Mistaking OP classes for good players.

[Niil]

Well, my madness sorc. is almost always top in medals/damage/kills/KB's/fewest deaths and sometimes even healing (depending on how often I'm getting primed while my bubble is up). Even with all the nerfs (and steath-nerfs, mind you) that came from 1.2. Only time I've seen a Marauder outperform me in a WZ is when they've had a dedicated healer(s) coupled with a dedicated guard(s) so they have 0 deaths - and they still don't usually out-damage me. Please, I invite you to start QQ'ing about sorcerers again if I'm still able to do this. Also, Mercs/Commandos really don't need to say anything right now since they're still capable of dishing out 5-6k damage to equally geared players with their HSM/Demo Round and tracer missile is still just as effective as ever to their teammates. A good arsenal merc is still actually very difficult to out-dps - most of the good players have adapted to the changes and are making them perform just as well (if not better) post 1.2.

 

Damage output isn't a metric you can use to determine whether someone outperforms another person. I can sit on my madness sorc all day and do a ton of damage. Melee typically leave me alone in favor of easier to kill targets due to the auto root on dot, knockback, speed, and self bubble, unless I get gibbed by several at once. Smart positioning can minimize that. But the damage done total is insignificant when a vast majority of the damage a madness sorc can put out in pvp is via trivial dot ticks spread across numerous opponents. There's no chance in hell as madness that you're going to burn someone in 3-5 globals like marauders do (to be fair, it's not just marauders). The only source of big burst that is king in pvp was removed when they took Chain Lightning off Wrath procs. But ultimately, if you find it fun and feel that you're performing to an acceptable level, good for you. I just don't see that as effective in taking objectives and actually winning warzones. It contributes, but not as much as classes that have on demand burst. How potent an impact a particular AC has in a given warzone is the metric I use to determine whether or not the game is balanced. If you're talking Huttball and you're constantly disregarding damage output and focusing on getting the ball carrier to the goal line, then you've got a point. But that's 1 of 4 warzones, wherein the other 3 a madness sorc is not as valuable as other AC's to me.

 

im not really sure what the joke is.

should i change it to intelligent people that mean it? i figured that was a given...

 

You will see a bunch of powertechs, tank assassins, jugs, marauders, and possibly operative healers doing that

so basically what your saying here is that 5 out of 8 different class's have some sort of advantage over other class's. how do u not see some balance in that?

the game is not as bad as people say it is. people just dont know where the OP starts and the player skill ends.

 

I think the pertinent question is, how do you see that as balanced? So you're saying 5 classes in the game out of 8 are worth playing in pvp as they trivially trump the other 3. Skill is, by far, the least important factor when it comes to pvp engagements nowadays. The first factor is AC. The second factor is gear. The third is skill. I'd go so far as to say that game balance is ultimately failing when skill is not the predominant factor that determines the outcome of any given engagement. That is absolutely not the case today.

[Astarica]

I've never seen anyone claim Deception Assassin is overpowered, even when played by the guys who were Deception before they converted to Tankasins.

 

So were those guys just suddenly become better when they respeced into Darkness?

Edited April 23, 2012 by Astarica

[RaugMoss]

Someone hasn't figured out how to beat a juggernaut :/ it's ok, I admitted that I can't beat snipers. And you just said a rage juggernaut can do more damage than ah marauder? And that you have an easier time kiting one? (psssst. We have almost all the same gap closers.) nice try though. Figure out the strat before throwing the OP flag.

 

Annihilation Marauders line up dots, they do not dish out high crits like a rage juggernaut and kill you, it takes TIME for a marauder to kill you. I'm not having a try at anything. Pre 1.2, Juggernauts were killable. Post 1.2, they are either killing you so fast, you cannot damage them enough, or they just don't die and kill you in the process.

 

And mind you, I can kill bad juggernauts, I play with them like my toys and have still 60% hp remaining. But a good one, just uses whatever rage / stacks he have generated on a nearby player to burst down my ***, and there is absolutely no defense from that. U get locked down for 3 seconds in a charge (game delay included) then u get smashed, then some minor damage then push then charge then again and finally a vicious throw, ur dead. What do I do in these scenarios? I do not look at the screen like an idiot, I slow, root, do damage, sometimes even get close to killing them, they have 5k HP remaining or so at the end of fights generally. But no matter what I have tried, if that juggernaut pops all cds on me, I die insanely quick, and I find it futile really, to resist. Better save ur cds and come back to kill him when he has none. But pvp shouldn't be like this, you shouldn't die to classes in under 10 seconds.

 

And who am I? I'm a conqueror sorcerer, who thinks that the nerfs, except the force lightning damage/crit nerf was justified. (Especially the double-dipping was ridiculous)

 

AND I think that the sorcerers are pretty normal at the moment. The burst classes should have a bit of restraint though, like was done for operatives. However, dps juggernauts with soresu form for mitigation, or immortals with dps gear have more-than justified damage for their utility or more-than justified survivability for the damage they do. This is really apparent. I also don't have fun anymore from being killed that quick.

 

If you aren't killing sorcerers as a rage juggernaut in 5 seconds, maybe 6 or 7 (they sometimes sprint at the last second when you press vicious throw and it takes time for that lightsaber to reach us for 4k damage, lol) ur not stacking power high enough, lacking gear or dpsing mentality. Please don't tell me I didn't figure out how to beat them, every sorcerer in our server, several other conqueror/warHero ones too, are playing less and less everyday because of the fact that some of the conqueror juggernauts that we have played against before 1.2 and was fine against, eat us for breakfast nowadays.

Edited April 23, 2012 by RaugMoss

[Gorghte]

As a scrapper scoundrel, I would doubt anyone would call me overpowered. However, I do not see a huge balance problem in the game. I can assist in objectives both offensively and defensively and can work on various levels based on the teams needs.

 

I completely agree with the original poster. Of course things will be tweaked as they don't meet the targets/expectations of Bioware and the players. Just enjoy.

[Caelrie]

You can expect to see yourself missing your Operative/Scoundrel when you're on your marauder once you've been thoroughly trounced by a good ops/scound a few times.

That doesn't happen.

[bglodt]

Ok here are my 2 cents. Yes some classes are better than others in 1v1. Yes 2 of them are also significantly better than the other 6 when it's 2v1. I also agree that these classes seem to not have a counter class, (outside of each other) though some argue that snipers are their counters. I actually find that funny because as vanguard, when I'm either in tactics or assault spec, I tend to destroy most snipers. This part, the rock/paper/scissors mechanic I feel works in most instances.... Though I will admit not all trees in every AC is PvP viable... At all and that's unfortunate. However, I believe every AC has at least one build, or one tree that IS pvp viable, whether it brings Utility or straight damage, and in that regard I think the game is balanced. That said no class should be "dynamite" and decimate "rock, paper, and scissors". Are there two specific builds in two ACs that are like this... To some extent yes. But that does not mean the entire AC is OP. Equinox on Kellers Void plays a full infiltration shadow. He had great skills, great situational awareness, knows his class well, manages cooldowns extremely well, and has a firm grasp of the abilities of other classes. He can 1v1 nearly anyone and does insane burst, He is not a tankassin. However when he destroys people, and then they fight a Tankassin who is really difficult to kill, they say the whole AC is overpowered or tankassin are OP, not knowing he is not a tankassin. Do I lose to tankassins 1v1 on my vanguard? All the time,.. But their damage isn't OP. in fact if it's a straight damage race, I would win everytime. But they have great mitigation, so I lose. Is that OP? Nah. Do I think maras are OP... Only because they damage and mitigation abilities are BOTH really good. Heck they have better PvP mitigation than I do in full shield spec! But in general does the class need a huge nerf? Nope. Some minor changes to bring them inline might be nice though.

 

Now about people saying AC and gear is more of a factor than skill.... That is only true when player skills are relatively close. There are some maras and sins I just dominate but there are others that just dominate me. If the ACs were that OP I shouldn't be able to ever kill one but I do. Now, I am pretty sure some of my losses come from people I am actually "better" than, a good proportion comes from me getting outplayed. That's not OP. I would argue that if you lose to every single player of a certain AC then the problem maybe with your play style. I'm not saying L2P, I'm saying perhaps your play style lends itself to fighting a different player style. Do enjoy constantly be targeted and destroyed by the same few player? No. But I understand that their class typically beats mine, and I understand that if they don't target me I'll either tie up or kill thei healer or wreck their buddies.

 

Skill is still extremely important in this game. I have gotten outplayed by people in worse gear than me playing a standard class and build that I typically do well against... And I've beaten better geared players with FOTM "OP" builds.

 

Another discrepancy that I see has to do with new players and PUGs. If you are new to 50, and get in a wz que rotation against the elite of the other faction running in a premade... You are going to get clobbered. It will be the same people in the same ACs wrecking you, and it is easy to say that the class is OP. When you by chance get in a que with a premade on your side, you'll see those same OP people dieing alot more and it won't seem so bad. Also if you are on a server known for its pvp you can be sure it's probably populated by fairly skilled pvpers. If you are not at that caliber you will be destroyed... No matter what AC you are no matter how much gear you have. On my server KV the pubs usually (3-4/10) lose. But there are good pub players too. However there are enough casual and average players that it reasonably offers fairly good competition 7-8 matches out of 10. That said, if I'm pugging and have bern losing to the same premade... I try to que dodge or just do pve....I don't quit matches I just wait 10 minutes till I que again.

 

I'm summary, yes some classes are better. Balance is still fairly good, and skill is still important.

 

 

Thank you!

[bennyhana]

Annihilation Marauders line up dots, they do not dish out high crits like a rage juggernaut and kill you, it takes TIME for a marauder to kill you. I'm not having a try at anything. Pre 1.2, Juggernauts were killable. Post 1.2, they are either killing you so fast, you cannot damage them enough, or they just don't die and kill you in the process.

 

And mind you, I can kill bad juggernauts, I play with them like my toys and have still 60% hp remaining. But a good one, just uses whatever rage / stacks he have generated on a nearby player to burst down my ***, and there is absolutely no defense from that. U get locked down for 3 seconds in a charge (game delay included) then u get smashed, then some minor damage then push then charge then again and finally a vicious throw, ur dead. What do I do in these scenarios? I do not look at the screen like an idiot, I slow, root, do damage, sometimes even get close to killing them, they have 5k HP remaining or so at the end of fights generally. But no matter what I have tried, if that juggernaut pops all cds on me, I die insanely quick, and I find it futile really, to resist. Better save ur cds and come back to kill him when he has none. But pvp shouldn't be like this, you shouldn't die to classes in under 10 seconds.

 

And who am I? I'm a conqueror sorcerer, who thinks that the nerfs, except the force lightning damage/crit nerf was justified. (Especially the double-dipping was ridiculous)

 

So you kill players worse than you, and lose to players better than you. It's not the spec it's the person. You actually just admitted it yourself.

[dufox]

I think the pertinent question is, how do you see that as balanced? So you're saying 5 classes in the game out of 8 are worth playing in pvp as they trivially trump the other 3. Skill is, by far, the least important factor when it comes to pvp engagements nowadays. The first factor is AC. The second factor is gear. The third is skill. I'd go so far as to say that game balance is ultimately failing when skill is not the predominant factor that determines the outcome of any given engagement. That is absolutely not the case today.

 

5 classes being OP does not make 3 classes useless.

is this how it should be? no

is it somewhat balanced yes. (keyword being somewhat) it is far from perfect.

ill take a smart fresh 50 in my group over an OP decked out warhero that doesnt when to stop attacking and when to start stalling any day of the week.

 

as far as guardians 3 shotting people, what do you expect to happen when you have someone who uses the force leap damage boost with a relic and adrenal then uses his hardest hit (which hits 3 times) then 2 finishers while you dont pop any defensive cooldowns?

[Kalarie]

Put it simply, the game is pretty damn balanced in pvp. Start getting used to the fact that some people are better at playing this game than you are.

 

Edit: Just to prove a point, since this thread started, almost all classes have been claimed to be "OP".

 

+1

 

I don't post much here, but I wanted to agree with you. I play a Sorc healer, and have since the beta. It's all I do. I've never felt UP or OP (unless you brought your pve gear to the WZ...)

 

Over time I"ve noticed these truths.

 

Opers that get the drop on me can kill me while I'm stunned. Very hard to survive them, have to have CDs up.

 

Other Melee can get in my face and either shut me down or at least reduce me to healing myself. Sometimes I do good and stay up for 20-30 secs to get help, other times i have no CDs or mess up and go down quickly.

 

I call those classes my hard counters as they seem built to take healers out of their element.

 

However, the reason I don't feel UP against them is that if I catch the Oper in the open, I can lock them up and take them out (healer stay in groups 99% of the time fyi so i'm almost never trying to solo anyone in a WZ). If one of those melee show up and my teammates help in some way, any way, a guard, a peel, something, I can do more than just keep myself up. All it takes is one other person to throw a little something my way, and what I feel is my hard counters will become beatable.

 

That is why I feel balanced and agree with the Original Poster. It's 99% player skill that leads to qq of UP vrs OP classes. Being that WZs require a team to interact, never expect 1v1 to be 'balanced' against all classes. You have to have counters to make team WZs dynamic. Know your role and Play your role as best you can and win as a team.

[Niil]

5 classes being OP does not make 3 classes useless.

is this how it should be? no

is it somewhat balanced yes. (keyword being somewhat) it is far from perfect.

ill take a smart fresh 50 in my group over an OP decked out warhero that doesnt when to stop attacking and when to start stalling any day of the week.

 

as far as guardians 3 shotting people, what do you expect to happen when you have someone who uses the force leap damage boost with a relic and adrenal then uses his hardest hit (which hits 3 times) then 2 finishers while you dont pop any defensive cooldowns?

 

If I have a choice between 8 options, and of those 8, 5 are just outright better than the other 3, I'm going to choose one of the 5 viable options and disregard the rest. You can say they aren't useless, I say they are. It's an opinion you're not required to share.

 

It either is, or isn't balanced. If you choose to see it as "somewhat balanced" and that's good enough for you, great. It is not good enough for me. The disparity is too large.

 

As far as guardians 3 shotting people, I don't think 3 shotting should even be possible, regardless of what cooldowns anyone involved pops. Combat should not devolve to who can pop the most cooldowns and consumables. There's no skill in that. Not everyone has the same number of cooldowns. Not everyone's cooldowns are the same relative strength. To me, it doesn't matter what class or spec we're talking about here, whether it's guardians or gunslingers.

[Visue]

Before 1.2, SWTOR's PvP balance was among the best of any MMO I had every played. Some of the specs weren't ideal, but the game was balanced well.

 

Now, it reminds me of a time when people liked to refer to WoW as "World of Meleecraft." There are a few classes who consistently demonstrate higher PvP performance than others.

[Torcer]

I think TOR has about 1.5 M subs (+ -), .

 

I doubt it - at least the active numbers are not that high - too many servers are wastelands.

 

As to the OP, I rarely complain about FOTM, but 1.2 made changes across the board that made PvP significantly less fun than it used to be.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Torcer

[Xinika]

I play an overpowered class and I have absolutely no skill.

 

 

That was sarcasm btw.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Trineda
removed space-spam

[Tenthletter]

Most of what you are seeing is that people have no clue how to counter marauders, yourself included it seems.

 

I can help with that.

 

If they're glowing Red (Blue for Sents) then you should be CCing or kiting them, not hitting them or standing in melee range of them.

 

The game literally screams at you "HAY GAIS CC, ME NAO!" and people still don't do it.

[Blloodbane]

I can help with that.

 

If they're glowing Red (Blue for Sents) then you should be CCing or kiting them, not hitting them or standing in melee range of them.

 

The game literally screams at you "HAY GAIS CC, ME NAO!" and people still don't do it.

 

^^^this

 

LOL, when I see a sent mara does this... I either Force Choke (if no resolve filled), Deadly Throw or Snare them and get the eff away and kill another target, especially if I see a healer near by...

 

and ravage is very easy to recognize too and counter...

[Tenthletter]

exactly, I don't get these guys, it's beyond obvious.

 

I'm full BM GS....me and another GS and a Sage(DPS)..roll on the east turret guarded by only 1 JUG

 

we can not CC him, I'm getting off my full rotation and he's not taking any dmg, almost like he's healing himself, he's pushing people all over the place jumping and hacking away, he takes out the sorce still with Full HP,,,we are unloading on him, popping relics and Nothing. By the time I finally kit him for ANYTHING, am at 50% HP and other GS even less. The sorce comes running back and we FINALLY start dmging this JUG, but just as we try to cap the turret.......an Assain comes and takes out the other GS and I am trying my best to leg shot, slow, and DPS this SIN..but to no avail. He kills the Sage, not that it would have mattered.....THE JUG comes running back up and I'm dead in less than a sec.

 

2 GS very high DPS we are always on top, don't know the sage....but a Tank with no healer is supposed to mitigate how much exactly? i was hitting the HELL out of Him....but his HP would not move at all, it would just go up.

 

and there were NO healers I am sure. It took him less than 6 secs to dispatch the Sage.

 

NOw I'm sure he has CD that mitgate ALL DMG for like 20 secs or something......but why can he hit so Damn hard if you can't hit him for Crap?

 

Skill in CDs? Invincibility? You only have a small window to Cap STuff.....WTH are these skills doing in PvP?

 

You were likely missing, which is why his HP never dropped, and why he went for the Sage first, as it was the only true threat to him. In Defense gear, he's very strong against anyone that relies on normal hits or Physical damage hits (non Tech/Force). Accuracy is actually very good for GS/Sniper against Tanks. Stack more Accuracy to be a tank killer and combat their defense gear.

 

I find Juggs/Guardians are by far the most annoying targets for me in PVP (Main Sentinel, Alt Sage). They take forever to kill and have tons of CC, especially as Tank spec in Tank gear. With that long Time To Kill, he can easily call for backup when defending nodes, and then use Taunts when backup does finally come to hurt your damage even more, which is exactly what happened to you.

[AzKnc]

Put it simply, the game is pretty damn balanced in pvp.

 

Credibility: -99999999999999.

[dufox]

If I have a choice between 8 options, and of those 8, 5 are just outright better than the other 3, I'm going to choose one of the 5 viable options and disregard the rest. You can say they aren't useless, I say they are. It's an opinion you're not required to share.

 

It either is, or isn't balanced. If you choose to see it as "somewhat balanced" and that's good enough for you, great. It is not good enough for me. The disparity is too large.

 

As far as guardians 3 shotting people, I don't think 3 shotting should even be possible, regardless of what cooldowns anyone involved pops. Combat should not devolve to who can pop the most cooldowns and consumables. There's no skill in that. Not everyone has the same number of cooldowns. Not everyone's cooldowns are the same relative strength. To me, it doesn't matter what class or spec we're talking about here, whether it's guardians or gunslingers.

 

then reroll a new char every time a new patch comes out.

if you dont want my opinion stop quoting me.

if you choose between extremes you will always find something to complain about.

there u go sharing your opinion that ur not required to share...

[bennyhana]

Credibility: -99999999999999.

 

Great counter argument, credibility:-99999999999999999999

[Cervontez]

I rarely post anything in the forums but the OP hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure if it was the Star Wars name but it seems like for the bulk of the people playing, this is their first MMO. Its almost comical sometimes going up against some of these people. And the QQing is the worst i have seen.

 

IMO this game is fairly balanced and i'm sure some minor tweaks are needed (Ops/Scoundrels need some love). People need to watch some videos or do some research before coming on these forums and polluting them with lies to mask their ability to counter. I have never played a game where the term L2P held so true like this one. Play the game, learn what classes do what and stop coming here and diluting the pvp forum with "NERF OP" and keep it a forum to go over what REALLY needs to be fixed i.e. world pvp, warzones and the Ilum fiasco.

[Niil]

then reroll a new char every time a new patch comes out.

if you dont want my opinion stop quoting me.

if you choose between extremes you will always find something to complain about.

there u go sharing your opinion that ur not required to share...

 

I have several 50's right now. I don't need to reroll. I'm also not looking at the game through the tinted glasses of 1 AC and calling the game balanced. I can see it's not because I play regularly on 4 different characters, 3 of which are 50. One of them happens to be a marauder. Perhaps your social skills are lacking so I'll explain the rest in a little more detail. We're sharing our opinions. At some point we have to recognize that our opinions are different and that's about as far as that particular segment of the conversation goes. We're not going to convince each other that our particular opinions are right. I understood your point about balance. I was just sharing that I disagree with it. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said that if you see it that way, good for you. That means you're enjoying the game, or in this case, a particular subsection of the game. I don't see that as a bad thing. And if you're not interested in my opinion, don't bother responding to me. You can pass it up without hitting "reply" it's okay.

[wiazabi]

Funny, since the forum community seems to think marauders are harder to play than operatives.

 

Just a simple thing as not having to worry about my energy as sentinel is enough for me to say its alot easier to play than my scoundrel scrapper and besides that there is ofc upperhand , positional styles , pugnancy , need an actual target for my flashbang unlike awe.

 

Before i played mine i was actually in the belief it was harder but meh, then again the classes are really different so i wouldnt compare the 2 at all since both should fill their own uniqe role.

[DarkHelsing]

Let me start by saying I'm a rage spec almost fully bm geared juggernaut. With that being said I have had plenty of good games AND plenty of bad ones. Games where I'm top dps with the most medals and not so top dps with an average amount of medals... When I get beat by a certain class a few times I don't immediately assume that certain class is op, I was simply outplayed.

 

I was a tank spec juggernaut before and after getting my *** handed to me on many occasions, I came on here and qq'ed like everyone else that does after a few bad games. After doing some research I found that people have succeeded very well with the immortal spec. I took their advice, tried it, and just couldn't figure it out. So I switched back to rage, the spec that I had pretty much been from lvl 1, so you could say I'm pretty familiar with that particular build.

 

That all being said, I get beat by the people with the same class as me, same spec as me. I get beat by every other class in the game. But I also beat every class in the game. You catch me off guard, you have your cool downs and I don't, chances are you win. Same goes for me, catching you off guard when I have my cool downs and you don't.

 

So many posts here claiming all these "op" classes when people just can't handle the fact that well... That guy/girl just simply outplayed you. They assume that because they are fully geared, they shouldn't get beat down just like the rest of the people in the warzone.

 

Put it simply, the game is pretty damn balanced in pvp. Start getting used to the fact that some people are better at playing this game than you are.

 

Edit: Just to prove a point, since this thread started, almost all classes have been claimed to be "OP".

 

Depends on who you are talking to.

 

Some people do a lot of testing within a circle of players. Some people do a lot of number crunching. Some people pay attention to enemies they face often. Some people cry wolf.

 

All the logical elements to the game, the math, the numbers, the facts, easily indicate that Patch 1.2 has induced the worst class imbalance since the game began.

 

But it's all relative, because what kind of balance does one player mean versus another player. Is 1v1 balance, is 2v2 balance, is 1v2 balance, is team utility balance, etc.

 

A good player can play any class well, but that doesn't mean the class is without fault because a good player rolled a bad player.

[dufox]

I have several 50's right now. I don't need to reroll. I'm also not looking at the game through the tinted glasses of 1 AC and calling the game balanced. I can see it's not because I play regularly on 4 different characters, 3 of which are 50. One of them happens to be a marauder. Perhaps your social skills are lacking so I'll explain the rest in a little more detail. We're sharing our opinions. At some point we have to recognize that our opinions are different and that's about as far as that particular segment of the conversation goes. We're not going to convince each other that our particular opinions are right.I understood your point about balance. I was just sharing that I disagree with it. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said that if you see it that way, good for you. That means you're enjoying the game, or in this case, a particular subsection of the game. I don't see that as a bad thing. And if you're not interested in my opinion, don't bother responding to me. You can pass it up without hitting "reply" it's okay.

 

or perhaps you should learn to get your point across without tossing in little insults.

you try to act mature when your casting all the blame for this ignorant conversation my way.

here is a tip. when your trying to sound logical it helps if you don't contradict yourself.

now we are just being idiots trying to get the last word.

 

ps your opinion is stupid. i dare you not to reply^^

[XenonParsec]

I like how suddenly the gaming gods have given every bh/trooper and sent/mara "skill" at the game after 1.2.

 

Conversely, those same gaming gods cursed every dps sorc/sage. The game is so balanced according to the OP, I'm puzzled how all these BH's and Mara suddenly learned to play the game, in the space of one patch. It's amazing. Meanwhile, I've become a baddie, as my dps used to smoke bh merc/pt and mara dps, but no longer.

 

All the teams stacking PT and Maras? That's totally a result of skill and teamwork, having nothing to do with this perfectly balanced game. The sudden disappearance of every third sage/sorc on servers is really all about bads leaving the game, they obviously didn't "adapt."

 

I'm sure glad there are posts like the OPs to help clear things up.