Change to rewards is a step in the right direction, but TTK is still way too short.

[Bekkal]

With 800-900 (i.e. relatively low) Expertise, I can survive 2-3 people beating on me for like a minute solid if I have a tank Guarding me, as a healer.

 

If I am healing someone else, and no one is chain-cc'ing me, I can keep him up through 2-3 people beating on him basically forever.

 

Any large-scale (6-8 people) fight involving 2-3 healers per side is very much a long fight, regardless of target focus.

 

Are you guys playing the same game I am?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Bekkal

[fungihoujo]

So you want a return to tank / healer matches with 3 kills for an entire team? It is a pvp match not a raiding boss fight.

 

If you want really crappy, made for toddlers, pve style BGs, maybe your guild should go back to WOW. Just saying, that style of game exists and if the player base here wanted that, they'd be playing that instead of reading these forums.

 

 

Are you seriously trying to glorify a two dimensional pvp system that revolves entirely around burst dps classes? The reason there were low kills before was a mixture of- extremely low burst classes, and bad players.

 

If you had good players playing burst classes pre-1.2, combat was still fast paced. The healer/tank teams only managed to stump played with no comprehension on CC, interrupts- who were also in bad gear/bad players/classes with no burst.

 

If all classes could compete with marauders in terms of burst/pressure, then even pre-1.2 healing would still be far too weak. However, when you look at sorc burst and see the abiilty to crit over 2.5k once every 15 seconds- and average tics under 1k- from their perspective 1.2 was nowhere near enough to make them viable in killing a team with a single healer.... while marauders can take out half a team of healers.

 

It's problematic that some dps ACs will still face healers and find them untouchable, while others currently find them a breeze barely worth noting- healers should be as valuable as any other player.

[Edrlin]

Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

Thanks for the feed back. However, I have to agree with my fellow pvpers that your time to respond is a bit slow. Even if it is just a quick "this is the way we want it". But, my question is this: Pre-1.2 pvp values on your character would look a lot more like this

- PVP Damage Boost: 10.50%

- PVP Damage Reduction: 10.50%

- PVP Healing Boost: 10.50%

 

The main reason I have heard for the change in DR for expertise was to not let PVE gear be viable if PVP. So, my question is why do the PVP stats look like this now?

- - PVP Damage Boost: 15.50%

- PVP Damage Reduction: 11.50%

- PVP Healing Boost: 10.50%

 

Why not increase the value of expertise for all percentages? It would make PVE less valuable in PVP, and keep the feel of pvp that everyone liked the way it was? On a related note, why do you not go over this stuff in the patch notes? Or at least do a blog post about this type of change? It is obvious from the posts that you have read here that you have a strong number crunching pvp player base. If you don't want your patch notes to be cluttered you should at least care enough to post in a blog saying that, "DR on expertise being changed is not 100% true. We are increasing the value of expertise and reducing the DR on the damage value of expertise greatly. We feel that this will reach our goal of ...because of..." etc.

 

I think your player base would be less apt to flame so much, but if not, at least you would have a better leg to stand on.

[Gardod]

With 800-900 (i.e. relatively low) Expertise, I can survive 2-3 people beating on me for like a minute solid if I have a tank Guarding me, as a healer.

 

If I am healing someone else, and no one is chain-cc'ing me, I can keep him up through 2-3 people beating on him basically forever.

 

Any large-scale (6-8 people) fight involving 2-3 healers per side is very much a long fight, regardless of target focus.

 

Are you guys playing the same game I am?

 

Do you have any half capable marauders or operatives around?

I'm fully BM commando healer, and I get droped without casting a spell if I'm not guarded vs operative. If any 2 melee classes decide to focus me everytime they see me in a warzone I spend more time dead than alive. I simply drop in seconds and there is nothing I can do. If I can't even keep myself up, how can I heal people around me?

[WrecklessMEDIC]

Like the guy above stated, the TTK thing goes beyond expertise. People in full recruit gear are getting stomped by people in BM/WH gear just like people in PVE gear are getting stomped by everyone. Recruit gear giving you 13000 health is stupid. You need a massive PVP gear normalization. Everyone should have 'PVP gear' automatically switched into upon joining a warzone, and that gear should be normalized from AC to AC to enforce parity. When something needs buffed or nerfed in PVP, you buff or nerf an AC's PVP set.

 

New gear shouldn't be a reward for competing in PVP, you should just get new appearances, titles, pets, etc. PVP should always be about the PVP, not about enforcing a gear disparity for no other reason than because other MMOs do it (badly).

 

Also, snares and roots need their own DR system if you're not going to put them onto Resolve. Call it Tenacity or something and make it a second bar.

 

Most people only PvP to get new gear. If all we got was titles and pets I'd probably never play Warzones again.

[zaknaphein]

If that's the answer they provide i sincerely fear for the future patches and the changes they will bring. As of now with other games coming to the market we can safely say RIP SWTOR.

 

This actually reminds me the response a couple of months ago when they blamed users' computers for the bad fps the game was experiencing across crowded areas.

Edited April 20, 2012 by zaknaphein

[Elarion]

I use a variation of the Ironfist spec on my Vanguard and have always liked it for the versatility and suvivability of the spec but since 1.2 I find that I die just as fast as I do in assault spec. I am in full BM gear and pretty much have been since before 1.2 and it's unlikely that a lack of expertise is the reason behind my squishiness since the patch.

[Bekkal]

Do you have any half capable marauders or operatives around?

I'm fully BM commando healer, and I get droped without casting a spell if I'm not guarded vs operative. If any 2 melee classes decide to focus me everytime they see me in a warzone I spend more time dead than alive. I simply drop in seconds and there is nothing I can do. If I can't even keep myself up, how can I heal people around me?

 

Full disclosure - there are a *LOT* of "baddies" on my server. A lot. They vastly outnumber the good players.

 

That said - I have no problem with someone being able to 1v1 me if they can cc me enough. That's par for the course as a healer. If two people jump you, and you don't have someone guarding you (or at least reliably peeling off you), then you should most assuredly die. If you are relying on skills with a cast time, then you should most assuredly die. If you are not cc'ing enemies on your own, then you should most assuredly die.

 

If you are doing all of this and are still getting creamed the way you describe, then your class needs some changes. I still can't see blaming the pvp system as a whole as a good justification.

[Edryk]

Yeeeah... Im a PT tank, who really loves PvE, and used to love PvP. However, after 1.2, I dont find it fun as a tank. Pre-1.2, I could stay alive long enough vs 1-2 dps'ers (depending on how skilled) to call for help in voidstar or civil war.

Post-1.2, I can hold my own for ~8-15 seconds vs 1 dpser (again, depending on skill, and class now).

 

Figured this was just me, as I have stacked quite a bit of PvE gear (needed endurance because of guard). Only have three BM pieces, and if I swap over to recruit, I drop insane amounts of hp, which renders me even more useless (Guard a healer at 15k hp = me dropping 50% of my hp from healer dying = me beeing piss easy to kill).

However, I talked to some other tanks, and they have the same experience as me. Three of the five i talked to have swapped to dps, two have stopped doing pvp until we are useful in pvp again.

 

Me, well, I've stopped pvp'ing at the 50 bracket until I get my operative to 50 (can at least see if it is possible to heal at all in warzones.)

 

If that doesnt pan out, well, there is always PvE. :-D Which atm, I find a helluva lot more entertaining than PvP.

 

But meh, guess I'm gonna get flamed for using pve gear in warzones now. But pay notice: One of the tanks I talked to (Guardian), is full bm with 2-3 war hero pieces, with the same experience as me. (10k hits from marauder lolwut?).

 

TL;DR: Lazy bastard, read the post.

 

As a PT tank I feel more durable after 1.2. Get your BM gear and you'll be fine. You can't ask to be much more useful than we already are. If they have 20% expertise and you have 5%, well yeah, you should expect to die.

[DavydM]

Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

 

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

(b) In response to your feedback, we've re-tested all classes to ensure they are falling within our desired DPS targets and found one issue with Demo Round / Heatseeker Missile which was getting increased DPS, not just from other people's stacks but also from an unwanted interaction with other skills. That issue was corrected in the 1.2.0c patch this week.

 

© There has been some level of inflation in the overall DPS budget of the game as result of Legacy benefits and other changes. Over time, these add up and as it stands, we have established that the global burst potential across the game is slightly higher than we are targeting. We will likely take some minor to moderate action about this in the near future by adjustments to the magnitude and duration of offensive relics (longer duration, reduced magnitude, identical power amortized over time).

 

(d) When faced with groups of enemies, stacking debuffs can result a real TTK issue. We are in process of revamping the debuff system in the game to reduce the impact of multi player debuff stacking on TTK.

 

Georg, its all well and good to say that the DPS fits in with what you guys want - but the honest truth is PVP is not as much fun anymore from a lot of players perspective. I'm a valor 75 Jugg with all BM gear and expertise around 1100ish? 20+% to dmg basically and for a lot of people I talk to they just are not enjoying the changes to expertise as much as you devs think we are. I know of a lot of really good players that have quit on Dalborra since 1.2 because PVP was no longer fun for them and before you say adjust your stratagies etc. we did we are winning games (more than we lose) thats not the issue the issue is it is now a lot more frustrating dieing all the bloody time - the fights might have been slower in the past but they were certainly more fun and more challangeing as you had to use some stratagy.

 

I understand you want to stop the PVEers crying about PVPers coming over and doing ops in PVP gear and PVPers crying about PVEers doing Warzones in PVE gear but FFS does it really matter? I thought the idea is for the game to be fun - not an endless frustration - I would suggest perhaps scaling the expertise percentage back a bit say 15% for 1100 expertise or something like that and make mitigation and damge the same %, because at the current rate people are just getting fed up with it. I had another friend quit tonight out of frustration at least if your going to keep it as it is (even if you do tweak it back a bit) allow us to form 8 man teams so we can go in with some semblance of a balanced team even if you dont implement ranked warzones for a while this would be a step in the right direction...

[TerryChastain]

I think it is more of their knee jerk balancing of classes than difference in gear. I know we can get a full 8 man of BM geared vs their Full BM geared pre-made tankassin and jugg team and we might as well be wearing lvl 1 starter gear. They just tear us apart. When is it ok for a 4 man pre-made to be able to wipe out 7 people that are skilled and geared, but just don't happen to be playing tankassin or jugg/guardian? Game balance is a lot bigger issue than recruit vs battlemaster gear. It is easy to get battlemaster gear, and if anyone is a true pvper than they likely have almost a full set or close to it.

 

On my server we have a lot of crappy players and we wish we could q as an 8 man, but as of now we know that it would be worse cause the imps would just make groups that would only be able to be countered with a matching group. That would eliminate most of the good PvPers on our side that are not those classes. Hell, I think we would only have enough good PvPers using tankassin or guardian/sent to make one good 8 man to match what they could create. I know for myself I don't want to make a new char(FOTM) to enjoy PvP.

Edited April 20, 2012 by TerryChastain

[Arthug]

Both of these are only Me on a target dummy no other players were influencing the dummy in any way.

 

Pre 1.2.0c

 

3 min on Target dummy

 

Heat seeker hit 11 times 4 crits

 

Max dmg 6252

min dmg 2622

avg 3758.82

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/4153?q=MXw0MTU...g2MDUzeDE=

 

Post patch

 

Heat seeker hit 11 times 6 crits

 

Max dmg 4889

Min Hit 2109

Avg Hit 3449.09

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/9428

 

 

It crit 2 more times, I have improved my gear since i did that intial one by adding 3 reflex armorings over commando armorings. and Added in a full piece of Black hole gear to my gloves. which changed a commando to a reflex. and still cant come close to what it was doing before.

 

my Min hit doesnt even reach the tool tip of 2158-2294

 

Im curious as how 55% armor reduction, 25% buff = less then even the tool tip dmg Their is another nerf going on here then what is intended or did you drop the dmg on Heatseeker missiles on top of fixing the stacking debuff dmg bonus

 

I am pretty sure we are not even recieving our bonus

 

*edit* to add the following

 

Min hit on second parse 2109 x 25% buff = 2636 just over the pre patch

max hit on second parse 4889x 25% buff = 6111 just under the pre patch

Edited April 20, 2012 by Arthug

[DavydM]

Oh one more thing, why did you double the cost of PVP medpaks? I use on average 4 medpaks per warzone thats 80 comms to replenish, at most I usually dont get much more than 100 comms from the warzone so I'm only makeing around 20-40 comms per warzone unless I give up on PVP medpaks and just use the lvl 46 medpaks from the stim vendor but they are crap in comparison

It's gonna take a bloody long time at this rate to get War Hero gear

[Militum]

Oh one more thing, why did you double the cost of PVP medpaks? I use on average 4 medpaks per warzone thats 80 comms to replenish, at most I usually dont get much more than 100 comms from the warzone so I'm only makeing around 20-40 comms per warzone unless I give up on PVP medpaks and just use the lvl 46 medpaks from the stim vendor but they are crap in comparison

It's gonna take a bloody long time at this rate to get War Hero gear

 

Because if they are cost prohibitive then people won't buy them - end result players die faster which was their goal.

 

George: People dying super fast is NOT fun - not sure why you all think otherwise. Yes there is an expertise ladder to climb but that is not really the issue. The issue is groups of DPS focus killing and no viable burst response to even try to mitigate it.

[DroidDreamer]

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

 

Thank you for this explanation. A lot of us had assumed that. I wanted to provide my opinion/feedback on this to help make this a better game:

 

Regardless of why TTK is faster, it's less fun than it was before. Longer, more strategic battles are more enjoyable. That's my opinion.

 

As for the emphasis on Expertise, I want to opine that I dislike it both ways: defense and offense. When I was in full Recruit gear, it was no fun to get quickly creamed by better geared players. As my gear improves, it's no fun to cream poorly geared players. If I could opt to play in PvP matches where everyone's gear was equal (similar to how in the 10-49 bracket everyone is leveled to the equivalent of 49), I would gladly do it.

 

Just my two cents. Hope it helps. Love this game.

[hargrave]

heres the problem i have george.

 

1. Gabe bleeped up ilum so we dont have any open world incentive

2. I dont think you understand or comprehend that doing the same warzones 2 billion times to get this "gear" is just not worth it. I just cant do warzones 24/7 i can barely do 2 a day tops and your trying to make the game be warzone exclusive and the main pvp. So even if i get the gear im just so supose to do more warzones? come on this is just stupid lol. Youve taken my incentive to pvp out of the game with the warzone obsession.

 

Btw i have champion gear and get destroyed just the same as without.

 

The reason people are dying so fast is you wont fix consulars/inquistiors rotation cycle all those class do is spam lightning/rocks with next to no cd. 90% the playerbase is the 2 classes and guess why? There hella op and you guys think its ok to have those classes be that way so all the gear/expertise in the world is meaningless when u have 2 Nuker classes with a high dps skill on next to nothing cd and people chain stunning you for 2 or more minutes. Resolve is broken.

 

The other reason is the cc im really dumbfounded that you guys didnt adress this in 1.2.

 

You say you listen to us?

The majority of people want expertise removed.

The majority of people think lvl 1-49 pvp is better then lvl 50 pvp

The majority of people think cons/inq need to do more then spam rocks/lightning (skill rotation)

The majority of people want cc/chain stunning adressed.

 

I dont care what you or gabe want for the game i care about what "us" the paying customers want and thier 2 very different things and the way i see it we appear to doing the game based on what you want? I though this game was made for the fans and what we want? Or this more bantha poo like the ranked warzones.

 

This is why people are dying so fast regardless of what patch and how much expertise its all irelevant to till u fix chainstuns and cons/inq skill rotations.

 

Prove me wrong take a poll. You guys need a serious wake up call quit screwing around and get this game going before its to late....

[Laylyn]

Are you seriously trying to glorify a two dimensional pvp system that revolves entirely around burst dps classes? The reason there were low kills before was a mixture of- extremely low burst classes, and bad players.

 

If you had good players playing burst classes pre-1.2, combat was still fast paced. The healer/tank teams only managed to stump played with no comprehension on CC, interrupts- who were also in bad gear/bad players/classes with no burst.

 

If all classes could compete with marauders in terms of burst/pressure, then even pre-1.2 healing would still be far too weak. However, when you look at sorc burst and see the abiilty to crit over 2.5k once every 15 seconds- and average tics under 1k- from their perspective 1.2 was nowhere near enough to make them viable in killing a team with a single healer.... while marauders can take out half a team of healers.

 

It's problematic that some dps ACs will still face healers and find them untouchable, while others currently find them a breeze barely worth noting- healers should be as valuable as any other player.

 

The expertise change is minimal. As noted here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665

 

They adjusted the attack to defense numbers to deal with the way damage is calculated and then mitigated. Prior to 1.2 you got too much of a expertise defensive boost, which was further aggravated by healing stats that have no real mitigation in game.

 

There are other tricks people are using to inflate damage as noted in © of Georg's post here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4066157#edit4066157 People have been stacking things like that since TOR's beta. The truth is it was far worse in the past.

 

This need to be Superman in a pvp environment is a symptom of players getting used to an old WOW stat called resilence, that mitigated vanilla WOW's obsession with burst, and as an unintended consequence, made healing king because there was no heal counter that was perpetual the way the resilence stat was.

 

It made 80% healing teams common in BGS in WOW, especially during the endless mana days of WOTLK. It made the same kinds of teams or healer / mitigation teams common here.

 

It also made something else common here. It's called focusing fire on targets and mass debuffing them, which is what George was talking about in (d) of that post.

 

In a paper, rocks, scissors match up, burst dps and debuffs is the only way to drop tank protected healers. Your listed marauders example above has to do with a class doing what it is designed to do.

 

Further, they probably did it with support. Marauder's class type has had to use support since launch...

 

Prior to 1.2, there were situations were people would focus fire on individuals, 4 v 1 and still not drop them. That silly version of the game is what most people are crying about wanting here.

 

P.S. In your pre 1.2 healer take down strat, the opposing team's healers just have to hit one button to remove the CC. Trust me, as someone who mains on healers, I can keep fighting until you are OOM easy with just one or two healers as backup. The inclusion of pvp viable tanks in this game has made it even easier than any game before it.

 

[Vid-szhite]

Hey guys,

 

A few additional notes on this topic, fresh from a meeting with Gabe and the PvP team.

 

(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

 

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

 

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

 

This has been my finding as well. What isn't as perfectly clear is that Recruit gear is also better than Champion gear because of TTK issues. When 1.2 hit, I was almost entirely Champ + Battlemaster with a piece or two of Columi (bracers and implant at most), and I was getting destroyed just like everyone else, despite having over 700 Expertise. However, once I replaced just two pieces with Battlemaster (Implant, Champ Gloves), I was right back to where I was before. Not even full Battlemaster, but sitting at 960 Expertise, and suddenly I was perfectly fine. That's how important Expertise is now: even Champion gear is inferior because it doesn't have enough of it. The most annoying part is, people are still wearing their Rakata in PvP and refuse (refuse!) to switch to Recruit gear, even after I told them that they will get decimated in Rakata even as a Tank, and proved myself right by proceeding to decimate them.

 

Unfortunately, trying to communicate just what a difference Expertise makes now is almost impossible, because people see 10% and they go "oh 10% is all I needed pre patch so that's no big deal I have all I need", so when friends of mine say they feel like they were overnerfed or that other classes are overpowered (my Marauder friend thinks Sorcs are OP, ironically enough), I tell them "get more expertise, you NEED to stack it to be competitive now," and their response is always "but I already have 500 Expertise!" They just can't fathom that having 500 Expertise vs 1000 Expertise is INSANE now. None of them will listen to me when I tell them exactly what you have told me, and none of them will ever learn until they see it for themselves. They don't realize that the difference between 500 Expertise and 1000 Expertise is the same exact gap as Pre-1.2 Battlemaster was versus Tionese gear: you'd get utterly destroyed as the guy in Tionese. Only now, people think their Champ + Centurion is still enough because it's technically PvP gear and was enough pre-1.2.

 

I think the only way to communicate the reality that Cent gear sucks now is to remove its expertise completely. You might as well, since it's about as useful either way.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[BigSkill]

That was precisely the point of my post: 900 expertise is worth a lot. The difference of 900 expertise in PvP is a lot more pronounced than additional 200 health from higher endurance on Centurion gear.

 

Recruit is on par, if not better than Centurion gear when it comes to PvP due to the importance of expertise post 1.2. (It replaced Centurion gear). Yes, you're missing out on a bunch of health and PvE stats and a set bonus, but the difference in expertise that affects survivability, healing and damage makes up for it.

 

Tionese, Centurion and Champion are identical to 1.1.5 now (a bug related to the stats on that gear changing was fixed in the last patch).

 

Georg what about the perma Stun situation and the resolve bar?

Is it working as intended? To be stunnned 5 - 6 times ?

Casting class are suffering a lot for this, 1 stun is ok 2 mmm ok, 3 nope..... usually as a sorc im dead after the first stun ...... You programmer have to play on the PvP server for check the situation......

[Skolops]

heres the problem i have george.

 

1. Gabe bleeped up ilum so we dont have any open world incentive

2. I dont think you understand or comprehend that doing the same warzones 2 billion times to get this "gear" is just not worth it. I just cant do warzones 24/7 i can barely do 2 a day tops and your trying to make the game be warzone exclusive and the main pvp. So even if i get the gear im just so supose to do more warzones? come on this is just stupid lol. Youve taken my incentive to pvp out of the game with the warzone obsession.

 

Btw i have champion gear and get destroyed just the same as without.

 

The reason people are dying so fast is you wont fix consulars/inquistiors rotation cycle all those class do is spam lightning/rocks with next to no cd. 90% the playerbase is the 2 classes and guess why? There hella op and you guys think its ok to have those classes be that way so all the gear/expertise in the world is meaningless when u have 2 Nuker classes with a high dps skill on next to nothing cd and people chain stunning you for 2 or more minutes. Resolve is broken.

 

The other reason is the cc im really dumbfounded that you guys didnt adress this in 1.2.

 

You say you listen to us?

The majority of people want expertise removed.

The majority of people think lvl 1-49 pvp is better then lvl 50 pvp

The majority of people think cons/inq need to do more then spam rocks/lightning (skill rotation)

The majority of people want cc/chain stunning adressed.

 

I dont care what you or gabe want for the game i care about what "us" the paying customers want and thier 2 very different things and the way i see it we appear to doing the game based on what you want? I though this game was made for the fans and what we want? Or this more bantha poo like the ranked warzones.

 

This is why people are dying so fast regardless of what patch and how much expertise its all irelevant to till u fix chainstuns and cons/inq skill rotations.

 

Prove me wrong take a poll. You guys need a serious wake up call quit screwing around and get this game going before its to late....

 

I don't know whether or not the majority of people want expertise removed, but I do know that the majority of people definitely don't think 1 - 49 WZs are better than 50. Honestly, the level of play in 1-49 WZs is SO bad compared to what it is in 50 that if someone can say 1 - 49 are better, he just doesn't understand warzones.

 

I also have to say, as someone who thinks Sorcs have OP CC, I think their DPS is not that good and ieven to the degre it is, its easily interupptable.

 

CCing is a problem, especially from the OP AoE Sorc snare, which I think is probably the silliest ability in the game for PvP.

[Vid-szhite]

Georg what about the perma Stun situation and the resolve bar?

Is it working as intended? To be stunnned 5 - 6 times ?

Casting class are suffering a lot for this, 1 stun is ok 2 mmm ok, 3 nope..... usually as a sorc im dead after the first stun ...... You programmer have to play on the PvP server for check the situation......

 

This isn't a thread to b*tch about being stunned for the millionth time, this is all about TTK.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[TheRiddick]

I was at first totally surprised by the TTK in 1.2, i would get melted as a sniper dps, BUT i got the full BM set for my sniper and now I am working out my Jug, I am tank specced and Mainly work on prot healers. Me and a healer who i was guarding and using taunt, single handedly held off 3/4 the enemy team on a turret the entire game, without a death, we played smart, used good cc, and TTK was non existent. best game I have ever played, walked away with 268k prot, and 18 medals... was amazing

[KiranK]

This isn't a thread to b*tch about being stunned for the millionth time, this is all about TTK.

 

Right, because stuns have nothing at all to do with TTK. Good logic there, brah.

[BigSkill]

I don't know whether or not the majority of people want expertise removed, but I do know that the majority of people definitely don't think 1 - 49 WZs are better than 50. Honestly, the level of play in 1-49 WZs is SO bad compared to what it is in 50 that if someone can say 1 - 49 are better, he just doesn't understand warzones.

 

I also have to say, as someone who thinks Sorcs have OP CC, I think their DPS is not that good and ieven to the degre it is, its easily interupptable.

 

CCing is a problem, especially from the OP AoE Sorc snare, which I think is probably the silliest ability in the game for PvP.

If there still are person that say sage/ sorc are OP i will Say TRY Before to talk.

 

There is only 1 tree viable that do damage, Healing is almost dead, hybrid is death, we are so weak that you dont have any idea.... The bubble desappear at the first shot, and almost every dps class can kill sorc/healer, the heavy number of CC and Higher damage plus the low DPS burst compared the others classes is a ****.

At least on PvP server, prob in PvE server is different.

[Thordomr]

I've been seeing a lot of dubious math considering the changes to expertise in patch 1.2 so I would like to post my take on what the goal of the changes actually are for 1.2.

 

I'm making one assumption on how the damage calculation works: expertise is multaplicative.

 

Thus the formula for deriving how much damage you take is based on the following formula:

 

(AttackDmg)*(1+AttackExp)*(1-DefExp)*(1-DmgReduction) = DmgRecieved

 

And for the sake of argument I will be ignoring armor/resistance because they are unaffected by expertise. So that leaves the formula as:

 

(AttackDmg)*(1+AttackExp)*(1-DefExp) = AdjustedDmgRecieved

 

So pre-1.2 the battlemaster gear gave ~11% to all three categories. So pluging this into the formula as % values we find that expertise was behaving this way for the values of expertise that were available.

 

(100)*(1.11)*(1-0.11) = 98.79%

 

If they had just relaxed the dmr curve for expertise and allowed the pvp bonuses to grow evenly ending up with new battlemaster gear giving 22% to all three. It would lead to damage being reduced across the board in fights between similarly geared players.

 

(100)*(1.22)*(1-0.22) = 95.16%

 

Now I assume everyone is now thinking, "so what does it matter if everyone's damage is reduced?"

 

the problem comes from the fact that healers would also be putting out 22% more healing. Healing is unchecked by pvp bonuses.

 

With the new values of the pvp buff what is indeed happening is that the damage is being brought closer inline to what people thought was happening with expertise pre-1.2. Dulfy has an excellent chart in this article detailing the gearing changes. http://dulfy.net/2012/03/22/pvp-gearing-in-1-2/

 

With the new values of expertise on BM gear (22% dmg, 18% reduction) the cancelling is indeed happening like it was before 1.2.

 

(100)*(1+0.22)*(1-0.18) = 100.04%

 

For WH gear the same is true.

 

(100)*(1+0.24)*(1-0.195) = 99.82%

 

So as these two curves continue the stats do indeed cancel each other when two characters with equal amounts of expertise are fighting each other 1v1.

 

Since this is getting kind of long I'll break this into a few posts.

 

Summary: The new damage curves actually lead to 2 characters at equal levels of expertise doing exactly 100% of their pre-buffed damage to each other as the expertise buff cancel with the new dmr curves.

 

Next I'll take a look at what happens when characters of different gear levels meet each other 1v1.

 

This was posted in a thread I had created. If these formulas are true and this is the reason you changed the damage increase/reduction of expertise why didn't you leave it the same. Wouldn't an extra 5% mitigation help with the current TTK issues? You reduced the effectiveness of healing which would allow for less up time and then adjust the expertise mitigation by 5% across the board. Why not just bump the damage and reduction levels back to what they were pre 1.2 meaning make them even. I hesitate to say this seems like a simple fix but it would seem like the quickest to implement rather than finding where all the unintended extra damage is coming from.

 

Better yet why not just make expertise even across all gear and let the base stats determine it's effectiveness. That way expertise would truly cancel out and make the base stats the main focus of gear quality. This way no matter how much better the gear gets it will always be best for pvp and it would give you one less stat to consider when balancing the stat inflation.