Who Swtor was made for.

[thebigdoubleu]

In my book, the vast majority of you guys posting here are "hardcore". Anyone who cares enough about gaming to post in forums is hardcore in my opinion.

 

Furthermore, I would argue that the vast majority of MMO gamers are hardcore. To be a MMO gamer IS to be "hardcore" by definition! Sure, you get a few types like one of the above posters who "have kids, a family, a job" etc and like to pretend they aren't hardcore, but the fact that the few hours of free time that they do have . . . hours they could be spending with the kids, they instead game just makes them even more hardcore than the rest of us! Hats off to you!

 

So any MMO that tries to appeal only to these so-called "casual" gamers at the expense of hardcore types is really a MMO that has turned its back its playerbase, like a Republican who is worried about global warming.

 

I don't have facts or figures, none of us do. But what is immediately clear is that the general consensus around the MMO world -- other than here (and perhaps even here!) -- is that swtor is in serious trouble. Go to any mmo forums other than these forums and that is what you hear. Whether it is true or not I can't say, but that is overwhelmingly what I hear. And price of EA stock has done nothing but drop steadily since its release.

 

You make a good point about "hardcore" and "casual" gamers. I suppose to many of my friends could see me as a hardcore gamer for spending time on a game forums, doing research on game mechanics, etc even though someone who enjoys raiding and doing difficult content would regard me as a casual player, since I have essentially no more interest in raiding after years of WoW.

 

I think it's important to remember that many "casuals" spend just as much time as a "hardcore" player in game. Instead of raiding, these players may be playing for the social aspect of MMOs, questing, or PvP.

 

I think the problem with current MMO culture is that raiding has become the definition of a hardcore MMO gamer, but in reality, it really encompasses much more than that. It's good to keep that in mind.

Edited April 10, 2012 by thebigdoubleu

[Elyx]

fantastic Post OP. sorry that you have to deal with some ignorant rants through the thread. You bring up some very solid and relevant points.

 

I have raided in my 10 yrs or so in the MMO field, and done many other things as well. I sort of fall into a niche category myself atm (hardcore crafter and GMT...possibly even smaller then the raiding community). But I've done it all, and enjoyed it at various times in my MMO experience.

 

I think the quote has a great deal of insight. in a competitive MMO field, it's probably not worth a company taking the risk with the degree of budget you need nowadays on a niche group. it's most likely why MMO's still follow traditional mechanics, and only "extend" themselves out a little bit. they build a solid foundation...then once they have that foundation built, and a prove-able customer base (data that's more then a few months worth), they start to add those elemtents that may cater to those niche groups.

 

Games also IMO have to make a choice at some point. certain game elements simply do not fit with others. As an example, a robust crafting environment doesn't really fit well in a mold with a progressive raiding environment. to cater to one fully enough that the niche group is satisfied will often alienate the other group. PvP vs. PvE is another perfect example.

 

Games Like WoW try to balance out for all, but end up never completely satisfying any. it's being vanilla (scuze the pun) for the sake of giving a flavor to everyone. those that simply want chocolate are stuck...sure vanilla is OK...but where's the chocolate?

 

And companies that attempt to hit a sweet spot with a niche group often fail...sometimes miserably...Conan anyone? I have yet to see any game get so close to complete extinction just out of the door. Not dissing the game...it had many innovations i thought were fascinating. but it still almost died. I actually quit playing because they were doing patches so much, so rapidly, that I would spend half of my game time every night waiting for the patching to finish.

 

TL - DR = good job...feel for ya, being in a niche is an unrewarding place.

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[NikonNikkor]

Not even close, HM and NMM in TOR is abysmal at best.

 

Hardcore players do NOT want to see the same boss with more health and hits harder... there's nothing new to that.

 

Perfect example in how it's done wrong and right... in the SAME RAID... Firelands... the first 6 bosses were trash on HM, but Ragnaros was a VERY different fight when you hit HM, that was done right... the first 6 were done VERY wrong.

 

The Hardcore player wants a very difficult challenge that takes skill and coordination to achieve success that the normal monkey at a keyboard just won't understand. Sorry, but most MMO players are just terrible at being great at the game, hardcore players want a game that rewards greatness and punishes anything less with impunity.

 

It depends on if you mean "hardcore" as in...

1. Want a challenging experience, so they do all hard and nightmare mode content.
   
2. Want to do everything in game. Absolutely everything.
   
3. Have nearly unlimited time and no life so they devote all of their time to the game.
   

If you're #1 and/or #2, then parts of TOR are targeted at you and it's on-par, if not better than many other MMOs for this.

 

If you're #3 then you're sadly out of luck, as you would be with just about every single MMO out there. The only exceptions might be sand-box MMOs, or seemingly neverending PvP like in EVE Online. TOR is an amusement park style MMO, just like WoW, in which those who spend their whole lives here are NEVER going to be satisfied as the developer will never be able to make enough content for you in a timely fashion.

[Jjix]

 

I’m going to side-step the whole thing by making up a new word = E-Mon-Bus, short for likes “E”asy mode, has enough “Mon”ey that $15 a month is nothing (I blew $150 for racks of lamb this Easter weekend for my wife’s entirely too big family…), and “Bus”y i.e. they play 1-2 hours a week… max.

 

....

 

As above, TOR falters… a lot, because it’s an SPOG marketed as an MMO. We’d have a happy (or at least happier) community, granted much much smaller, if game marketers could just bite the bullet and say…

 

OUR game is an SPOG for E-Mon-Bus people (TOR)

 

instead of just "We're an MMO".

 

...

 

Finally, speaking personally, I do get angry and upset when I see people post things like “easy kills gaming” and the like. I’m willing to give up the term MMO to mean whatever you want it to mean… as long as companies can market SPOGs to people like myself…

 

…meaning E-Mon-Bus people.

 

 

Hey. Great post, lot's of insights. Particularly this idea implicit in the "E-Mon-Bus" concept that casual gamers are in some sense defined by their willingness and ability to pay a monthly fee.

 

Interesting, then, that the MMO world seems to be at the cusp of a Free2Play revolution. This reinforces my conviction that we are nearing the golden age of MMOs. Companies are dropping the monthly fee model, and soon the entire community will as well. And in effect by doing so we are giving up on the political potency of the casual vs hardcore gamer concepts.

 

The casual/hardcore largely grew up around the monthly fee. The monthly fee implied something about all of us, that we were good citizens willing to pay what essentially amounted to a utility bill in order to feed our habit. On the one hand we were good citizens who could actually afford to pay our bills, on the other addicted gamers who couldn't possibly afford a bill unless it was being payed for by our parents.

 

This distinction, revolving around the monthly fee, is perhaps in large part what lead to the "casual" becoming the political ideal in the MMO world -- someone who could actually afford to pay for their own gaming habits -- while the hardcore became associated with a 30 year old living in his mother's basement.

 

Free2Play began as a desperation model by MMOs that were going under. To an extent that is still the case. It became associated with bad MMOs, whereas good MMOs were ones that people were still willing to pay for. But I predict this entire thing is going to flip very soon, all the writing is on the wall. I'm not going to go into the details of why I believe that is the obvious case, the important thing here is that F2P will have a tremendous shift in terms of the politics of the online gaming world. The war between "casuals" and "hardcores" -- even if it were only ever more of a conceptual war with far reaching consequences -- will evaporate overnight. The next generation won't even remember this distinction because it won't have any potency.

 

Now, you mention CoH as a game that caters to EMB (emonbus) types. I completely agree. The thing is that CoH is one of the most group-friendly games ever made. My guess is your experience goes something like this: you log in, join a pick up group within 5 minutes, kick *** for an hour, then log off feeling like you had a rewarding experience. But that experience is the MMO experience I would argue. Sure, we spend a lot of time soloing and crafting and doing what not, but in the end we come back for the online experience of playing with other people, either in Co-op mode or PvP. The brilliance behind CoH was in allowing you to have that experience with such ease that you can log in, have it, and log off. Now days, of course, online coop games are much more popular; casual friendly coop games that still provide a persistent world and character, however, are still rare. Although many games are now adopting the CoH model of instances to allow for quick grouping and pvp. Rift comes to mind.

 

So CoH really isn't a SPOG. It is casual friendly, for sure, but a SPOG is a Single Player Online Game and the "single player" part means you aren't grouping, you aren't necessarily even interacting with other players at all (except maybe for some chat). A SPOG is a game where you get a persistent world and a persistent character and an unusually annoying general chat channel, but otherwise the experience is more or less the same as if you were playing Skyrim -- only not as good (that would be amazing if they could make an online game as gorgeous and rich as skyrim).

 

I don't think SPOGs do well, and since you raise City of Heroes as a game you love that is EMB I point you to its SPOG counterpoint, Champions Online. Developed by the same people it had everything CoH had, great character customization, awesome powers, excellent combat, quick and casual friendly . . . and yet it flopped. Why? The obvious answer lies in the the only meaningful distinction between the two games: City of Heroes was extremely group friendly, whereas CO seemingly went out of its way to discourage teaming and replaced it with a more extensive questing (missions) system for more solo content. In other words, Champions Online was a SPOG and City of Heroes was a MMOG and that was the only significant difference between the two games, a difference that caused one to fail where the other had succeeded.

[BigOso]

I think HC folks give themself to much credits.... what is hardcore folks now-a-days... who knows... only thing i can think of is that they play the game 40 hours a week instead of my 25 hours a week...

 

What makes them HC realy, i think its just a title that presumed HC players give themself to justify all their time playing a game that shouldnt be played that quickly to start with....

 

What is HardCore ???? a title used to show how fantastic a player base they are, how wonderfully skilled they apparently are........

 

What is HC really...... its a title given to players by themslef labelling them HC... based on what??? who knows

 

To me a HC is just someone that got to end-game way to qickly and now comes to forums to complain about lack of content hehe

 

So what is a HC player now-a-days???? its just a tittle rly, nothin more......

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

TOR is not my game. I hope LucasArts is working on some "Open World" Star Wars MMO,

a kind of Massive Multiplayer "Red Dead Redemption". In fact they should give a license to Rockstar Games or the Planetside 2 Devs.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Herbertt]

Did this game really take 300mill to make? wow, seriously wow, I guess that went all in to the voice acting.

 

On topic, I play more than most but i don't consider myself a hardcore gamer. i try to enjoy the game if i like it.

Hardcore to me is more the min/maxing part of games, looking for info on forums/sites.

 

What the Op is saying is pretty much my thoughts also, i don't understand why people try to change the core of a game instead of just moving on.

[Dayln]

I have never played a SPOG, I play Swtor and group all the time, that is a matter of choice.

[Lorgrin]

I always get a laugh when someone says they are a "hardcore gamer". What is a hardcore gamer anyway? Someone who likes to play standing on their head while getting punched in the face? Its just a stupid term.

 

You want hardcore games, ok. Go pick these up...

 

Ghost and Goblins arcade game

Battletoads

Festers Quest

Ninja Gaiden Black

 

Go play and beat all of these games, then you can come back with how hardcore you are.

[quadnut]

I think that is the most honest and even handed criticism I've read yet. I quit playing MMO's years ago, I guess because they felt catered to the hardcore MMO player. Everquest, Asheron's Call, Galaxies *Which I so wanted to love but couldn't*, and the best PVP game ever done for the MMO world. Dark Age of Camelot. (If I dev reads this one... go back and look at how that game handled open world PvP and you will find some answers to your problems.)

 

Funnily enough, I have always felt that I myself was a hardcore gamer. I guess in the last few years I've been proven wrong.

 

When I played those, it felt like it took forever to reach endgame content. This game it was quite quick. WHich made me happy. Now, I don't have anything to do on my main except to raid once or twice a week. Which does leave me bored sometimes. But, for the most part. I find it to be exactly what I wanted it to be. I guess the race will be for those who aren't quite hardcore gamers, but still want to be engaged, is how quickly will we run out of content to play that is new and fresh to us, before they stop giving us new content. So far, for my play level, Bioware is still in the lead in that reguard. But, the longer they take to give each new content patch; the more likely a 2/3's hardcore MMOer like me can catch up.

 

Hardcore is a complete joke all i hear is ppl cracking under pressure boring if u can clear it its to easy if you cant its to hard waste of space

[dprijadi]

im glad bioware do not cater for hardcore raiders ..

 

their current focus on story and casual players indicate that bioware do their homework and market research and correctly summarized that its casual players who play slowly and therefore subscribe longer than the endgame crowd who left for new game anyway..

 

so i hope bioware add more story and expand the class quest and companion stories.. and do not listen to the loudmouth forum poster because every MMO that listen to their hardcore forum poster will be ruined, just like Warhammer Online, Age of Conan and countless MMO ruined by hardcore gamers..

[DarthPeterNorth]

What is a hardcore player? A person who barely lives outside a pc, have no friends, no girlfriends, no self-steem, who eats too much and doesn't do any exercise?

 

A person who rushes through any game content to check the "end" of it and then cry about being bored after 2 weeks?

 

A person who gets infinite amounts of money and power items through their guild slaves and then cry about how easy is the game and that everyone should suffer horrible amounts of pain, that their gameplay should be much slower than yours that got your things done while being carried by friends or guildmates?

 

 

MMORPGs don't need to focus on hardcore gamers. Yea they can exist, but they are a minority of any game population. Some articles says that 95% of a MMORPG population never achieve those things you praise so much, ye, these players keep playing for years and keep these game servers running with profit to their development team.

 

MMORPGs were not made for elitists. Even games like EVE Online that praises to be hardcore (and yet you say you are hardcore playing themed park MMORPG, LOL at you) also address huge parts of their game to casuals.

 

Because without casuals their bills are not paid. But a game can live without hardcore players. That's why facebook games exist.

[dprijadi]

The problem in WoW is that they centralized raiding as the primary objective of the game,. Casuals only felt the need to raid because Blizzard centralized that as their game.

 

This is true...

 

i hope SWTOR wont focus on raiding / operation stuff.. but focus on what makes SWTOR great !! Storyline, more story, more class quest , more companion story, more mini games, more space combat , more fluff.. anything at endgame that casual can enjoy (definitely not raiding all the time)

[wifeaggro]

This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game what it simply isn't.

 

As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions."

 

When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth.

 

 

What i hadn't (but should have) anticipated was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting.

 

After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game.

 

 

Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style.

 

I would not be so sure. BW is learning a valuable lesson right now. MMO 's are house hold names and casual does not equate to new player. TOR is aimed at the brand new MMO'r and single player guy. but a large portion of the audience has several MMO's under their belt and years of MMO gaming expierence even if they are casual.

 

Concepts dont always translate well to audiences and i am not putting any money on TOR for long term success. TOR is a rerollers game and for the guy who likes lobby esque activities. of all the MMO's ive played this one really failed in the second M of MMO horribly.

Already back to Rift for me though its truly aiming it self at the casual and the diffculty is shallow as well there is MMO activies going on in the open world. And there is a layer of complexity that TOr does not offer.

[Wahala]

The world we live and play in. (or Stating the obvious)

 

1. Why do companies make MMO's?

 

To make money.

 

2. How do they maximize their profits then?

 

By attracting as many customers as possible.

 

3. How do they attract the most customers?

 

By making a game that will appeal to the majority of players.

 

4. So then who would make a game that only appeals to a small segment of the available customer base (like "hard core" ... whatever that really is)?

 

Nobody!

 

I hate games where I am constantly butting up against the "impossible" or constantly having to start over because I flubbed and hit the wrong key. I Like games that capture my interest and that allow me (I am certainly not the best vid game player in the world ... and don't really want or expect to be) to get a sense of accomplishment. Swtor sometimes seems too hard and sometimes seems to easy, but so far has been interesting, and has allowed me to progress.

 

Thank you Bioware for the FUN.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Wahala

[wifeaggro]

im glad bioware do not cater for hardcore raiders ..

 

their current focus on story and casual players indicate that bioware do their homework and market research and correctly summarized that its casual players who play slowly and therefore subscribe longer than the endgame crowd who left for new game anyway..

 

so i hope bioware add more story and expand the class quest and companion stories.. and do not listen to the loudmouth forum poster because every MMO that listen to their hardcore forum poster will be ruined, just like Warhammer Online, Age of Conan and countless MMO ruined by hardcore gamers..

 

I would agree with you if the game was aimed at the casual. but its not its aimed at a large singleplayer audience . I am a casual i have 1 50 chr and thats it i dont like rerolling nor would i consider it before the legacy unlocks. ive been full columni for months and have no desire to try to fill my raiding ranks in my guild to do the same content with more HP and race enrage timers for rakata gear that is exactly the same as columni despite the rating.

Glad you like the game though. It was not my cup of tea as i like MMO's . Casual in my mind frame does not equate to solo play but to each his own.

[Rzacron]

Its not about hardcore and casual... I know some people who play 4 hours a week and own the battlefield, and people who play 10 hours a day who forget to equip their weapon in a WZ.

 

But to answer the OP. SWTOR was made for "SPRPG'ers", and "Complete the game, move on" crowd. I have literally 0% immersion or ownership of my Character, this is not an MMO.

[Wahala]

Did this game really take 300mill to make? wow, seriously wow, I guess that went all in to the voice acting.

 

On topic, I play more than most but i don't consider myself a hardcore gamer. i try to enjoy the game if i like it.

Hardcore to me is more the min/maxing part of games, looking for info on forums/sites.

 

What the Op is saying is pretty much my thoughts also, i don't understand why people try to change the core of a game instead of just moving on.

 

According to this:

 

http://www.statisticbrain.com/star-wars-the-old-republic-statistics/

 

No. It only cost about half of that.

[Rabrac]

OP should not be disheartened. This game has a nice levelling pace if you are a casual player and cannot play all the time. The pace is great if you want to level multiple classes. If you only want to level 1 character it is way too fast. I actually found the game to be a bit easier than i liked. It is still very fun if you play casually when you can (2-3 afternoons a week).

[Elwacko]

I want to bane a town, kill it's guild and steal their loot.

 

I miss you Shadowbane.....

[DarthDetonate]

According to this:

 

http://www.statisticbrain.com/star-wars-the-old-republic-statistics/

 

No. It only cost about half of that.

 

As per the site I don't believe they are including what it cost to launch TOR rather just to make it. Marketing, especially how much was done in its various forms, is fairly expensive. The Panel interview is up on Darthhater.com.

 

Also

 

EA actually spent more than $747 million on marketing last year.

Edited April 11, 2012 by DarthDetonate

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[Nightrode]

I think people are over-analyzing the playstyle terms here. The difference between casual and hardcore is the approach the player takes to the game, and what they find fun.

 

I would say the hardcore players enjoy the number-crunching part of the game. The hardcore players are the ones min/maxing, and spending time to ensure that there character is running not only statistically flawless as possible, but that they are controlling their character with the keyboard and mouse in the most efficient way to accomplish their particular role as best as possible. Hardcore players like this part of the game, and since they have fun doing this they tend to be some of the best players in the game.

 

Casual players don't care about min/maxing their character or trying to be one of the players with the best gear on the server. They may say they do (which everyone wants to be the best), however they don't put in the time and/or effort required to be a hardcore player. It's not saying they couldn't, but it's saying that they don't find that part fun and don't care to. Casual players usually don't participate in the extremely time-consuming and difficult parts of the game.

 

Time, in my opinion, is an irrelevant statistic for both groups -- and by time I mean time spent playing the game. In fact, I would say hardcore players tend to take their time seriously so they try to be efficient as possible with it, so they can spend less time doing the trivial/less fun things and more time spent doing what is fun -- the actual encounter. On average the more "hardcore" players probably spend more time playing the game, however it's certainly not required since I knew people who were some of the best players in the nation but only logged on when required of them to raid or pvp.

 

Anyway, casual and hardcore have nothing to do with what they do, but how they do it. Playstyles ask "How?" not "What?". Both casual and hardcore players raid. Both casual and hardcore players do warzones. Both casual and hardcore players do dailies, and quest, and gather things, etc. etc. etc. They do the same things for the most part, but they do it in a different way.