Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

[Vizho]

I am quite torn between the "Raw" and "PvPvE" options that are currently listed.

 

While I most definitely want to see PvP in it's purest form, it will be next to impossible to implement given the faction imbalances. I also do not want to see any kind of population caps put in place for players, as it greatly reduces play time for anyone waiting in any sort of queue.

 

Can some type of fortresses be implemented, without some type of inevitable exploit? Absolutely not. As long as BW stays diligent in correcting these problems though, I do not see it posing to much of a problem.

 

Can a bolster affect be given to players of the faction with lower population numbers? Something that would increase their stats to compensate for being outnumbered 2 to 1. Something like that may be easier to implement over NPC's

[Icysunx]

All these ideas in this forum are really great, except everyone who's not on the top 5 populated servers will never be able to experience any of it.

[LillyWhiteS]

Can we please have Keep warfare like warhammer online where there ar emultiple keeps all over the maps where we can fight to capture and then defend and maybe kill a pve boss like warhammer online, this would give end game pvp a MASSIVE meaning and would be soo much fun, 24/7 open world pvp fighting for control of the keeps and fighting off sieges from the walls and using artillary to take down the door !!!

 

Only just saw this thread, anyway I agree with this post completely, it's been in my sig for a while now

 

Even though they got some things wrong, I also miss Warhammer PvP, as did some friends who already left TOR, WZ type PvP isn't enough, only unsubbed last night myself due to the same reason, but this thread is the first sign that maybe something will be done to big scale PvP that may bring some hope back, aswell as lost subs I suspect.

 

I am sure BW could learn from mistakes made and improve upon what Warhammer did.

 

The best community in a game I played was Warhammer ( Ironclaw server ), multiple warbands working for hours to achieve the objectives, even though the city raid reward could have been done better.

 

By having a working big scale PvP, it meant Warzone type PvP settled into the right place, secondary PvP and for variety, because they were not overplayed, you thus never got as bored of them, unfortunately that isn't the case in TOR as it's the only real PvP.

 

Warzones can't take the mantle as the main and sole PvP, need big scale PvP that last for hours and has real objectives to take and defend and a reason to do so and spend hours doing them.

 

Something like Warhammer with forts, maybe getting to raid a city for reward like Warhammer did, who knows, would be enough for me.

 

Also a little offtopic, but still PvP, a Warzone like an Alterac Valley, big map, much higher participant number and different objective type, would be very welcomed and help pass the time till world PvP was fixed.

 

Good communication with updates and feedback would also help.

[BlueBeard]

PvPvE is definitely the choice for me. The thing I dislike the most about Ilum PvP is that it has no purpose other than a giant zerg vs zerg fight to get some Valor. In order for that planet to be enjoyable again, it really needs to have some sort of fortress system, or something to that effect.

 

Also, having a city, fortress, or outpost somewhere in the game (not necessarily on Ilum) that attracts a high population, and has a large PvP area outside of one of it's gates (with a safe spawn area nearby) would be nice. The best open world PvP I have experienced in other MMO's has always taken place in areas that are easily accessible and that make new players want to try out PvP. When visiting Ilum, I find myself running into the exact same people who I regularly run into in Warzones. The new players that do visit the PvP area on Ilum don't seem to stay long since there's so much open space, and riding around looking for the action tends to do little more than get you killed. I personally went to the PvP area on Ilum shortly after reaching level 50 and didn't come back for over a month because I didn't see the point. The same can be said for the Outlaw's Den. It's a cool idea, but it's so far out of the way, and there is very little chance of new players stumbling upon it and witnessing a big PvP battle (and if they do, they will be auto-flagged and just die instantly anyway).

 

If open world PvP takes place in an area that is more accessible to players, and clearly visible to people who aren't regular PvPers (without forcing them to engage in the fight), it will attract more attention and be a lot more fun in the end. Watching some higher level players PvP at a city gate and thinking, "Cool! If I keep leveling up, I can get in on a fight like that someday!" is one of the things that originally got me really interested in MMO's.

[Philosomanic]

Is there any particular reason that James can't post himself? It seems a bit odd....

 

If he's posting, he's not developing. The fact that someone else is asking for and gathering feedback for him is a good thing, because that means he has more time to actually work on world PvP. And Stephen has shown a good record of actually communicating our feedback with the devs (see the post on world events), so I'm happy.

[Shlamorel]

I choose "other."

 

For open world PVP, I want Republic and Empire questlines to require venturing into common territory so that we have more skirmishes while leveling up.

 

I want Empire and Republic to not actually have different maps of the same planets (many parts of each others' map you can't even travel to).

 

Allow us to attack each others' fleet ships. Allow us to raid Coruscant and whatever the Imperial capitol is called.

 

Some people may say "well, the majority faction will just make life miserable for the minority faction." Valid point, and here is my suggestion: The first priority that SWTOR needs to address before entertaining open-world PvP is faction imbalance.

 

One way to accomplish faction balance: Once cross server warzone queuing is allowed, do away with the idea of same-faction warzones; this will give incentives to play on the minority faction (shorter queue times, access to more warzones than huttball over and over) rather than further promoting playing the majority faction. By balancing factions, there would be less single-faction domination, and this would promote healthy open-world PvP.

 

If you want to allow a mixup for warzones, try lightside vs. darkside warzones. This will allow Republics and Imperials to end up on the same team and reduce queue times for some people. (Neutral characters could be a toss up). At the very least, it wouldn't limit people by faction and discourge them from playing the minority. It would also give the majority faction more warzones than "just Huttball."

 

Does putting number restrictions on the number of players allowed to PvP really even qualify as "open world PVP" at all?

 

As long as BW continues to appease the majority faction (i.e., allowing more same-faction warzones because people got tired of Huttball), the balance will become larger and larger, making it more impossible for SWTOR to ever see a healthy open-world PvP environment.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Shlamorel

[Shlamorel]

I'm sad to second this.

 

I enjoyed Wintergrasp too.

 

Wintergrasp, with the tenacity buff, was a version of the "PvPvE" choice.

[DarkDruidSS]

I'm glad this is going PvPvE so far too. I don't think people realize that they need to have some kind of balance for Open PvP to work and RAW, GvG and FvF (pop cap) isn't really the way to go.

 

RAW, then empire will always win on most servers due to numbers.

 

GvG, then only the mega guilds will win... due to numbers.

 

FvF (pop cap), we already have these. They are called Warzones. What happens if there isn't enough people to fill another instance... you have queues. Due to population imbalances it would be like waiting for Voidstar or Civil War all the time.

 

The only choice that can be adjusted to population needs is the PvPvE option. In an ideal world with fully populated servers with a close to 1:1 faction ratio then I would totally go with RAW Open World... that is not the case though.

[Korrigan]

Many people voted PvPvE, but that has been proved not to work that well in the past. The balancing "PvE" part is always either underpowered or overpowered compared to a player, therefore generating imbalances.

 

Best remains faction population capped.

[sonickat]

I would love to see something similar to Baradin Hold from Cataclysm introduced in the SWTOR universe. Specifically the general concept of a large format pvp encounter with pve objectives that only activates every two or three hours. Where the winner gains access to an operation level boss with itemization and also access to specific daily hub which commendations and it's own itemized vendors.

 

The only thing I always thought that blizzard missed the ball on was giving an incenvite to take part in the actual match itself. I thought it was be an interesting concept to provide a stacking buff while the actual pvp match was going on that persisted through death and lasted upto the duration between matches - this buff should provide a bonus to valor gained and commendations earned from doing the dailies.

[Chaos_Distortion]

I chose guild based world pvp. This poll is a clear indicator of how clueless some of the players in the game are in regards to world pvp, no offense intended. PvPve wouldn't work because NPCs can be exploited, interfere when you wouldn't want them to, and just not do anything at all. Seeing as how the majority of the votes went towards PvPve instead of a Guild determined balance which would in a sense make it FFA pvp, confuses me. Seeing the mentality that this new generation of MMO players has, made me a really sad MMO pvp vet. Edited March 29, 2012 by Chaos_Distortion

[anstalt]

Voted PvPvE

 

Although i prefer "raw", faction imbalances reduce the actual fun. I think it should be raw everywhere except dedicated pvp zones i.e. ilum and tat.

 

Like others have said, balancing the pve element can be tricky but it can be done. My opinion is that NPCs should balance up to 20-30% faction imbalance.

 

 

So, if rebels have 50 people, rebels hiding in a base with NPCs should be able to have a fair fight against 60-65 imperials (assuming average player skill etc etc etc).

 

 

Population caps are a no-no - lag > queues.

Guild v Guild is a no-no - removes meaningful ability to solo / small group roaming etc and benefits zerg guilds.

Raw is a no-no - with no balancing mechanic, the zerg rules and zerging is dull.

[DarkDruidSS]

I chose guild based world pvp. This poll is a clear indicator of how clueless some of the players in the game are in regards to world pvp, no offense intended. PvPve wouldn't work because NPCs can be exploited, interfere when you wouldn't want them to, and just not do anything at all. Seeing as how the majority of the votes went towards PvPve instead of a Guild determined balance which would in a sense make it FFA pvp, confuses me. Seeing the mentality that this new generation of MMO players has, made me a really sad MMO pvp vet.

 

The problem with GvG is you have guilds like Reddit, Goon Squad and RUIN that have thousands of players. Which ever guilds can get the most players on at 1 time will win. It's still not balanced and boils down to a numbers game. Mega guilds will rule open world. How is that different than having FvF where Empire owns it all?

 

In the end you are just dealing with smaller numbers, but an active member capped guild will rule all.

[Talixo]

PvPvE never works. I hate to see so many votes for it.

 

Faction capping is the only effective way to make it work, even if some people can't get in for every battle.

 

Tol Barad works. Old Wintergrasp did not, despite the "buffing" they tried to do to compensate.

[VanderII]

I've voted PvPvE balanced,it sounds very nice

Is it a pvp system like WvW of GW2?

Edited March 29, 2012 by VanderII

[Mailek]

I'm going to go with the PvPvE version just because the Republic are already outnumbered pretty much on all servers.

 

I know the devs from WAR redesigned their RvR system to have a handicap feature in place. Hopefullly something similiar to that.

 

Guilds should also be able to buy and place 1 factional base either in certain areas on planets or a "front line" instance where other guilds plant bases and battle for domination.

[Xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I've been wanting to make a post like this for a while, seems like a good time now.

 

PvP can't have "objectives" that are like PvE objectives, at all. If they are, PvE players will simply "complete the quest". That's what PvE players DO. They are good at COMPLETING QUESTS. You only need look at the original version of Ilum to see what happened. Each player says "how do i complete this quest in the lowest amount of time possible", and the answer is/was obvious.

 

Bolstering the underdog doesn't work. There will always be some type of min/maxing going on, or the mechanic itself will just not be balanced. You only need look at Tenacity, which caused problems like shadowpriests throwing 2 dots on each player to kill everyone they saw, and druid tanks with 400k hitpoints and 40% damage mitigation.

 

The thing about Open World PvP is that most players join in for the sake of the pvp. No rewards are required. Heck, everyone who joins a PvP server, probably does so because they like the excitement of being attacked anytime, anywhere. I mean, if you read the server select screen it does NOT say "PvP server - you will earn extra rewards here for participating in PvP", does it? Yet people still join. True, open-world pvp cannot have rewards, or you get people win-trading or kill-trading or valor-trading or whatever.

 

Now, if you are trying to get players to participate in an open-world PvP SIMULATION, and reward them for it, that is a different story. That can work. Some finer points:

 

--You have to make the sides 'even' , or one side will stop participating.

--The losers should experience some reward for participating in the simulation.

--The winner should receive more rewards than the losers.

--There should be a server-wide "advantage" for the winning side.

--Simulations cannot be running 24 hours continuously, it just boils down to faction population at that point

--Players should be allowed to play at the same time as their friends

 

additionally , for SWTOR, I would add:

 

--Objectives should be spread out significantly, to prevent 100 players from being in a 50mx50m area, and "lagging out"

--Background graphics like planetary blaster fire should be kept to a minimum

--the Zone should be completely dedicated to PvP, no mixing in PvE general chat, no extra server stress from PvE players present in the zone, etc

--respawn areas and taxi paths should be prohibited areas for the opposing faction.

 

Imagine Ilum, every 3 hours a game spawns, where up to 24 empire and up to 24 republic were pitted against each other. For 30 minutes, they fought over objectives, killed each other, emotes flying, etc etc. After the game finished, the winning side gains a benefit of 5% extra damage in Belsavis and Ilum (for doing dailies), and +5% valor in warzone matches.

[Groncho]

I'm going to go with the PvPvE version just because the Republic are already outnumbered pretty much on all servers.

 

I know the devs from WAR redesigned their RvR system to have a handicap feature in place. Hopefullly something similiar to that.

 

Guilds should also be able to buy and place 1 factional base either in certain areas on planets or a "front line" instance where other guilds plant bases and battle for domination.

 

that worked on a sandbox

i cant see how u can find a place to put a base in this type of game

[Monkeylint]

I voted for the balanced PvPvE option since there has always been a significant Imp>Pub population showing up on Ilum on our server (before the WZ credits for the Ilum dailies and the big 20+ on either side fights we had all dried up). You'd have to have some incentive for the outnumbered side to show up, so they know they'd still be able to accomplish something if there's only like 3 other friendlies in the zone. I'd love to see:

 

-Massive PvP objectives match that starts every X hours with balanced faction numbers on either side like WoW's Tol Barad

 

-Large open world PvP zone with NPC-guarded objectives that would require at least a full ops group to flip and solo-able side quests to keep people occupied when their faction has low pop. Control expires with time so that low pop faction isn't always facing all points in enemy hands. Since flipping requires a large group, low pop side can leverage defense with friendly NPC guards to have an effect on a larger number of attackers, playing the spoiler position and tipping the balance so attackers will need still larger numbers to pull off the cap. Player kill quests, objective defense/capture quests, objective NPC kill quests, gather quests... See LotRO Ettenmoors.

 

-And a little off topic, but how about a Payload-style WZ?? That would be fun.

[ozgup]

SWTOR maps are huge and i can't see any enemy on my map. I am lvl 32 Sith @Trayus Academy EU

[Chaos_Distortion]

PvPvE won't work, I assume the vast majority of the people voting for PvPvE never played AION. That is a shining example of how PvPvE doesn't work in MMOs. I liked AION but I recognized the PvPvE factor put in to supposedly balance the factions, didn't work at all.. Edited March 29, 2012 by Chaos_Distortion

[Shlamorel]

that worked on a sandbox

i cant see how u can find a place to put a base in this type of game

 

Well, the Dev who started the thread was asking for feedback. Future/existing content could always be created/modified to have sandbox elements

[DarkDruidSS]

PvPvE won't work, I assume the vast majority of the people voting for PvPvE never played AION. That is a shining of how PvPvE doesn't work in MMOs. I liked AION but I recognized the PvPvE factor put in to supposedly balance the factions, didn't work at all..

 

You know why it didn't work in Aion. Besides the fact that it DID work overseas in Korea,China and Japan that were all playing the game a year to 6 months prior to NA/EU release. It didn't work because in NA/EU servers were crap and you had a slide show any time there was a keep seige. Tied to that the fact that people wanted the Baluar to own objectives because they gave considerable rewards for killing them and you have a failure waiting to happen. The rewards for killing Balaur was a change made prior to NA/EU release so that people could complete the PvE set and so people could get pvp gear.

 

Any time you tie rewards for killing NPCs in PvPvE you have a problem. NPCs should be there strictly for balance purposes and not for a method of farming reknown so you can buy gear, get drops (bloods in Aion), grind exp or grind cash.

 

It also DID work in Warhammer until they changed the castles to drop loot boxes with PvP gear in them. Then people started trading castles for the boxes so people could gear up. Once again, tying rewards to killing PvPvE NPCS is the problem.

Edited March 29, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[Luno]

Whatever design approach is taken, there are some elements which I'd like to see:

 

- Strategic Elements: There should be some amount of overall strategy that can be employed so that a smaller coordinated force can do well against a larger uncoordinated force.

 

- Tactical Elements: Objectives should be planned with multiple attack/defense points so that stacking everyone in one place is not always the best way to take/defend an objective.

 

- Dynamic Elements: The battle field should change over time such that the players will need to respond to the changes with Strategic and Tactical elements.

[wavyhill]

I really want to believe that SWTOR can have fun, meaningful, well populated Open World PvP, but I my experience in Warhammer has taught me that without a 3rd faction that plan is doomed to failure.

 

Now, obviously, Bioware can't really make a 3rd fully fleshed out faction. But they can create a pseudo 3rd faction fairly easily. A faction that accepts both Republic and Imperial players and only exists for the purposes of Open World PvP.

 

Probably the best way to implement this is to just have an NPC on the fleet that reports on approximately how many people for each side are actively participating in Open Wolrd PvP at that point in time and allows players to toggle between their normal faction alliance and this 3rd faction, again, only for the purposes of Open World PvP.

 

This would allow people on servers that are totally dominated by either Empire or Republic players the chance to get some action beyond spawn camping and zerging their horribly undermanned opposites. The sort of stuff that was the eventual downfall and ruination of Warhammer Online.

 

The thing about Open World PvP is that most players join in for the sake of the pvp. No rewards are required.

 

Really? You think people will do things just for the sake of fun? In an MMO? Your faith in your fellow man is touching, if unrealistic. Misanthropy wins the day when it comes to MMO design.