creng Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 The same action repeated, expecting different results is insane. I do feel after days of continuing to pvp, and still getting 0 for rewards, that the devs at BW were insane to let this patch go through like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
symke Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I agree! Don't do anything drastic. Just rebalance those rewards a little like OP said. It will do wonders for PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallach Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 They ought to pay this guy a month of the PvP team's salary and just task them to reading this and doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Every single match has 4 people leave after the first two minutes when there's any sign you might lose. Makes it not fun for everyone who stayed, makes it suck completely for the people who get out of a ten minute queue to join in a losing match halfway through, sometimes not having the time to get 3 medals. It stings as a healer- I've played every class as dps, enjoyed the extreme ease of hybrids and tanks, and relative ease of dps to get medals. Getting medals as a healer is brutal- almost all the new medals only are gained through attacking- for example, in huttball, there's no medals for healing someone who kills a ball carrier, but there is for damaging that carrier once before he dies. I don't like that, as a healer, I'm forced to stop healing to throw out absolutely garbage dps... just to get 3-4 medals... which barely gets me any reward anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemmingLeader Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Roll PVP rewards back to pre1.2 levels, and you'll get participation again with people hanging to fight to the bitter end. Simple. Or keep the current ruleset and maintain the current shennanigans. Nobody complained about rewards before 1.2 went into effect. Yet the devs broke it completely. An mmorpg should encourage participation in pvp, not stifle it. Edited April 16, 2012 by LemmingLeader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Nemo- Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 /signed I really hope the devs consider this and make appropriate adjustments asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serbegorn Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Well said OP. I hope they listen. Although I'm not holding my breath. I predict a deserter debuff will be added asap. ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuey Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) /signed. Nice to see someone coherent and sensible take the reigns once in awhile. There's been so much forum bashing going on it's turned into an absolute farce of late. Edit: Though I do want to point out that the example you made of professional sportsmen is an odd comparison to make as we're not doing this for as a profession but rather for entertainment. But if anything that should only strengthen your position as since it's for entertainment purposes only killing the enjoyment factor for the losers starts making them question the reasons they're actually playing this game since it's no longer fulfilling it's originally intended purpose. Losing may not be as enjoyable as winning, but it should still be enjoyable. Edited April 16, 2012 by kuey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dprijadi Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 i agree with this post and OP's clear way of stating stuff without reverting to emotion and anger. this is the kind of post that BIOWARE PVP DEV TEAM should read and consider. Congrats OP on stating in clear and concise way the problem that many of us experienced and yet we cannot say it in such clear format. /salute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twin Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) I think the winning team should get significally better rewarded compared to a losing team. -But- Not in gear/credit progression! Imo, there should be a separate "currency", that only can be gotten from winning, with a new vendor that sells desirable rewards that has nothing to do with gear/credits. Stuff like pvp titles, vanity items, emotes, abilities, uniqe cool moddable armor/weapon parts etc etc. Could even be slight combat enhancing stuff like datacrons that give a small boost to certain stats - as long as it doesnt overpower the buyer compared to someone without it. OR The winning team could get significally better rewarded (Maybe medal value x 2) in comms and credits - but the losing team should still get rewarded enough to progress as fast and steady as they did pre-1.2. Otherwise its nothing short of a nerf to inexperienced, bad and unlucky players... Gear and credit progression should never be halted like it can be now, if you're bad/inexperienced or unlucky. Doing that will allways discourage those categories to continue, resulting in fewer player actually getting good/experienced. The zero payout for credits...i dont get that one at all. It's like if they would remove the credits you looted during a pve quest just because you failed the quest boss...Also i've seen several times that i get zero credits even though i do get some Valor and Comms when losing a match? Thats my oppinion. //Twin Edited April 16, 2012 by Twin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GliganJedi Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 /signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaygeV Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I hope they listen to the OP, their suggestions sound like a game I'd like the play. Not going anywhere regardless, love this game, but PvP is looking a lot less appealing when the gear gap as that huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGiblin Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I agree with this post very much. If you want a example of the "Gear race" come to The Jek and see the 50 pvp, it's not uncommon for the Empire players to run a 4-7 losses for every 1 win, and that's on a good day. Empire nearly never wins in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymath Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'm not entirely convinced about re-tying the gear to Valor, but the OP's suggestions on how to handle Comm, XP & Credit Rewards is excellent! Great post, definitely not TLDR! /signed (can i do that more than once!? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oshimo Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 they closed my thread started before this one and claimed "need to consolidate as the reason" I do not want the content lost so I'm reposting it here: Hours of grinding in level 50 starter gear ... for 0 commendations | 04.13.2012 , 08:51 PM Seriously? Hours of grinding doing my hardest to help my teammates in starter 50 gear for 0 commendations, 0 credits, 0 legacy experience? Seriously, this is the 1.2 legacy pvp improvements we were promised? Diverbuoy <sweeps hand> "Feel the force of these words, surround you, bind you, consume you they will, forever they will dominate your destiny." paul_preib Joined: Nov 2011 04.13.2012 , 09:13 PM A few stomp fests should yield zero potentially, but if you were grinding warzones for hours even in losses you should have come away with some comms/valor/$$. I agree the current levels seem rather out of whack when you can rack up 8-10 medals trying your darndest against a team that just happens to be better and still at times come away with less than 40 comms. But 0 over hours.... it shifts the argument to hyperbole or an incomprehensible array of ineptitude. Neither of those options serves the the overall argument of this concern particularly well. Oshimo Joined: Jan 2010 04.13.2012 , 09:29 PM I'm a starter 50, I get 2 shotted. I run in do my best to help, CC, AOE, work my arse off ... there is no reward for hardwork, no reward for participation, no reward for effort. Only by threading the needle of pure luck to hit achievements can you get a couple of commendations. (None of which I can get in baby 50 gear while being paired with War Heroes). Diverbuoy <sweeps hand> "Feel the force of these words, surround you, bind you, consume you they will, forever they will dominate your destiny." paul_preib Joined: Nov 2011 04.13.2012 , 09:44 PM Quote: Originally Posted by Oshimo I'm a starter 50, I get 2 shotted. I run in do my best to help, CC, AOE, work my arse off ... there is no reward for hardwork, no reward for participation, no reward for effort. Only by threading the needle of pure luck to hit achievements can you get a couple of commendations. (None of which I can get in baby 50 gear while being paired with War Heroes). No one has war hero gear yet, if anyone has any pieces they'd have pvp'ed virtually nonstop since 1.2 went live to be able to afford one piece. SOme may look like they have war hero gear (my sorc has the orange craftable helm/chestpiece with BM mods in it) but I guarantee that a very small number of people have 1 and the number with two pieces are in single digits, possibly none. I also have to ask, when you stay 'starter 50' did you buy the 50 starter pvp set or do you mean just dinged 50 and in basic gear you arrived at? The starter pvp set (which only costs money not commendations) actually has a comparable amount of expertise, the primary pvp stat. It is lacking in other areas (endurance/your primary class stat, etc.) but the amount of expertise is enough to be functional against all but a brutally efficient premade. Again I am not saying I think the current rewards are fine so much as just that the absolutes of the post feel off. Along with my sorc I've pvped on a second character that was in mostly champion gear (i.e. the now defunct tier of gear below BM that put me nearly 300 expertise below the current norm) and was still able to be functional and contributory enough that I netted some number of commendations in all but one warzone. Getting two-shotted means you are consistently being hit for at least 7,000-- and even on the top geared characters there are not many that will knock out that number halfway consistently let alone back to back. Oshimo Joined: Jan 2010 ... wow thanks for addressing the problem | Yesterday , 11:06 PM The grind is easily 2x - 3x longer than it was with the changes. You can spend 20 min in a WZ grinding hard, doing damage capturing bases, CCing, helping defend, and get nothing, nil, nada, squat ... that's the new system - strong work bioware on this design. And now more than ever people abandon which forces you to take over in a losing game where you have no hope of catching up and getting 3 badges. And yes troopers do 7k per hit easily owning you hard. A friend of mine has 8 pieces of War Hero all ready. He got 6 Thursday morning by saving every weekly and daily for turn in on thursday morning, then premades for 8+ hours a day all weekend. He's a trooper and doing 8+ k crits now. Diverbuoy <sweeps hand> "Feel the force of these words, surround you, bind you, consume you they will, forever they will dominate your destiny." Ellvaan Joined: Oct 2011 Yesterday , 11:35 PM Greetings everyone! In the interest of consolidating feedback regarding these changes in Game Update 1.2, we are going to close this thread and ask that you please continue this discussion here: What is wrong with the new Warzone rewards? What can be done to fix the problem? The penalties for losing are TOO severe Please feel free to copy and paste any constructive feedback in one of the above threads. Thank you! Ellvaan | Community Representative Follow us on Twitter @SWTOR | Like us on Facebook [Contact Us] [Rules of Conduct] [F.A.Q.] [Dev Tracker] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boonfiftytwo Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 100% agree with the OP. Unfortunately for me, its too late for all that. Even any fix they bring in now will still see a problematic gear disparity, and this game is entirely gear based. My server has been face rolled since 1.2, it is literally 8 or 9 losses to 1 win. This means gear gap widens, the scenario you described is exactly already here and getting worse. Anything they bring in now will be too little too late, I am unsubscribing and I'm happy to say it's largely due to the pvp imbalance. There are other issues, but being someone who enjoys mostly pvp, I just see no point being here and being steamrolled 80% of the time, and as you say I can just see it getting worse and worse, in fact it has got increasingly worse as the week progressed. So bioware pay attention, you ARE losing customers, right now, Im one of them, and I wont be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oshimo Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Take a lesson from the mmo's before ... As people queue to start a WZ match ... start the match only with equal teams. You do not have to have 8 slots which must be filled. on low pop servers this means a match might start with 4 v 4 (or whatever minimum is required). Then as 1 each from both factions queues, you can add them together as a pair. Benefits: Equal teams Faction imbalance is 'aided' by longer queue times for the larger population faction (which could translate to more migration to the smaller opposing faction) Games run to completion with less quitting (due to lopsided teams) more come from behind victories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heebicka Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 really really strange system a voidstar yesterday,started with defending, we didn't let them pass first doors. (IMHO this is best possible defending in the game) as attacker we pass through first within two minutes. Was top with damage,kills, and maybe 1st or 2nd with objectives. I was planting that bomb. Got 18 medals (personal record), 2 mpv votes ....and I got something like 65-68 commendations.... (Don't remeber exact numbers,but I have screenshots at home) Next game, a huttball, really lousy game, both teams without team play, we managed to win somehow, Got some usuall amount of medals (7-9), I was somewhere in lower middle of score table with damage, kills, objectives, everything. + one mpv ....and I got 101 commendations, full load + one for mpv... I am pretty sure my contribution to the team play was lower in game I got more rewards. But we end first game within 10minutes wich gives us ******** of medals, second game was full time huttball, looks to me commendation reward depends on how long you stay in wz without any relation to win-loss-contribution to team or game or whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockazilla Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) I agree. I cannot readily discern the objectives of the "3 medal for reward" system or the "losing side gets 0 credits, less reward". I am guessing this was done to increase active participation, and lower the number of those quitting, AFKing, or not actively going after the goals in the WZ. The method used is categorized at "negative reinforcement" in the domain of behavior modification, where there is punishment to encourage players from doing the undesired activity, e.g. losing or deserting. The flip side of this is "positive reinforcement", which rewards players for doing the desired activity, e.g. winning or sticking it out. Overall, I find extreme loss of interest for myself (and I think others feel the same) because of the new 1.2 system. The wait for matches is now longer, and people are quitting constantly. I hope that BW can consider the social aspects of system and rollback, rather than trying to patch or adjust the system, whose basis for construction (negative reinforcement or punishment) is fundamentally flawed (at least for MMO as players I'm guessing don't pay with time or money to get punished). In my personal experience before 1.2 (which I think is shared by many), I used to run on a variety of lowbie toons (level 30s) to at least get the daily, and sometimes gear up for level 20 / level 40 gear items that are useful in PvE. The experience and credit rewards was an good positive incentive. I now have little interest, with the new reward system (losing = 0 credits, xp rewards from daily reduced). For my level 50 toon (10 champ pieces, rest cent pieces), I crawled my way past the gear barrier pre-1.2, but now my interest / incentive to participate is severely reduced, as sometimes there are cicrumstances where I don't get 3 medals (steamrolled in Huttball, late entry into match that is almost over). It's a serious time sink, so I put my attention more into story, PvE, space missions, and crafting part of the game and leave PvP altogether. Edited April 16, 2012 by Shockazilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klingers Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Absolutely fantastic, well-articulated post. As for me, rather than blustering over it and threatening to unsubscribe, I actually have unsubscribed. Bioware have about a week to fix this lunacy or they've lost me for good. Plenty of other good games out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtfnonamefree Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Ah, the good ol' mmo gamers & professional athletes analogy... It is not your job to do wz. If it does feel like a chore - there's your problem. That analogy would be legit, if you were, say a professional sc player in Korea, who wouldn't receive his paycheck after lost matches. Actually, wouldn't such a thing happen in the long run - getting kicked out if he doesn't live up to the expectations? That fishy analogy aside - I have no problem with them raising the rewards for losing again. If it really upsets so many people, then change it. It's a game, it should be fun and it should appease the biggest chunk of the population possible. In my opinion it just makes more sense the way it is now, as it adresses many other concerns (e.g. 'winning/losing doesn't matter' was a frequent complaint). Also, some people are too concerned about gear all the time. It does make a difference, but the recruit set eases the entry, bm is quite accessible and wh is not that much of an upgrade in the raw stat gain (though it is in the stat type department tbh). In a mirror 1v1 - both players of equal skill - recruit loses vs bm, no question. But this is only when equally skilled and only in 1v1 - wz scenarios are different. Still I am totally ok with everyone being on equal footing - it's just that this alienates another huge chunk of the community (the carrot chasers). And many complainees will find out, that their situation doesn't magically change to the better, once they're decked out with gear. I have yet to see those 'zeros across the board' everyone talks about. As I usually run with 3 buddies (it's an mmo after all..) and we all do nothing but pvp, the losses are not very frequent, but if there is one, it yields ~40 comms. The screens of the 'zero losses' are gimmicky games (e.g. a full duration 0:1 voidstar where the losing team had a combined killcount of '1'...) and are not the norm, as they get propagated here. So, if the current reward ratio of losing is 40% - how much more do you think it should be then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylez Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Great OP!!! I would summarize it along the line of this, of course the amount of the rewards would be tweaked, but just an example: As you read the posts in here one thing is very clear. People are upset that the PVP game has turned into beat the system rather than the player. As an example: My goal is to get gear. I need comms for gear. If I play a WZ and I lose spending 15 minutes doing so, I can't achieve my goal within a reasonable amount of time. Therefore, I will leave the WZ and try and find one that is winning so I can get comms so I can get my gear. So, I join and leave, join and leave, join and leave to earn my reward. Notice anything horrific about this? People are trying to find a way to work the system and beat it, and emphasis is no longer on the game play or beating other players. This is a design problem that BW has created. Solution: You could enforce a leaving penalty, which in the end hurts people who dc and will simply take the more causal player out of pvp altogher and make longer que times. Or, you could balance the rewards along the line of something like this: 1. A set number of credits/comms/xp/valor per medal. (500/20/1000/300) 2. A set number of credits/comms/xp/valor for an mvp vote. (1000/50/1000/1000) 3. A set number of credits/comms/xp/valor for a win and a loss. (1000/50/2000/500) - (250/30/500/500) Make these numbers clear and expected so that I understand the risk and reward of winning or losing a match. Right now there is no incentive to stay in a losing match and you try and beat the system to get a winning match... That is it. If people knew the system took care of it self and gave you the reasonable opportunity to earn gear, then the game would focus again on beating the player. Of coure we would not solve the issues of geared players vs ungeared players or people complaining about op and nerfed classes, but at least we would be talking about the player and not the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtfnonamefree Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 1. A set number of credits/comms/xp/valor per medal. (500/20/1000/300) 2. A set number of credits/comms/xp/valor for an mvp vote. (1000/50/1000/1000) 3. A set number of credits/comms/xp/valor for a win and a loss. (1000/50/2000/500) - (250/30/500/500) At the moment you get 100/40 comms for a win/loss. In your model a conservative 12 medal win plus one mvp would grant 340 comms and a 12 medal loss plus one mvp vote would grant 320 comms. In essence your proposal is to triple the income rate and give winners and losers the same rewards...is that really what you want? Also, the medal count is highly influenced by the specific map and the spec/role you fill - making the rewards scale with the medals without a cap again would be a bad move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedJedi Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Ah, the good ol' mmo gamers & professional athletes analogy... It is not your job to do wz. If it does feel like a chore - there's your problem. That analogy would be legit, if you were, say a professional sc player in Korea, who wouldn't receive his paycheck after lost matches. Actually, wouldn't such a thing happen in the long run - getting kicked out if he doesn't live up to the expectations? That fishy analogy aside - I have no problem with them raising the rewards for losing again. If it really upsets so many people, then change it. It's a game, it should be fun and it should appease the biggest chunk of the population possible. In my opinion it just makes more sense the way it is now, as it adresses many other concerns (e.g. 'winning/losing doesn't matter' was a frequent complaint). The problem with looking at it with the attitude that I'm referring to it as a "job" is that it misses the entire point of the analogy, which is that for any activity which requires an investment of time or effort on behalf of its participants, there is a reasonable expectation for adequate compensation (whether tangible, in the form of Comms, credits, etc. or intangible) for that time and effort. Winning should carry some reward, as this encourages healthy competition and development of skill, but losing should not be punished, either at the time of defeat or in the long-term (in terms of gear progression), as the system currently promotes. If you don't care for the professional sports analogy, how about this one: Two people like to drag race cars (a leisure activity, much like playing an MMO). A local drag strip decides to sponsor a series of races, to encourage more of the local population to get involved, and pick these two people to be the track's representatives. The track buys both drivers a car, provides a crew, fuel, and all the other things that a drag racer might need, then tells them to have fun. For the first few races, the drivers (who are roughly equal in skill), split victories about 50/50, and it starts to become popular, so more local drivers start entering the races. The track (who is still the sponsor of our two drivers) decides that, because it wants its drivers to remain competitive, they are going to send funding their way to upgrade their vehicles and stay at the top of their game. Time goes on and the two drivers, with their slowly improving vehicles and skills, still fare about 50/50 versus each other, but win 75/25 against the rest; everybody has fun, and the track is happy as more and more people get involved. Then, everything changes... The track gets bought out, and the new owners decide that they want to change the way they fund their sponsored drivers, and tell them that their funding will now be based on their success rate. For whatever reason, one of our drivers does not get to compete as often, while the other still races regularly, and keeps his high winning average against the locals. With the extra funding that the second driver takes in, he is able to upgrade his vehicle and crew on a regular basis. Now, whenever our first driver comes back, he finds that the second driver has been able to move ahead of him in 'gear', even though they are still relatively equal in terms of skill, and starts to lose to the second driver, more often than he wins. With each successive loss to the second driver, the gap only widens further, as the second driver keeps raking in additional funding, until, eventually, the first driver realizes that he simply cannot compete against the second driver, despite the fact that their skill remains similar. I give you patch 1.2... True, it isn't a job, it's something that we all like to do for fun, but a part of having fun, even in a leisure activity (but, especially, in a competitive leisure activity), is being able to derive value (whether in a physical or emotional sense) from said activity. If a group of ten guys are standing around on a basketball court, how long will they take turns shooting the basketball? Two minutes, tops? What do they do instead? They form two teams of five and start playing a game. Do they keep score? You bet they do, because the competition makes it much more fun. Does it matter that the only thing they are playing for is pride? Yes, in the sense that even in a fun game, you still (should) want to play to win; no, in the sense that win or lose, both teams will enjoy the game, regardless of which side they are on, both teams value the experience of the game. Also, some people are too concerned about gear all the time. It does make a difference, but the recruit set eases the entry, bm is quite accessible and wh is not that much of an upgrade in the raw stat gain (though it is in the stat type department tbh). In a mirror 1v1 - both players of equal skill - recruit loses vs bm, no question. But this is only when equally skilled and only in 1v1 - wz scenarios are different. Still I am totally ok with everyone being on equal footing - it's just that this alienates another huge chunk of the community (the carrot chasers). And many complainees will find out, that their situation doesn't magically change to the better, once they're decked out with gear. I have yet to see those 'zeros across the board' everyone talks about. As I usually run with 3 buddies (it's an mmo after all..) and we all do nothing but pvp, the losses are not very frequent, but if there is one, it yields ~40 comms. The screens of the 'zero losses' are gimmicky games (e.g. a full duration 0:1 voidstar where the losing team had a combined killcount of '1'...) and are not the norm, as they get propagated here. So, if the current reward ratio of losing is 40% - how much more do you think it should be then? Our problem arises here, in that gear is both a carrot (progression-based and purchased with the currency that you receive from participation in Warzones) and a means of playing on a level playing field. When both sides have equal gear, skill will appropriately affect the outcome; when one side has a significant gear advantage, skill is devalued to the point of utter irrelevance. It is like taking our pick-up basketball game and gradually giving one side steroids through the course of the game. It starts out making little, if any difference, but, eventually, the side that is getting the competitive advantage, even though it only scales slowly, will eventually be unbeatable by the team that did not receive the same advantage. I 100% agree with you that acquisition of gear is not going to suddenly keep the average PuG from getting rolled by a good premade; however, giving equal access to gear gives value to the time and effort that those PuGs put in, even when they get rolled. The current problem is that those same players are being actively punished for getting rolled (in some cases, receiving no rewards), being hindered from even acquiring the gear to move onto a more level playing field, and their opponents, who already had an advantage, are being given twice or more rewards (and, by extension, access) that allow them to progress even further up the gear chain. Losing and getting nearly no rewards means that a player has invested time and effort, but receives little or no value in return. When an activity, especially a leisure activity, loses value, the individual will simply move on from that activity, rarely (if ever) to return. Without changes (or, worse, without changes and the addition of a deserter debuff), casuals will stop playing PvP; semi-hardcores on the stronger faction will play until the weaker faction stops playing altogether, then stop playing once it becomes same vs. same at all times; until only the hardcores are left, and even they will stop playing once queue times reach ridiculous lengths (we are already seeing the increases, especially in 10-49). Again, it's obvious that you want their to be healthy, competitive PvP in this game, as we all do, but the system as it is, rewards only 'gaming' the system, rather than true competition, and we all want to see things improve. Ultimately, it comes down to a simple question: Is it better to always steamroll your opponents, or would you rather play against strong competition and, win or lose, have a great time, deriving value from the experience? -BRJ Edited April 16, 2012 by BigRedJedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawtmama Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Ultimately, it comes down to a simple question: Is it better to always steamroll your opponents, or would you rather play against strong competition and, win or lose, have a great time, deriving value from the experience? -BRJ This....I don't care if I win or lose, but if I have no fun while doing it (IE...some rewards, good fun fights etc.), then I am not going to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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