Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.

[Bloberts]

Consider a tank class. There is a difference in effectiveness between wearing full tank gear and tank spec vs dps spec with dps gear, even if the expertise is exactly the same for both. Damage reduction at 1100 expertise is around 18% while dps boost is 22% from expertise, he wins 4% if he specializes in dps. This effects pvp by reducing the number of real tanks, since they realize it's not as efficient.

 

Same thing for healers, except that healing at 1100 expertise is 12% increase vs 22% dps.

 

Taking out majority of tanks and healers out of the equation, effects pvp by reducing strategy down to dps dps dps instead of dps heal tank.

 

Hope that answers your question why people don't like fast TTK and reduced healing/tanking in contrast with dps.

With that argument you're ignoring that tanks can do damage as well and usually have more effective cc. Damage is the name of the game in TOR's pvp and every spec has to do it. Bioware stated even before launch that healers were going to have to put out some damage of their own in order to be viable in combat.

 

If people don't want to play their healers because its not 24/7 whack a mole then so be it. Also, the game isnt balanced around 1v1.

 

By tagging on different factors of expertise to their relevant representations in roles (tanking, dps, healing) you're very much over-generalizing what actually goes in in warzones. With that being said, I do think heals should crit more often and for larger amounts to go along with the high crits with damage but the rate at which people are killed in 1.2 makes for more competitive and fast-paced warzones.

[Bloberts]

Right... endless skirmishes, you know the middle node in Civil War can go uncapped nearly the entire match because everyone's focused on killing each other? Or how the whole defending team is on ONE side in voidstar because that's where the attacking team zerged only to have the other door ninja planted.

 

And healing doesn't really have a place in warzones anymore, there'll be an occasional healer that'll hit 200-400K because they were left untouched, my operative healer gets focused on an awful lot and I can only manage 170K healing if not less, but if I'm left alone I can rack up lots.

 

How did you play your gunslinger before 1.2? I'm sure you were still able to kill tanks, post 1.2 you probably die even faster than pre 1.2, I know I kill slingers and snipers quick now since they're squishy.

 

I have no problem playing a squishy class beacuse I can utilize cover and my cc enough to where I don't notice my lack of damage reduction.

 

In the same context, If i screw up and get caught I have no problem getting owned and put back at the respawn.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Bloberts

[Malanoth]

I think a lot of you guys are looking at this from the wrong perspective if you feel games will drag on and on and players' toons will be very hard to kill if BW make TTK longer. PvP has to be balanced on the group dynamics, not the individual toons and there has to be some worthwhile, effective play.

 

Thats why it needs 3 DPS to take care of a well geared healer. And it will need 2 good DPS to take care of a very well geared tank class. Thats as it is now and I dont' think BW will change it. What it will mean is that it might take 15-20% longer to get the job done, which I think is about right. TTK does feel too short right now. BW agrees, so do many avid PvP'ers. Those who think its not too short are probably the players whose toons are in a very good place right now - Sents/Mara's, Troopers/BH's.

 

I'm not sure how they are going to do it, but I hope they get it right.

[Grethore]

Well, part of the high burst problem is the over abundance of stuns, mezzes, knock backs, snares etc etc. It's not hard to burst someone down if they can't fight back. If resolve built up faster, and decayed faster, it would make timing more of an issue, and thereby more strategic.

[OsephirothO]

If they're gonna shorten the ttk, they need to shorten the skill time.. healers are useless in PvPs now and its getting more and more frustrated..

[mamosh]

Well, part of the high burst problem is the over abundance of stuns, mezzes, knock backs, snares etc etc. It's not hard to burst someone down if they can't fight back. If resolve built up faster, and decayed faster, it would make timing more of an issue, and thereby more strategic.

 

exactly this resolve is still from before 1.2 with the longer ttk now with the short ttk you die in 2 stuns so annoying i got 1.2k expertise heavy armor and get stun locked kills as if i was naked

[Proteus]

i'm still totally confused why bw didn't buff champion gear. I still see a bunch of people running around in champ gear and qqing that they die too fast.

 

People played a lot of matches for their champion gear and they don't seem willing to pay credits for blues.

 

^^^^^this^^^^^

[KiranK]

Right... endless skirmishes, you know the middle node in Civil War can go uncapped nearly the entire match because everyone's focused on killing each other? Or how the whole defending team is on ONE side in voidstar because that's where the attacking team zerged only to have the other door ninja planted.

 

And healing doesn't really have a place in warzones anymore, there'll be an occasional healer that'll hit 200-400K because they were left untouched, my operative healer gets focused on an awful lot and I can only manage 170K healing if not less, but if I'm left alone I can rack up lots.

 

How did you play your gunslinger before 1.2? I'm sure you were still able to kill tanks, post 1.2 you probably die even faster than pre 1.2, I know I kill slingers and snipers quick now since they're squishy.

 

Right, so we should go back to the 15 minute fights where I could put out 400k damage in a warzone and still not get a single kill? Endless fights in the middle? Pre-1.2 it was STILL endless fights in the center for Alderaan, only no one was dying. People were over tanked and over healed and endlessly attacked one another. Before it was all tank/healer teams where no one would die, ever. Now at least you can DPS a healer down through guard without having to divide everyone to every healer just to get them all interrupted, since interrupts in this game are crappy and lackluster. Maybe give us real interrupts that lock out entire spell trees and we'll consider raising the TTK again. Until then I NEVER want to go back to stacking healers and tanks just to win WZs.

[SamuraiCrazy]

didnt read all the pages, and this seems to be off topic......but giving increased rewards for 1 medal did not help pvp...it only helped the afk numbers.

[zaknaphein]

Your logic has unintended results you wont like then. Healers quietly benefit the most from what you are talking about. We are talking about healing as in, WOW style, post resilence starting with the BC era. That era when blizzard moved from burst crit to a system that allowed players to spam heals endlessly by WOTLK.

 

It created a time when the BGs would be filled with 80% or more healers. It was just like this game was on many servers pre 1.2.

 

Blizzard's stupid mistake in game design grew an entire generation to think easy mode spam classes, with endless mana reserves, was some kind of intelligent fighting style. Spamming isn't tactical. It is straight up Corky.

 

The news flash for the average player is simple. Toons are not supposed to be Superman.

 

Marines do real life tactical fighting in the span of an eye blink. This long, boring dance people are talking about isn't pvp, it is a practiced dance of cool downs and mana reserves that certain specs and classes will simply do better than others, further complicated by gear issues.

 

Your request eventually makes cookie cutter pvp. Something that a 9 year old kid can copy and do just as well as you can. Does that really sound like genius or skill to you?

 

 

 

 

Sorry to say but this is full of BS. You say skill? You do realise this game is full of CC abilities and interrupts every class has. That is the tool to take down healers and tank/healer combos not pew pew without thinking. Timing those and coordinating attacks. Is that too hard to accomplish? Then let us switch the gamestyle to a more fps like game. To conclude this, wow pvp was garbage but you can take examples from other games as well which didn't have this archetype. Eventually after this free month ends, you will see the results without a doubt.

 

1.2 pvp is here to eliminate any strategies and thinking that took place before.

[Arlette]

Sorry to say but this is full of BS. You say skill? You do realise this game is full of CC abilities and interrupts every class has. That is the tool to take down healers and tank/healer combos not pew pew without thinking. Timing those and coordinating attacks. Is that too hard to accomplish? Then let us switch the gamestyle to a more fps like game. To conclude this, wow pvp was garbage but you can take examples from other games as well which didn't have this archetype. Eventually after this free month ends, you will see the results without a doubt.

 

1.2 pvp is here to eliminate any strategies and thinking that took place before.

 

Amen!

[Gretha]

Thats why it needs 3 DPS to take care of a well geared healer.

 

to be honest,

1 that knows that he has an 9s healingdebuff on a 6second cooldown and interrupts

was more dangerouse then 3 that didn't know what to do.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Gretha

[Alecz]

I find it laughable that the only class they have a problem with DPS wise is commando/mercenary.

 

Tankassin? No problem.

Juggasmasher? No problem.

Meltyafacetech? No problem.

 

Seriously, who thought making super-dps tanks was a good idea?

Also, who thought classes having damage types with no gear related mitigation was a good idea?

[Talarchy]

I' m not a maths expert, so I'm not going to quote dot's/procs ratios etc... All I have to go on is PVP pre 1.2, and PVP Post 1.2

 

Before 1.2, I rarley got 2-3 shotted and rarely left a warzone with more than a 10:2 kill ration, i.e If I had around 40 kills, it means I had around 20 deaths, no 'm not great, but I just got by.

 

After 1.2, I enter the WZ and before I even get to the objective, my toon freezes up, gets 3 shotted and then I get that magical "you just got pwnt!" pause from the game before dumping my corpse on the ground.

 

I'm not complaining that I dont get as many kills, or points etc. As long as I leave a wz with 10+ medals and some comms, I am happy. But when you are getting ***** in 2 or 3 shots, it sort of loses it's appeal.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Talarchy

[RachelAnne]

Your logic has unintended results you wont like then. Healers quietly benefit the most from what you are talking about. We are talking about healing as in, WOW style, post resilence starting with the BC era. That era when blizzard moved from burst crit to a system that allowed players to spam heals endlessly by WOTLK.

 

It created a time when the BGs would be filled with 80% or more healers. It was just like this game was on many servers pre 1.2.

 

Blizzard's stupid mistake in game design grew an entire generation to think easy mode spam classes, with endless mana reserves, was some kind of intelligent fighting style. Spamming isn't tactical. It is straight up Corky.

 

The news flash for the average player is simple. Toons are not supposed to be Superman.

 

Marines do real life tactical fighting in the span of an eye blink. This long, boring dance people are talking about isn't pvp, it is a practiced dance of cool downs and mana reserves that certain specs and classes will simply do better than others, further complicated by gear issues.

 

Your request eventually makes cookie cutter pvp. Something that a 9 year old kid can copy and do just as well as you can. Does that really sound like genius or skill to you?

 

I was always a big fan of the old wow pvp system that actually made you think before hitting a button.

 

You had to use CC, intercepts etc. to kill someone at vanilla and this was still the best system. If you did ignore the priest healing the FC, then you didnt deserve to win and even your 5 men attack group couldnt change that vs. 2 defenders.

 

What wow but pvp in general has become to is a nightmare for everyone that wants to get some skill involved. To hit 3-4 buttons and beat everyone is a pointless system that favors the wrong gameplay.

 

What you describe is a typical result of that gameplay, you demand to kill everything in 2-3 quick burst´s if you fail then its ofc. them who are invincible and not you who does fail to understand that a kick on the healer does more harm than trying to nuke a tank down.

 

There is a reason why the vanilla pvp community at wow is still counted as the most skilled pvp community there and not the arena style burst community that is there now.

 

 

As for Tor, we are currently in arena style mode where dps matters and nothing else. I find that sad, as it doesnt favor the right way of pvp. Nobody should be able to kill someone, if he ignores his defensive mechanics every time / his support.

[Noctournys]

I was always a big fan of the old wow pvp system that actually made you think before hitting a button.

 

You had to use CC, intercepts etc. to kill someone at vanilla and this was still the best system. If you did ignore the priest healing the FC, then you didnt deserve to win and even your 5 men attack group couldnt change that vs. 2 defenders.

 

What wow but pvp in general has become to is a nightmare for everyone that wants to get some skill involved. To hit 3-4 buttons and beat everyone is a pointless system that favors the wrong gameplay.

 

What you describe is a typical result of that gameplay, you demand to kill everything in 2-3 quick burst´s if you fail then its ofc. them who are invincible and not you who does fail to understand that a kick on the healer does more harm than trying to nuke a tank down.

 

There is a reason why the vanilla pvp community at wow is still counted as the most skilled pvp community there and not the arena style burst community that is there now.

 

 

As for Tor, we are currently in arena style mode where dps matters and nothing else. I find that sad, as it doesnt favor the right way of pvp. Nobody should be able to kill someone, if he ignores his defensive mechanics every time / his support.

 

Vanilla WoW PvP was a gibfest... it was the height of 3-global implosions. Your rose colored glasses are extremely strong.

[Armelle]

I am fine with the burst, it just needs to be evened out. DPS spec sage/sorc is currently the focus target of choice in any WZ because they die easy and build up your stats...and there's no way to handle it. Yet their DPS is less than a Marauder and they have zero burst. Here's my typical WZ...fly to mid, run in to max range, buff the swriling mass of players, then try to DPS from the side and pray nobody notices...I will hit their healers if I can, but ususally that means getting closer to the main melee and that = death...so I just stay way out there...oops, 3 marauders and a jugg jumping at me again trying to kill me first and arguing with each other about it..."the squishy is mine!" "no, mine!"

 

When you nerfed healers I guess you forgot you'd be taking DPS light armor wearers down with them. Healers can at least do something to save themselves.

 

I can knock them back about 3 steps...this is meaningless other than as an interrupt or if I can knock them off a high spot. They can jump 10 times the distance. I can snare 1 attacker and then it's on cooldown. I can force sprint away. Where's my 3-5 sec of invulnerability to everyone on a cooldown? My only 2 effective defenses take me out of the fight *entirely* or only affect one player for a few seconds.

 

You're probably going to tell me to spec for PvP. Fine. Give me dual spec and I will. That will still only mitigate the issue, though. Melee leapers are too defensively stacked in comparison. The proof is in the behavior. I tiptoe everywhere I go, where the melees will jump right into the midst of any number of foes without even looking twice. The difference is far beyond any BS heavy vs. light armor differential.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Armelle

[NoTomorrow]

I lol at face of ppl that consider ttk too short. Voidstar Full premades on both sides. http://i47.tinypic.com/16l07xw.jpg

 

Ppl need to die in this game. Otherwise what is the point of playing.

Edited May 15, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Elilhrairah]

Sorry, no slows, no sprint, only 1 stun on a 1 min CD, no interrupts.

 

Sure, if you have the tools use them, if you don't have the tools, don't bash people for not using what they don't have.

 

Exactly! People need to really play a class before jumping into forum threads and claiming that all QQ about a certain class is invalid and that it's all really just lack of player skill. Bull$hit people! Go actually play a Mercenary/Commando, to lvl 50, and pvp with them, THEN come say they suck because of lack of skill.

 

Fact of the matter is, BW literally BROKE the single most important move an Arsenal Merc has and they said so themselves.

 

Tracer Missile

Activation: 2 secs

Heat: 16

Range: 30 m

Launches a missile at the target that deals 670 kinetic damage and applies a heat signature, reducing the armor rating by 4% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. Heat signatures leave the target vulnerable to Rail Shot.

 

Only in 1.2 BW rendered Tracer Missile entirely unstackable to "fix" the problem of multiple Mercs' Tracers being computed into one Mercs resulting damage output on that target. No stacks means our biggest move, Heatseeker, loses it's big move multiplier, which was a 25% damage increase, not to mention Tracer's own stacking 4% armor rating debuff up to 5x for a 20% armor debuff. Now it is merely a straight 670 weapon damage that has a very long cast time and generates so much heat each use that spamming more than 2 is impossible.

 

* Edited to include both moves dependent on Tracer's stacks actually stacking.*

Edited June 11, 2012 by Elilhrairah

[brainpsyk]

I think the solution is to fix expertise across the different PvP sets. Recruit = Battlemaster = War Hero = 1000 (as a nice round number).

 

As stated, the problem here is Expertise. It's meant to separate PvE gear from PvP gear, but it is so dominating, that Columi vs Recruit is no contest, but neither is Battlemaster vs. War Hero. Right now, on my server, 80-90% of the games are

 

1. Get rolled by a 8-man double-War Hero premade
   
2. 2-roll you opponent with a War Hero premade
   

 

The last 10% is games where there is actually a fight. (Stats not made up, I kept track of it for a week). It's sad, because on my server, it better to give up when fighting the double-War-Hero premade than actually fight it out. Get your medal(s) from defending the 1 node, then sit around for the game to end. Why feed your opponent kills, when it will make zero difference in the outcome. It sucks, but why PvP 4-5 hours a night while getting rolled. It's better to let those bad games go quickly and hope the next game is a real PvP match.

 

Talking with 2-3 different guilds on vent, and you hear switching to Guild Wars (even just the Beta) comes up a lot. PvP is just no fun when you are getting rolled by gear, not skill.

 

The most fun I've had in PvP lately is when we did an 8 vs 8 double premade, NAKED Yep, no gear except your weapon and offhand. Why? no expertise. War Heroes died the same as everyone else. That's why lowbie PvP is so fun, no expertise.

 

When it comes to Expertise, most conversations around are like this:

 

That was precisely the point of my post: 900 expertise is worth a lot. The difference of 900 expertise in PvP is a lot more pronounced than additional 200 health from higher endurance on Centurion gear.

 

Recruit is on par, if not better than Centurion gear when it comes to PvP due to the importance of expertise post 1.2. (It replaced Centurion gear). Yes, you're missing out on a bunch of health and PvE stats and a set bonus, but the difference in expertise that affects survivability, healing and damage makes up for it.

 

The problem is they talk about going from Zero to 900. What about 900 to 1300? There is almost zero diminishing returns on Expertise, so a person with 900 expertise will get dominated by someone with 1300 Expertise the same way someone with 500 expertise (half recruit) will get dominated by 900 expertise.

 

The solution is simple: make all the PvP gear give the same amount of Expertise. Recruit = Battlemaster = War Hero = 1000 (as a nice round number). Then the basic stats of the gear becomes the differentiating factor. If all the mods give 50 Expertise, and all the Enhancements give 50 expertise, then you are free to mix and match Battlemaster and War Hero mods to suit your needs. Sure, the stats on War Hero is better, but it's supposed to be better. Swapping mods becomes better, because you don't lose your dominating stat.

 

Expertise still reigns supreme, but we put the fight back in PvP, instead of a slaughterfest.

 

Oh, and on that 8 vs 8, notice I didn't say 8 vs 8 "War Hero", only 1 side was War Hero, and that would be the Imps. We were mostly Battlemaster, with 1-2 WHs, instead of 6-full-WHs, and we ROLLED them. Right now, PvP = gear, PvP != skill.