Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

[lindhsky]

I haven't read what others have said but I really hope you do what Dark Age Of Camelot did.

 

Warhammer tried and despite being the same guys behind the DAOC-success they did some things wrong that ruined the experience in my opinion. They gave points for taking undefended objectives. So we got two huge armies running around in different zones taking keeps that were undefended instead of trying to take objectives that were defended. You got points that way and that is wrong. And it was easy points and since every game is a grind nowadays people rather take the easy points than the challenging fun way of doing it.

 

So what I would like SWTOR to do is to look back and see what DAOC did so good. They gave points for killing opposite players. This made players go to where the enemies were because they wanted points and they wanted action. Increase the amount of points you get for a kill if people are taking or defending an objective. I mean in DAOC you could have three hour long fights at a wall. Not because the wall was something you got points for. No people fought there because the action was there and where the action was the points were.

 

Next step is to give something for the points. I loved DAOC system were you got realmpoints and as you increased in rank you could buy realmabilities that helped you in PVP. They helped in PvE as well, but that might be harder to balance in a game like SWTOR. You should only be able to get those points from open world PVP not warzones. Because when you do you just make it another grind where people end up farming warzones for points 24/7.

 

So next question. Why take objectives? DAOC had Darkness Falls that people wanted so bad. The more keeps you had the bigger chance of opening the ports to this big dungeon that gave you stuff and money. And PvP because people left in the dungeon stayed there until they were killed. It was so fun running around among huge dangerous monsters knowing that enemies could be just around the corner.

 

I am not sure if this is something that is still fun in a game but im sure there are a millions of ways to make objectives good to take. Because in DAOC one of the things I loved was that taking a keep in an enemy zone and knowing that their army will come sooner and later. You knew you would get a lot of points in those kind of situations because it was a lot of action and kills. So you need to have some kind of system that makes people of one faction wanting to take back their own keeps/objectives bad if the enemy faction have taken it in their zone.

 

Other things I loved about DAOC was stealthers hanging out at different strategic spots on the map making life bad for smaller parties that were trying to reach the big army. Camping bridges and roads and working as intel for the rest of the army.

 

I also love when you don't balance the numbers in zones like this. Give the underdog more points per kill instead or like you have as an option above, PvE-help. Don't put a cap on a zone because that just makes it another boring warzone.

 

In every forum I read about players favourite PvP-game a lot of people are mentioning DAOC as one of their best experiences when it comes to PvP. Don't invent the wheel again. Look at what they did so amazingly well.

Edited March 29, 2012 by lindhsky

[Khellus]

Some of the most epic battles i got to take part in where in t3 of warhammer and t4 had moments where it was awesome as well . but the player abused system in t4 usually left it dull and lifeless as far as opvp.

Aions pvpve was decent as well but to many S**** Va**** made it unbearable.

If you can find a way to keep a balance of faction on servers than i'm all for it.

We have all had a pretty good taste of what unbalanced opvp can feel like in swtor.

Hopefully have areas that are confined as well as open , open world pvp doesn't have to be in the literal sense.

 

Is the hero engine horrible with collision detection ? why isnt there any in a game that suppose to be about immersion. how real is it that i can run right through other players.

[Warjacked]

Raw PvP is the reason I left Rising Force Online as it's PvPvP along with your typical PvE mix. Keeping it so PvP servers are open for Cross Faction and PvE and RP servers are you have the option of PvP mode is better balanced I think otherwise you'll lose the solo players like myself and hundreds others.

 

Just my thoughts though. If so I'll go back to Global Agenda and RF.

[tgreening]

I like the idea of several posts about having a Wintergrasp type concept. A timed event with various objects and goals and good rewards should be very popular with alot of people and even draw players that dont pvp that much. In the future, having vehicles that could fire weapons would be nice. I would like to pilot a walker around and blast people .

 

Have daily quests there that are active between events to keep up population for the zone. I enjoy the epicness of large groups such as 100 vs 100 but i dont know if thats possible with this game because it may cause severe lag issues.

 

If this seems to much like a warzone for some, maybe include another area for the more straight-forward open world pvp.

[Cinten]

I am not sure if it's just the server I am on but I have yet to see a single rebel in the open world. I made it to level 50 taking my time to do most quests and I know I was in rebel areas and I have gone lookin with no luck.

[Revanmug]

I am not sure if it's just the server I am on but I have yet to see a single rebel in the open world. I made it to level 50 taking my time to do most quests and I know I was in rebel areas and I have gone lookin with no luck.

 

You are playing the wrong game if you are looking for "rebels".

[TUXs]

PvPvE

 

But...James, this needs to be done correctly. NPCs and turrets can't overpower the PvP aspect. They need to allow SOME form of balance, but not be an overwhelming force. There need to be enough allow at least a reasonable retreat to, but not allow for immunity from attack. There need to be multiple locations to "capture" that are neutral until captured. You need to design for 8, 16 and 32+ person groups.

 

I REALLY appreciate you asking...but...now?! Ugh...James, this really needs to be priority number 1. Ilum was supposed to "blow us away"...instead, you've begun to chase all of us from it with the warzone only focus and you've taken away EVERY incentive to go there without ANY replacement. PvP was supposed to be a strength of this game...PLEASE tell me this is going to happen ASAP...in chunks, not one massive patch, but as pieces are developed.

 

PvP is a VERY important aspect of online gaming and by far the easiest for you guys to develop. Players ARE the content...you need to simply give us some incentive to fight for it, like faction XP buffs for controlling X number of points or enhanced healing for controlling the "capital" or something.

[Khazghule]

DAoC had some terrible problems, but it had the best open world pvp. The classes were far more simple at the beginning, and the layout of emain was really good. It had horrendous balance problems and CC issues were over the top, but it had a decent macroscopic design.

[Suzina]

I want:

 

1. Rewards so that I do Open world PVP

 

2. I want an area to do it in that's easy to get to. And a quick-travel there! Short load times if possible. I don't care if it's not the size of Corellia. Just bigger than a warzone.

 

3. I want NPC guards there to fall back to. In GW2 or Lotro, you fall back to NPCs when you are outnumbered and fight along side them. This not only evens up the odds, but leads to behavior that resmbles actually defending the objectives if the NPCs are nearest to the objectives. It's super cool.

 

4. quicktravel to location to it. Please, I don't want to spend 15 minutes in spaceports and loading screens just to find out if any action is going on!

 

5. Solo quests there so I stay. Once I'm there and nobody else is at 3am, I want to say "Yes! Nobody is here, now I can harvest/quest/capture/whatever alone! I don't want to show up there and say, "Darn, nobody is here. I can't complete my quest/capture/whatever and I just wasted my time." Give me solo quests to do. Heck, make the quest-givers killable if you like. I wanna do PVE if there's no PVP going on. But don't put them on a crazy multi-hour respawn timer. That's lame.

[Erynz]

. A game with a 3rd faction to balance sides and then give players a reason to not only take a base, but to defend it.

 

Lightside, Darkside, Neutral..oh would you look at that..3 factions! I'm also willing to bet that Lightside and Darkside are far closer in terms of numbers than Empire and Republic.

[Costello]

Ultimately any system can be exploited to the point where the actions become a grind and the reason behind that activity is lost to the race for compendations or points or whatever.

 

This was seen in Warhammer where as mentioned above the PvP forces avoided each other in a base turning style grind to maximise the chance of gold bag drops. I quit playing some time ago but I believe they were looking into a way that if you sucessful defended a keep it also offered some sort of reward. Cause it was the case that you only got the loot from taking an objective so defending was seen as pointless in as far as what loot it offered.

 

Now this is down to a mentality of fight clubbing and a reasonable level of gamer menatility where we judge what is the quickest way to achieve our goal. And 10 hours of maning the base for nothing isn't seen as cost effevtive. But that said I remember my days in SWG's where as an Imp and being horribly out numbered we flagged ourselves PvP just to defend Bestin from Rebel assult. Where we piled into an uphill battle cause you didn't leave people on your faction to fight alone. Now its fair to say this wasn't always smart and it sure didn't offer some vast reward we did it cause of the mentality. Which of course some people didn't get and so we saw fight clubbing just for Jedi to stack PvP points.

 

Now currently Bioware have even encouraged fight clubbing with warzones like huttball and now turning void star same faction. Now this has the problem of eroding faction identity where you get lumped in a group and just try and hit the requisits for getting comms and Valor. This makes a sence of loyalty to ones own faction problematic and the idea of jumping in to help a fellow Sith in open world PvP is lessened if they have just been ganking you in a huttball match.

 

So for Open World PvP to work BW have to foster faction idenity and encourage the scene we saw in the signs of war trailer

 

http://www.swtor.com/media/trailers/signs-war

 

the end section on Ilum made me think how great the open world PvP was going to be. Far better than 8 vs 8 acid trap huttball matches. After so much time spent on story and lore I really can't see anything star wars like or likely of a Sith Lord playing Huttball. And I suspect if it wasn't for the valor and comms they wouldn't.

[RolyartNala]

Maybe age and pessimism are setting in, because although I love WPVP in principle, none of these reasonable options is particularly appealing.

 

'Raw' Open World - faction vs faction, with no faction population restriction mechanics AKA 'true' Open World PvP. Factions claim objectives.

This is great when it works, but it so often doesn't work owing to faction imbalances.

 

PvPvE balanced - bolstering the underdog faction through NPCs, turrets, etc. Factions claim objectives.

Having experienced this in several MMOs, it rarely feels authentic when you win because of NPC bolstering.

 

Faction population capped - strict balancing in place between faction populations in objective areas. Factions claim objectives.

Having experienced this in WoW, it simply feels like another instanced battleground---larger, but still "contained". And the zerg rules. Perhaps the least exciting of the options.

 

Guild based - everyone is your enemy except players in your guild. Guilds claim objectives.

This seems as though it leads to guild zerging, but what the hey. I don't know anything about it, having never experienced it. Can't be less appealing than the other options. This has my vote.

[celldoom]

Premade groups of 8 into a unique planet (reword Ilum?) to capture various points around the planet for resources such as mines, crystals and strategic locations. Only premades are allowed into the planet, teams will be competing for resources to get access to pvp gear, consumables and perks very similar to Global Agenda's AvA.

 

Each months for 3 weeks any premade can go in and compete for objectives, the last 4th week will feature the top 8 teams with the winner winning the monthly mini-season for unique cosmetic rewards such as speeders, colour crystals, custom gear and titles.

 

All vehicles are NPCs bought for World PvP resources to gain a temporary advantage and are all countered by other vehicles with rock/paper/scissor logic.

 

Also multiplayer space battles would be nice, or "deathstar runs".

Edited March 29, 2012 by celldoom

[Mirmirmi]

Guild-based objectives sounds very exciting.

 

Raw World PvP also does, although there are not many good targets or locations due to the center of each faction pretty much being centered on an inaccessible enemy fleet.

[theunwarshed]

 

This seems as though it leads to guild zerging, but what the hey. I don't know anything about it, having never experienced it. Can't be less appealing than the other options. This has my vote.

 

at least this option allows for temp "alliances" to form organically on the battlefield in order to take down a larger guild. my guild did a lot of this in AoC in the pvp high level resource zone. typically the big dog guild of the server would stake their claim in the most resource-intense area of the zone and other smaller guilds would "join up" (read attack the big dog in a semi-organized manner) to push them off the map. FF was a concern, but this type of pvp generally works and is very fun. it's better than any of the other options imo.

[Dzhokhar]

Since you're not making any effort to encourage faction balance, 'Raw' Open World PvP won't really work.

 

Faction Population Capped PvP isn't really "Open World PvP".

 

Guild Based PvP simply doesn't fit the Star Wars lore (especially for the Republic).

 

That pretty much leaves PvPvE, which I think could be pretty cool if done correctly. There need to be more NPC enemies than just a bunch of "heroes" to balance out the numbers. Both sides should have NPC allies that serve a purpose beyond simple balance (for example, the NPCs could provide context for player actions, by guarding or attacking objectives independently), the NPCs on the less populated side should simply be more numerous or more powerful than the ones on the other side.

[Whitelightr]

I would love to see a guild vs guild feature for pvp. If its not true 24/7 pvp but allow guilds to declare war on each other (same faction or opposing factions).

 

As for open world pvp, in addition to the above, I would like to see it more wide spread (multiple planets with more pvp focus, not just a single lv50 one) but at the same time encourage "hotspots" for pvp battles.

[jdi_knght]

PvPvE (a bolster system of some sort).

 

Raw - population imbalances turn things into a slaughterfest.

PopCap - If you have say... 100 imperials and 20 republic who try to get in, that means 80% of the imperials don't get to participate. In addition, the smaller-number-faction has more consistancy in terms of teammates so they tend to organize easily and have a higher chance at winning.

GuildBased - Could be interesting I suppose, though this pretty much leaves the solo-player (and tiny guilds) out.

 

 

Some form of bolster has the potential to even the playing field. I prefer the 2-stage kind - one that bolsters based on the faction imbalance, and another that progressively strengthens the "losing" side over time.

[GorZie]

I love pvp, however open world pvp in any form is missing, due to no rewarding.

 

I love the idea of a bounty board, many ppl had good ideas:

 

have a look at this thread:http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=363649&highlight=bounty+boards

 

or my own: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=375782

[RobNightfall]

You can start with this Mr. Ohlen - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=234156

 

This. And most importantly, fix the graphics rendering issues! You have too many players with good gaming rigs who get miserable FPS in large fights because of the game engine.

Edited March 29, 2012 by RobNightfall

[Ritterific]

I voted for faction population capped. While I don't think it would be the most fun, I do feel that it's the only way any kind of "open world" pvp would be feasible. The reason I put open world in quotation marks is because faction population capped really isn't open world pvp. That being said, truly open world pvp is ultimately pointless or (as we saw with Ilum) completely imbalanced.

 

The PvPvE option does seem to be the most interesting, but I just don't see it really being feasible. Sure you can spawn some extra turrets or npcs to help defend the base, but how is that going to help if the under-represented faction wants to go on the offensive? Are the npcs going to be tethered to people like companions? How are they going to respawn? How often will the game check for population imbalances to adjust things like turrets numbers? And that's just scratching the surface.

 

So, while I firmly believe that "open world pvp" in it's truest sense is pointless and adds nothing to game play, I do think the best way to implement it is the "really big warzone" approach.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ritterific

[Kalliadies]

I personally Like a mix of PvE/PvP/objective, especially because of population imbalance.

 

The Keeps in the Etten Moors (LOTRO) was a pretty good concept that I largely enjoyed. Even largely outnumbered forces could put up a great fight, due to the NPC guards and keep defences (oil). The larger force , instead of just completely steam rolling over the smaller group, would have to take into consideration how many NPC’s they could deal with

 

I have fond memories of 8 of us drawing in a group of 20-25 too far into the keep, causing them to be overwhelmed and allowing us to win.

 

My proposition would be to have Fortresses and Facilities spaced out on all the planets, Guarded by NPCS and base defences. Holding the fortresses would provide a Planetary buff.

 

• it would be possible to PvE for ownership (require killing the Garrison commander in the heart of the fortress) If a group could do so without drawing attention from players on the opposite faction.
  

• buffs/items would need to be desirable to promote attacking and defending
  

• Fortresses on the same planet would need to be appropriately distanced as to split forces across the map, or focus them in one area at the cost of presence elsewhere. (fights the zerg beats all method, allows flanking attacks)
  

• Features such as a Comm’s towers could broadcast a mayday when under attack, or be sabotaged to delay the Mayday call. shield generaters etc etc)
  

• Smaller defending groups would be bolstered by having NPC’s and turret defences.
  

• NPC patrols could be triggered by a faction on a fotress to create a feint attack. Mayday is broadcasted to opposite faction but the player force might amass else where
  

 

there is just so much you could do with it. In LOTRO players could spend points to play Ogres or Rangers. In Swtor Walkers and tanks could be a possibility.

 

I think you get the idea so I will leave it at that for now

 

Just my thoughts

Edited March 29, 2012 by Kalliadies

[Ayumifag]

That pretty much leaves PvPvE, which I think could be pretty cool if done correctly. There need to be more NPC enemies than just a bunch of "heroes" to balance out the numbers. Both sides should have NPC allies that serve a purpose beyond simple balance (for example, the NPCs could provide context for player actions, by guarding or attacking objectives independently), the NPCs on the less populated side should simply be more numerous or more powerful than the ones on the other side.

 

I really like this idea. I think what has been lacking the most for me in terms of PvP is the real sense that you are part of some large-scale galactic conflict. Illum has always felt sort of lifeless, with the walkers simply being static objects and warzones are too small to really feel like you're participating in a battlefield. Putting NPCs on both sides regardless of participants (and then tweaking strength/numbers as needed) will really go a long way towards making open world PvP more lively than current Illum ever was

 

Suitable rewards are necessary as well. Simply awarding valor and commendations doesn't really encourage participation, if you ask me. I hate to take a page from WoW, but unlocking a small operation after controlling the map might be a good way to provide gear rewards as well as encourage PvE players to participate in the conflict (though with the increasing differentiation of PvP and PvE gear, this might not work well)

[JustOneRandomGuy]

Faction population capped.

[wadetho]

PvPvE is really the only thing that will work for the "masses"...

 

only instead of throwing out more "companions" and turrets for the underdog faction, why not buffs, or discounts on repairs and stims.. increased xp gains, maybe pvp armor, commendation drops increased... something other than half-stupid AI bots and guns that shoot you half way across the zone..

 

there has to be something else in the form of a buff/incentive that will make the underdog stronger. you cant always throw more muscle at something to fix it.

 

and i see no reason why you cant give even a little reward for open world PVP that MAY occur.. the dev team seems to have gone through great lengths to keep the factions seperated.. any "raw" pvp that occurs is usually because its sought out in some shape or form.. not found by normal "questing". give the players that want to have raw open world pvp something for their efforts.. put it on diminishing returns to prevent farming. you never know what the community will do with it.

 

EDIT> and everyone that wants population capped pvp... you got that.. its called warzones, and you get a new one in 1.2... i dont even understand why thats an option.. dont replace PVP with warzones.. there is already hardly any difference between a PVP and a PVE server in this game to begin with...

Edited March 29, 2012 by wadetho