Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.

[Sugarray]

Except what he said was accurate.

 

Except that it wasn't.

[ChazDoit]

Tanking was half dead pre 1.2, now is completely dead. Also de reduction of TTK magnifies the power of CC, and I'm sure you guys love those right?

[hargrave]

Tanking was half dead pre 1.2, now is completely dead. Also de reduction of TTK magnifies the power of CC, and I'm sure you guys love those right?

 

watch out dangerous comments like this upset those who think cc is a separate issue from ttk lol

[signahead]

Except what he said was accurate.

 

Really? All it takes is one tank or DPS player who disagrees and it isn't accurate at all. In a game with hundreds of thousands of players and several times that many actual characters, I'm sure that we can find at least one.

 

I'm not rejecting the idea that a lot of people were unhappy with healers before patch 1.2. I'm a healer and my own teammates, the very people I was keeping alive, used to tell me that I was ruining the game. Some of them still do. There is no way that I can can deny that they were upset, and I am confident that most of them are happier (or at least less unhappy) than they were before the changes.

 

What I am rejecting is the assumption that every person who disagrees with the previous poster automatically falls into a tidy, well-defined category. That's not an argument. It's just a passive-aggressive threat: "Disagree with me and I am going to call you names. I am going to ignore what you actually say and, in my mind, I am going to replace you with a caricature that may have no resemblance to reality."

 

For me, it's hard to take that kind of statement seriously.

Edited April 21, 2012 by signahead

[Khoraji]

TTK is too low as of 1.2. This is not CoD.

 

The factor that has people messed up so much is healer coupled with tank. People cried about the TTK pre 1.2 cause they couldn't just roflstomp this combo even though you still can't its a lot easier.

If people would take advantage of all their interrupts and CC its be more fitting. Keep in mind that healer & tank doesn't yield a lot of DPS(not with an assassin either)

 

It's not for nothing that people who, through time, have taken pride in PvP are leaving Swtor.

 

Low TTK = low skill req.

 

and before I hear it; no faster pace does not equal higher skill, not as long as there is GCD. People are just dying faster and to some extent unable to do anything about it.

 

Low ttk != skill required

 

Sorry this is far from the truth. Long fights reduce the importance of strategy and tactics. In long fights, reinforcements are always a possibility, mistakes are less costly, and reaction time is not as important.

[Sugarray]

Low ttk != skill required

 

Sorry this is far from the truth. Long fights reduce the importance of strategy and tactics. In long fights, reinforcements are always a possibility, mistakes are less costly, and reaction time is not as important.

 

In longer fights your CC actually matters, and if you cant kill stuff, its quite likely because you dont use the CC that's at your disposal (generally) You lads are crying because people arn't dropping 5 sec after you engage in combat. You want FPS style combat and thats not what MMO is about.

 

How is nuke based PvP about skill?

[hargrave]

In longer fights your CC actually matters, and if you cant kill stuff, its quite likely because you dont use the CC that's at your disposal (generally) You lads are crying because people arn't dropping 5 sec after you engage in combat. You want FPS style combat and thats not what MMO is about.

 

How is nuke based PvP about skill?

 

i would love to hear gabes/georges answer on that one lol.

[Sugarray]

i would love to hear gabes/georges answer on that one lol.

 

Well they claimed to want to slow the game down even more (higher TTK), not sure that was called for though - it seemed pretty fine were it was.

 

They did the exact opposite though. Dunno how that even happens, if you stop and think about what you are doing it becomes pretty blatantly obvious that 1.2 would lower TTK

[Tim-ONeil]

As stated by others in the thread.

 

Expertsie is the only stat that matters for PVP gear.

The recruit gear > champion (in almost every instance).

 

Combat in PVP now is FAR FAR more tactical that it was.

Taunts are exceedingly useful. How many actually use them?

When do you stun someone? when they attack you ? or do you wait until they blow their defensive or offensive CD's ? The best time to CC someone is when you cant damage them.

Are you just spamming heals just to stay alive ? or do you slow your target then sprint away? or stun them and run, or punt them and run. Did you take the time to LOS the one attacking you to give you some breathing room so you CAN get a heal or 3 in? The good healers do....do you?

 

PVP actually requires skill to play effectivly now. Its a nice change.

 

Great post. I agree with all of this.

 

Depending on your class you might have to relearn how to play since 1 person can't tank 4 people without support. If you are focused on now you will die without elite heals and tanking. It's a level playing field in that respect. Focus your team better and you'll kill anyone.

 

What really changed? The focus shifted from one good player to a coordinated attack. If you PUG and the people you play with suck it's going to be harder.

[signahead]

Low ttk != skill required

 

Sorry this is far from the truth. Long fights reduce the importance of strategy and tactics. In long fights, reinforcements are always a possibility, mistakes are less costly, and reaction time is not as important.

 

I think I would argue that long fights and short fights require different tactics. This "the type of PvP I prefer is the One True Tactical Option" feels an awful lot like an "Is not!" "Is so!" argument.

[Raansu]

Low ttk != skill required

 

Sorry this is far from the truth. Long fights reduce the importance of strategy and tactics. In long fights, reinforcements are always a possibility, mistakes are less costly, and reaction time is not as important.

 

Longer fights require strategy.

 

3 second kills = brain dead zerg fest.

[LemmingLeader]

Longer fights require strategy.

 

3 second kills = brain dead zerg fest.

 

Pretty much.

[Timadan]

Right after 1.2 went live I thought the ttk was through the roof. I started to wonder why.

 

Here's what I did to answer my question.

 

For a full day I kept a calculator open on one of my secondary screens, while waiting for matches to start I inspected every person in the group and averaged the expertise across the group. The groups in which people went splat had an average expertise of 500 or less.

 

The groups that were the most competitive the average expertise across the group exceeded 800. Bear in mind it only takes one person to que up with 0 to really hurt the average across the entire group.

 

Thanks George for joining the discussion. What you posted pretty much confirms what I have observed.

 

Way to many people are queing up with pve gear or the old centurion/champ gear on.

[Sugarray]

Right after 1.2 went live I thought the ttk was through the roof. I started to wonder why.

 

Here's what I did to answer my question.

 

For a full day I kept a calculator open on one of my secondary screens, while waiting for matches to start I inspected every person in the group and averaged the expertise across the group. The groups in which people went splat had an average expertise of 500 or less.

 

The groups that were the most competitive the average expertise across the group exceeded 800. Bear in mind it only takes one person to que up with 0 to really hurt the average across the entire group.

 

Thanks George for joining the discussion. What you posted pretty much confirms what I have observed.

 

Way to many people are queing up with pve gear or the old centurion/champ gear on.

 

TTK is also lower on people with BM gear etc.

[Raansu]

TTK is also lower on people with BM gear etc.

 

It's actually nowhere near as bad. I had all champ gear when 1.2 when live and I'm all BM now ( kinda sad how easy it was to get BM compared to how long it took me to grind out champ) and the difference between the two is ridiculous. Running in my BM it feels closer to pre 1.2 but still a bit too much damage.

 

Still, my opinion stands that pvp should never be this dependent on gear...They really should just remove it and give everyone base pvp gear when they enter a warzone.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Raansu

[Timadan]

TTK is also lower on people with BM gear etc.

 

I won't argue with that, however those times when it feels like that take a look at the rest of the groups expertise numbers.

 

Here's what happens quite often, 2 or 3 of your team mates have no expertise and evaporate, this leaves you in the field of battle with 2 or more dps classes who's only real target left is you.

[Chaos_Distortion]

Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

TTK wouldn't be a problem if you guys didn't go out of your way to nerf healers in 1.2. You changed the way expertise scaled heals and nerfed healing classes in the same patch, that's what's causing all the issues. I can't believe you actually thought nerfing healing classes was a good idea with the changes to expertise in the same patch. Decreasing the ttk is never a good thing in MMOs, Warhammer learned that the hard way so they had to increase the ttk by a lot. Another thing you guys aren't factoring in with the ridiculous healing changes is rated warzones and what a coordinated team of players will be able to do, you're going to see the huge mistakes of nerfing healing once rated warzones come out.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Like the guy above stated, the TTK thing goes beyond expertise. People in full recruit gear are getting stomped by people in BM/WH gear just like people in PVE gear are getting stomped by everyone. Recruit gear giving you 13000 health is stupid. You need a massive PVP gear normalization. Everyone should have 'PVP gear' automatically switched into upon joining a warzone, and that gear should be normalized from AC to AC to enforce parity. When something needs buffed or nerfed in PVP, you buff or nerf an AC's PVP set.

 

New gear shouldn't be a reward for competing in PVP, you should just get new appearances, titles, pets, etc. PVP should always be about the PVP, not about enforcing a gear disparity for no other reason than because other MMOs do it (badly).

 

Also, snares and roots need their own DR system if you're not going to put them onto Resolve. Call it Tenacity or something and make it a second bar.

 

If everyone zones in and gets a "default" pvp set, where does the pregame strategy go? The best gear out there is *not* from the cookie cutter pvp sets, it involves mixing, matching, adding augements, etc. I don't mean to be rude, but gear is a part of mmo's where it's pve or pvp, and if you're looking for pvp that is such a quick "pick up game," you shouldn't be looking in the mmo section.

 

Personally, I think pvp gear needs to be made worse, so people use their brains and build their gear, rather than just grinding for a full set of BM/WH and being "mostly good." TTK will be increased if you actually build and customize gear.

 

Pregame Strategy: Gear, Group Composition, Build, Supplies (adrenals, medpacks, stims). If you didn't need to think about stuff pre-match, you would start out as 50, and not need to level 1-49.

 

(On a side note, I would love to see expertise go. No reason for it.)

Edited April 21, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[LoKiei]

If everyone zones in and gets a "default" pvp set, where does the pregame strategy go? The best gear out there is *not* from the cookie cutter pvp sets, it involves mixing, matching, adding augements, etc. I don't mean to be rude, but gear is a part of mmo's where it's pve or pvp, and if you're looking for pvp that is such a quick "pick up game," you shouldn't be looking in the mmo section.

 

Personally, I think pvp gear needs to be made worse, so people use their brains and build their gear, rather than just grinding for a full set of BM/WH and being "mostly good." TTK will be shortened if you actually build and customize gear.

 

Pregame Strategy: Gear, Group Composition, Build, Supplies (adrenals, medpacks, stims). If you didn't need to think about stuff pre-match, you would start out as 50, and not need to level 1-49.

 

(On a side note, I would love to see expertise go. No reason for it.)

 

Expertise exsists to keep PvP and PvE seperate.

 

Ability bonuses which are needed for higher PvE content become vastly OP in PvP without expertise.

Edited April 21, 2012 by LoKiei

[TyrantLeader]

Hey guys,

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

\

 

so scrapper dps is within desired dps targets???

[TurokDarkstar]

Hey guys,

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

Why don't you adjust each class individually instead of hurting all classes (especially those with very little competitive dps) with an unnecessary change to relics?

[RobNightfall]

I personally can't say what makes up the better part of the subscriber base, but casual vs. "hardcore" or not, I don't see how it can be difficult to put in just a little effort every day to build your character to fit your needs. You built their spec, you leveled them to 50, and I'll even assume you've got them geared in half decent pvp gear from the sets.

 

2hrs a day is enough to Pvp a few matches and then run a few of your dailies (Belsalvis, Corellia, etc...) or do a hard mode. A competent group can run an operations one night a week, in 2-3hrs. PvE gear alone is not good in Wz's, but it can give you mods and stuff to swap into pvp gear to take out some un-needed stuff and put more desirable stuff in.

 

Crafting can be done while waiting in Queue, or even during a match if you've got 10 seconds of downtime to send companions on a mission. (Don't forget to still play, cause "I was crafting..." is sure to piss off a few team mates if you got ninja'ed.)

 

On one of my alts, she's an artifice, and I already have an augmented weapon and I bought an augmented chest for 30k. She's only 35, so I've got 15 levels for the other pieces. Should take about 2-3weeks if I slack.

 

I do not mean to be rude, but from the continued conversation, it really seems you simply are not willing to take the time to learn other aspects of the game, and really just want bigger hp and better gear for little effort. That's not the trademark of the MMO genre.

 

Even when I was really motivated to play, I always had days that I did not play. I understand some people are busier than others with their lives, but this is why PvP gear is always such a lousy idea. Skill should be the most important factor, not gear.

As for the OP's post, I disagree. TTK is fine where it is. The fights are short, sharp, and soon over and that's how fights should be in PvP.

[Tigalo]

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

 

 

 

Hey Georg, I got a question for you in response to this.

 

If expertise is now so important, why did you double it on BM gear but leave it unchanged for the champion gear? Is this yet another example of BW just catering to the hardcores and screwing the casuals over?

Pre 1.2 I felt competitive with my full champion char, post 1.2 I feel like a freshly dinged 50. Did you ever stop to think that a lot of players did not have full BM gear?

 

And why oh why does BM gear still have way to much accuracy, a stat you devs already admitted was used way to much.

 

So, I love your game, but I think its time for you devs to pull your head out of your *** and actually start playing the game and experience how the game IS and not live in a dream world of how you WANT the game to be.

 

If I didnt love the game, and I only played it for PvP I would unsub in flash.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Tigalo

[Tigalo]

Taunts are exceedingly useful. How many actually use them?

When do you stun someone? when they attack you ? or do you wait until they blow their defensive or offensive CD's ? The best time to CC someone is when you cant damage them.

Are you just spamming heals just to stay alive ? or do you slow your target then sprint away? or stun them and run, or punt them and run. Did you take the time to LOS the one attacking you to give you some breathing room so you CAN get a heal or 3 in? The good healers do....do you?

 

 

Sorry, no slows, no sprint, only 1 stun on a 1 min CD, no interrupts.

 

Sure, if you have the tools use them, if you dont have the tools, dont bash people for not using what they dont have.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Tigalo

[manlysnowball]

I like PVP better now.

 

12 minute voidstars where i did 600k damage and got 3 kills, that wasn't fun.

 

1000 times this. I think the change makes survival more of a team effort, over extend and die.