Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.

[EchoTwoOmega]

As stated by others in the thread.

 

Expertsie is the only stat that matters for PVP gear.

The recruit gear > champion (in almost every instance).

 

Combat in PVP now is FAR FAR more tactical that it was.

Taunts are exceedingly useful. How many actually use them?

When do you stun someone? when they attack you ? or do you wait until they blow their defensive or offensive CD's ? The best time to CC someone is when you cant damage them.

Are you just spamming heals just to stay alive ? or do you slow your target then sprint away? or stun them and run, or punt them and run. Did you take the time to LOS the one attacking you to give you some breathing room so you CAN get a heal or 3 in? The good healers do....do you?

 

PVP actually requires skill to play effectivly now. Its a nice change.

[kshira]

Sorry Georg, I don't believe that for one second. A lot of the ppl that pvp daily along with myself (1100 expertise) see that the TTK has changed dramatically. It isn't fun to gib or to be gibbed by someone so quick. I get hit for over 5k regularly and it's not that lack of not knowing if they're expertise is off par to mine. Something is definitely up and your metrics are definitely not working properly.

 

I'd charge that your pvp team should play on the regular servers more with us.

[hargrave]

If there still are person that say sage/ sorc are OP i will Say TRY Before to talk.

 

There is only 1 tree viable that do damage, Healing is almost dead, hybrid is death, we are so weak that you dont have any idea.... The bubble desappear at the first shot, and almost every dps class can kill sorc/healer, the heavy number of CC and Higher damage plus the low DPS burst compared the others classes is a ****.

At least on PvP server, prob in PvE server is different.

 

I do have a sorc and i will never bring that class into a warzone or pvp with it again its just insanely op and that lighting is just pure nuking. Even using other skils the lighting does the most dmg they need to put it on a longer cd and make the other skils more viable. As for healing its a joke compared to the agent if you want to be a healer your better off with agent anyways i have both and the agent outheals and has power regen the sorc can not do sustained healing like the agent.

 

Chainstunning is related to ttk anyone that thinks other wise is not pvp'ng

 

1-49 pvp is still better the difference between 1-49 and 50 is HUGE.

Why not put a poll would u like to see expertise removed from the game? If im wrong george prove it. Lets do what the players want not the devs...

[Darkbloom]

Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

Thanks very much for these changes, and thanks for keeping separate the issue of healers being overpowered pre-1.2 and the issue if shortening present-day time to kill (which can be illustrated in a pure dps vs dps battle with no healer).

 

I play a healer, and I knew that we were way too powerful. But something else is going wrong now when many of the best players in pre-mades are complaining about huttball matches that always end 0-0 because no one can survive carrying the ball under the burst damage. Maybe it is all the stacking abilities in groups that are structured to take advantage of that, I don't know. It seems like you all have started to correct mistakes pretty quickly though, and that's good.

[lordofdamornin]

If there still are person that say sage/ sorc are OP i will Say TRY Before to talk.

 

There is only 1 tree viable that do damage, Healing is almost dead, hybrid is death, we are so weak that you dont have any idea.... The bubble desappear at the first shot, and almost every dps class can kill sorc/healer, the heavy number of CC and Higher damage plus the low DPS burst compared the others classes is a ****.

At least on PvP server, prob in PvE server is different.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't need to try. I just have to watch the 3-sage combos from a few guilds on my server wreck stuff both as a team, and individually, to know that your class is still quite strong.

 

I also see Sages die pretty fast...but not these guys. They are doing something that you aren't - might want to find out what it is.

 

Also, healing is far from dead - you just have to actually play a little smarter now, as does your team.

 

Thanks for the response, Georg - it's good to know that you guys are actually watching and making adjustments. It's also good to know that you are trying to identify the actual problems, instead of listening to fools who somehow think they know better when they don't have anywhere near the information needed to make such a claim.

 

Riôt

[OpenSorce]

The OP is right. This game could use some PvP as opposed to the current Burst vs. CC. The PvP after 1.1.5 was pretty good IMO. The shortened TTK kinda makes it less fun. It's less about skill and more about who gets the opener.

[ArmoredJuneBug]

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP.

Be that as it may there's a serious design flaw with Expertise as implmented.

 

Namely, it increases damage output.

 

The whole function of PvP gear, and specs, is to slow down the pace of the game to a moderately manageable level - so as to avoid making PvP gameplay the equivalent of Counter Strike - TOR Edition.

 

With Expertise actually increasing damage output that's doesn't happen.

 

Granted, I'm terrible at PvP and I don't have the gear either but at this point I'm going to have to ask if there's going to be free server transfers for those of us that had the poor judgment to roll on a PvP server. Because it's become almost unmanageable now.

 

And failing that I'd like an ETA on paid transfers, because if this pace of PvP combat is intended - or anything near it really - that content is dead to me in this game.

 

(As a side-note I left WoW because PvP in that game, where I were actually decent, turned into ever more of a gibfest after TBC.)

[Aaoogaa]

Battlemaster vs battlemaster gearing TTK is 6-8 seconds 1 v 1 and when 2 v 1 TTK is sitting somewhere in the 3-4.5 second range. If this is the goal TTK when you have 1150 expertise then I don't think I will be PVPing for to much longer. Edited April 20, 2012 by Aaoogaa

[Sweeet]

Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

I just wanted to thank you, Gabe and the PvP team for the response. I can't tell you how relieved I am to know that you too recognise TTK post 1.2 is a real issue. I greatly look forward to this revamping you speak of.

 

My only criticism, is the time it's taken for the response. I know these things take time - I know all too well! But a "looking into it" wouldn't go a miss if something should happen like this again. People don't like being ignored, especially when they're paying for a service. A simple courtesy such as this would have gone a very long way in stemming people's discontent.

 

But thanks again, I'm glad you're on the case. I actually feel like I can enjoy PvP somewhat more now that there's a glimmer of light in the distance

[Vid-szhite]

Right, because stuns have nothing at all to do with TTK. Good logic there, brah.

 

I must have missed the patch note where being stunned killed you faster.

 

Stuns don't kill you faster, but if you're getting perma stunned, it's because you have more than one person focus firing you - at that point, the stun is irrelevant except that you can't run away, and unless you're a consular or inquisitor, that wasn't happening anyway. It has little to do with the average Time To Kill, as TTK is largely affected by differences in Expertise, availability of Adrenals, and relics. That's the focus of the discussion, which is clearly unimportant to the person I replied to, who used the opportunity of seeing Georg Zoeller as an invitation to berate the dev team and vent about every brand-new PvPer's pet cause: stuns in PvP. While annoying, stuns in PvP have almost nothing to do with how fast people die under focus fire - it merely affects how likely people are to die if they are already under focus fire, and therefore, his cause has no place in a discussion about how even well-geared people are dying much faster in PvP since the changes to Expertise went live. The discussion we're having is about how having a faster average TTK makes PvP in SWTOR less about thinking, tactics, and flanking, and more about who can get their DPS in range faster.

 

So, yes, I do think my logic is pretty sound, "brah".

Edited April 20, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[EchoTwoOmega]

Battlemaster vs battlemaster gearing TTK is 6-8 seconds 1 v 1 and when 2 v 1 TTK is sitting somewhere in the 3-4.5 second range. If this is the goal TTK when you have 1150 expertise then I don't think I will be PVPing for to much longer.

 

Not sure what PVP you have been participating in but 1v1 TTK is more like 45 - 60 seconds.

4 on 1 TTK is around 15 - 20 seoncds with proper CD management.

[Deewe]

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

Expertise is IMHO a very bad way to reward (lure) players in PvP as it divides PvE and PvP game play in two separate pools.

 

Thing is in an MMO you want to make people play with, (or against in that case), each others, not apart.

As soon as you're adding and even more empowering things like expertise you are adding an entry barrier to the PvP.

 

Now consider gear look and stats management in TOR is an heavy process you're even more increasing the barrier in case the players cares for their characters look.

 

Finally Expertise is not the only way to balance PvP from PvE nor the best one either.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Deewe

[hargrave]

I must have missed the patch note where being stunned killed you faster.

 

Stuns don't kill you faster, but if you're getting perma stunned, it's because you have more than one person focus firing you - at that point, the stun is irrelevant except that you can't run away, and unless you're a consular or inquisitor, that wasn't happening anyway. It has little to do with the average Time To Kill, as TTK is largely affected by differences in Expertise, availability of Adrenals, and relics. That's the focus of the discussion, which is clearly unimportant to the person I replied to, who used the opportunity of seeing Georg Zoeller to berate the dev team and vent about every brand-new PvPer's pet cause: stuns in PvP. While annoying, stuns in PvP have almost nothing to do with how fast people die under focus fire - it merely affects how likely people are to die if they are already under focus fire.

 

Yes, I do think my logic is pretty sound, "brah".

 

lol expertise makes no difference when your chain stunned.You can have the full war hero gear set and just die the same as a fresh 50 its a contributing factor and valid point.If you want to be a butkisser so be it but im gonna be real with "george" and them b/c despite them lying and saying thier best pvp team and ilum bieng a 100vs100 i want this game to succeed im gonna call them on that b/c i want to do that and have competent people to make that happen

Edited April 20, 2012 by hargrave

[Raansu]

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

You say this but last night I didn't feel like burning a fleet pass to get my pvp gear while I was doing my dailies and did over 10 matches in full Rakata minus my BM mainhand (100 exp) and my 2 implants being columi and did just as well if not better and lived longer in full Rakata.

[Flying-Brian]

Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

Can you please go back and look at what the adjustments are. Solo combat data in pve or on training dummies show that Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile is hitting for at least 25% less then it should be. The damage after putting 5x stacks on a target is less then the tool tip damage listed for the attack. It is like the +5% damage buff per stack in not being counted from the person doing the attack.

 

This has nothing to do with the high crits that people were whining about after 1.2, but now with the changes in 1.2.0.c the skill has been made useless.

[Fobfather]

Battlemaster vs battlemaster gearing TTK is 6-8 seconds 1 v 1 and when 2 v 1 TTK is sitting somewhere in the 3-4.5 second range. If this is the goal TTK when you have 1150 expertise then I don't think I will be PVPing for to much longer.

 

I dont think i've ever died in 6-8 seconds unless i was opened on by two operatives or scoundrels at the same time. 3-4 seconds for a 2v1? maybe against targets with NO expertise....quit exaggerating.

 

I dont get why people think this game is supposed to be God mode? it's pvp.....people are supposed to die. Guess what?! you respawn!!!!!

[ArcanusofMemphis]

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting.

 

Slightly higher?

 

So I can conlcude that the zergfest is intended?

 

Therefore it would be reasonable to conclude that it is the intended direction of the game to have a substantially lower TTK than 1.1.5?

 

Thanks, that's all I needed to know.

Edited April 20, 2012 by ArcanusofMemphis

[hargrave]

if your main is a inq/con this post is for you!

 

I dont think i've ever died in 6-8 seconds unless i was opened on by two operatives or scoundrels at the same time. 3-4 seconds for a 2v1? maybe against targets with NO expertise....quit exaggerating.

 

I dont get why people think this game is supposed to be God mode? it's pvp.....people are supposed to die. Guess what?! you respawn!!!!!

[Fobfather]

if your main is a inq/con this post is for you!

 

The bad inq/consulars can go down very very easy, i do agree on that point. However, those are mainly the same ones who use knockback seemingly for no reason, dont sprint away,and sit in front of melee casting force lightning trying to outdps him head to head.

 

I laugh every time I see sages and sorcs fighting it out at the middle of huttball, nowhere near something to LoS, nothing to knock anyone off of, etc.

[signahead]

For me, it would be great if we had a combat log we could access from within the game. So when we do get chewed up and spat out, we can look back at the log (right at that very moment, when the whole thing is still fresh in our minds) and see what happened.

 

Georg's remarks are encouraging, and they sound reasonable. But they would be sooo much more reassuring if we had some way to compare his numbers (and the numbers of other players) with our own. Right now, so many of these discussions revolve around how PvP feels, and that's not a recipe for good discussion. Sure, the feel of a game is vitally important. But what happens when one player says "I feel this way" and another player says "I feel something else"? Are they going to argue about what's going on in their own heads?

 

Well, OK, that's what we are doing right now. So many of our discussions boil down to "I feel this way", followed by "No you don't" or "you're stupid, so how you feel doesn't matter". Please Georg, you have a smart community here. It's full of people who want to know (not just guess) about how the game works. And they want to discuss that information with other equally-smart players. That kind of well-informed, passionate discussion is one of the best parts of a healthy gaming community, and when we don't have it, we start to eat our own young.

 

Please, Georg. I know facing a well-informed gaming community comes with its own set of challenges, but you're up to it. We're up to it. Share those numbers with us in the game, so we can see the link between what happens in PvP and the math that goes on behind the scenes.

[TimoTribal]

TTK is way better now in 1.2 than in 1.1. The only people who don't like it are healers who miss dominating warzones in the old set up.

[olagaton]

TTK in SWTOR has always been way too short, even since the game was released. PvP in swtor is one dimensional, and always has been. I relish the day they fix it, and make survival builds a valid playstyle.

[Sugarray]

TTK is too low as of 1.2. This is not CoD.

 

The factor that has people messed up so much is healer coupled with tank. People cried about the TTK pre 1.2 cause they couldn't just roflstomp this combo even though you still can't its a lot easier.

If people would take advantage of all their interrupts and CC its be more fitting. Keep in mind that healer & tank doesn't yield a lot of DPS(not with an assassin either)

 

It's not for nothing that people who, through time, have taken pride in PvP are leaving Swtor.

 

Low TTK = low skill req.

 

and before I hear it; no faster pace does not equal higher skill, not as long as there is GCD. People are just dying faster and to some extent unable to do anything about it.

[signahead]

TTK is way better now in 1.2 than in 1.1. The only people who don't like it are healers who miss dominating warzones in the old set up.

 

It's very difficult to take this kind of argument seriously. If you want to examine how healers affected PvP before the last patch, then do it. The topic has a lot of potential for conversation. But making this kind of generalization is one tiny step away from "People who disagree with me are yucky and they smell like poo." It doesn't add anything to the discussion.

[vimm]

It's very difficult to take this kind of argument seriously. If you want to examine how healers affected PvP before the last patch, then do it. The topic has a lot of potential for conversation. But making this kind of generalization is one tiny step away from "People who disagree with me are yucky and they smell like poo." It doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

Except what he said was accurate.