard actually holds any meaning, you pretty much owned yourself.

 

Spoken like someone who is terrible at everything but mindlessly running at objectives.

[jamesaff]

maybe they should add an option to stop xp gains, so we can lock ourselves at 49 and stay in that bracket.

 

This.

[HoosierDuke]

I agree with you. I too reroll just to experience pre-50 warzones again.

 

The reason for expertise is so that it separates the grind for PvP gear and PvE (operation) gear. It makes it so both parts of the post 50 game are more separated.

 

I see their reasoning, but it does make it less fun, less about skill, less about building your character and less about knowing your class.

 

Good lord, 10-49 is much the same, just a different skin....

 

1. Buy moddable gear

2. Upgrade mods to blue or better every chance you get

3. Pwn face unlike anything you can do in the 50 wz's

 

Bolster as the great equializer here? LOL Bolster only magnifies the gear gap.

 

Yeah I see why folks like the 10-49 bracket .... little to no effort needed for "god" mode ... lol

[Khoraji]

This.

 

People that want to stop XP at 49 just want to be able to own noobs for forever.

 

Stop being a ***** and PvP in the only bracket that matters, 50.

[HoosierDuke]

instead i'd rather compete at 49 with a full arsenal of abilities and talents that these other lowbies haven't gotten yet. Because that's so much more balanced.

 

.qft.

[trevah]

Really? I think it's because people below lvl50 have a tendency to totally suck, which makes the more skilled and generally more vocal/devoted players feel that it's more fun. Because they're better than 90% of the people in there.

 

Once you hit 50, you have to actually L2P or die. It's really tough. I cry about it sometimes.

[Razot]

A combination of Expertise with other stat increases then you just throw in premades vrs pugs and you have system of pure fail..

Baseline the expertise stat..

 

LOL-Gabe

Edited April 27, 2012 by Razot

[Khoraji]

A combination of Expertise with other stat increases then you just throw in premades vrs pugs and you have system of pure fail..

 

LOL-Gabe

 

^carebear

 

Pre-mades vs pugs isnt a problem for some of the most popular games ever created.

[Razot]

^carebear

 

Pre-mades vs pugs isnt a problem for some of the most popular games ever created.

 

What like WoW?

Don't play that crap, i stay around EVE so please don't use that carebear term since i think you have no real understanding real pvp..

[Daiyukie]

I've had more fun leveling my Shadow from 10-13 in PVP than I do playing my 50 Scoundrel. Then again, it's frustrating that there are so many bads in below-50 Warzones. At least at 50 people know what the objectives are and how to achieve them, for the most part. Obviously if someone's a moron in 1-49, you'll soon see them being a moron in 50 queues and they will probably have terrible gear to boot.

 

Still, I find hitting 3k crits whenever I want on my Shadow quite fun. I just can't wait for Force Speed =D