Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

[mordredz]

He's too busy leveling his marauder.

 

Keep it on discussion, and childish comments left out, thanks...

[Pokerface]

You have to STRIKTLY SEPARATE PvP from PvE. What I mean is:

 

-several class changes because of PvP MUST NOT HAVE AN IMPACT on PvE!!!

-several class changes because of PvE MUST NOT HAVE AN IMPACT on PvP!!!

 

I am a PvE Player who has nothing to to with PvP, but I always suffer under the PvP Class changes, which is NOT COOL! These 2 Elements cannot coexist in an MMORPG. That's why you MUST striktly separate those 2 from each other.

[Nitewolfe]

Please Mr. Ohlen when considering these changes keep them off of pve servers.

The majority of players that are on pve servers are there because pvp doesnt effect us.

These rounds of pvp questions has me worried that pvp may start to have effects on OUR pve world!

[Tenceriker]

The best option would be Guild based PvP with strict Alliances.

[Defdaddy]

SUGGESTION: For lvl 50's on the Fleet, show the population on ILUM.

 

You could have a ticker scroll underneath the Planet Population bar that keeps a real time count of population in each Open PvP area...

 

 

I think this would facilitate populating these area's if one is there another will show and if 2 are there, someone else will show, on and on. Multiplying population size very quickly the larger the population goes.

 

If you all of the sudden get done with a Warzone and you see OMG there 8/9 people on Ilum you would be inclined to travel to Ilum and check it out. Others would be to. Then the next Warzone group is done and see's OMG there are 15/15 people on Ilum very quickly you have 20 people. Just imagine if every lvl 50 on the Fleet saw 20+ people on Ilum.

 

I really think this is KEY to World PvP

[DrMouth]

i´d like to add one thing too.

ive played DAOC from 2001 on too, but left after TOA.

I somehow dont like the idea of leveling your items or getting new item sets over and over and if you dont have them you cant compete.

In the Beginning Daoc had something like an item cap at max level you got the best equipement through crafting and everyone could have it. (but you needed money which means playtime)

So only your skill and your groups skills were important in pvp, tactical cooperation (yes with teamspeak) and knowing your char and your enemys was the recipe for groups of 8 to win against larger numbers.

and as others already said you got the feeling that what you did in pvp ment something for your guild and your faction.

I miss that in all other games since then.

 

Warhammer did not reach that level again for one reason.

Daoc managed faction balance by useing a 3 group system. like the old stone scissor paper,

so if one faction was overpopulated, fighting against two different enemys balanced it. (most of the time)

all other games (except for EVE and Guild Wars) only feature two sides like WoW which is more prone to population balancing problems.

i think this is a major issue for developing a balanced pvp sytem.

[Shaky_]

Some thoughts.

 

-Quality daily quests in open areas appetizing people’s desire to go there

 

-Instead of capture the flag, capture the chest. If the chest can be returned to faction/guilds home area, then (potentially) quality loot for all. This may require returning the chest on a path that would take the capturing team though check point areas, which would encourage battle areas.

 

-Bounty/level type system. The combined total levels of the opposing groups get compared and the rewards are adjusted. For example, a group of 4 level 50’s (200 total) beating up a group of 6 level 25’s (150 total) would get diminished rewards. By contrast 3 well equipped level 20’s beating 2 level 35’s would get bonus awards. This would enhance the market and hence the economy for quality lower level gear, and would encourage players to max equip their lower level toons. A variation of this could use the combined pvp ranking of each group for comparison, especially if both groups were level 50s. Any player who provides a de/buff, damage, or heal during the fight would be considered as part of the fighting group.

 

-Have world areas that are fought for and controlled by one faction or the other. These areas, when either individually controlled or some ratio controlled, could provide a small buff to the controlling faction, or some sort of bonus that would incline members of each faction to fight for control. These areas could be spread across the galaxy, on different worlds. A separate pvp queue (galactic pvp queue instead of warzone pvp for instance?) could be set up for people willing to travel to other worlds to fight. When an opposing faction begins to take over an area then a warning or invite could go out to all of the queued defending (as well as the attacking) faction about the risk of losing an area or the opportunity to take one. If the minimum required time to take over an area for control was extended to 10-20 minutes or so, this would give the defending faction time to respond. After control of an area has been established then a cool-down could start such that it cannot change hands again for a period of time, maybe an hour or so. This would eliminate pointless skirmishes that end in stale mates without a conclusion. These areas could be PvE balanced. Rewards for participation could include titles or badges for skirmishes. (galactic defender, Republic rapid response, defender of Hoth, world conquer, etc.).

[Chaos_Distortion]

No, it didn't work because it was GvG it worked in DAoC because you had 3 factions. It still wasn't trully GvG because you still had a faction behind you. In true GvG it's a free for all and everyone outside your guild is an enemy. Thus leading to mega guilds owning everything.

 

I also find it funny that you state your play time. I have been playing since 99 in Everquest and you are still wrong about PvPvE.

WTH are you on about, I clearly said three factions and not GVG, so why are you saying GVG in DAOC? I say GVGs in this game because it doesn't have three factions, I don't know where exactly in my statement you got GVGs from DAOC............. I can't even take you seriously because you failed to read my simple post, good job.. I clearly said DAOC had it right because they had three factions, then I went on to say that Guilds vs Guilds in this game would be the most ideal way, since this game does not have "three factions" like in DAOC. Kids like you really need to learn how to read.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Chaos_Distortion

[StephenReid]

Thank you to everyone who voted and commented in this thread. We're happy to hear more feedback, but the poll has now closed.

 

If you'd like to vote and comment on James' feedback question for this week, please visit this thread.

[TalonShar]

Something I would love to see more of in the game, mass city attacks from the opposing faction. For instance having a set of bosses for a major settlement, and making it a goal to eliminate those bosses in the opposing factions city. This would cause more PVP action in the PVE environment, only on PVP servers of course. Some of the rewards could include titles, unique gear, bonus legacy points, or whatever Bioware can dream up.

[JeramieCrowe]

Something I would love to see more of in the game, mass city attacks from the opposing faction. For instance having a set of bosses for a major settlement, and making it a goal to eliminate those bosses in the opposing factions city. This would cause more PVP action in the PVE environment, only on PVP servers of course. Some of the rewards could include titles, unique gear, bonus legacy points, or whatever Bioware can dream up.

 

I bet this becomes a reality once the TOR timeline progresses to full-blown war, like the devs stated is the eventuality of the world arc.

[sulsakan]

True “open world” pvp is probably not possible in SWTOR

 

Unfortunately, I think the problem with "open world" pvp in this game is going to be much more difficult to fix then many people think...because it's not an open world game structure to begin with. Look at the way that players are "railed" through the gauntlet of planets...where every planet is strictly designed for certain levels only. After you’re finished your missions on one planet, there's really very little reason to go back once you leave it. Once you hit 50 there's only Ilum and instanced playing (WZs, ops, etc.).

This is basically a single person game plopped into an MMO environment. The problem with the mindset that went into making this game is that, just like traditional single person games, the environment has to strictly control the players’ movements as he/she progresses through the quest lines. But this is where the big clash begins…because open world MMOs should not by any means try to control the players’ movements.

 

For example, as I was leveling up as a sage, I was getting pretty annoyed by how the geography and transportation mechanics (where you can only get to other places on taxi, and only after you unlocked them) were designed to limit a player’s movements. The fact that you couldn’t just get to a planet and get on your vehicle and move around to any part of the planet map at will was a big let down from the beginning. At first I figured, well maybe this is just a helping mechanism for peeps just getting started. Then I got to Anchorhead and as I started exploring around, I started to get this elated feeling that just maybe the game did open up, so I got on my bike and exited the city to explore the wide blue yonder…getting happy flashbacks of the good old days of SWG…until I hit the “barrier”! When I realized that this deadly “exhaust” barrier (or whatever it’s called) surrounded the city, I just got sick to my stomach. Then it infuriated me…this obsession to control everyone’s movements had gone too far. This is when I realized that the advertisement that through this game we could live our own saga in a Star Wars universe was totally false…instead, what we are living is their saga, they way they want us to live it.

And it’s such a horrible shame too…this is such a beautiful game, with such potential, but it’s like living in a crystal palace…everything looks nice but you can’t live in it, interact with it…it’s all just for show…like the player ships, just beautiful, but cant decorate and do anything to them that makes you feel like you’re actually living in it.

 

So at the end of the day, just like a single person game, once you are done the quest lines, there’s little to do…and just like a single person game, once you’re done, then it’s off to the next game. If BW ever hopes to keep this game going for many years, where the same players keep paying month after month for many years, they will need to redesign the environments on each planet (or at least a good number of them) so that it is a truly an open universe…but I doubt this will happen.

 

Let's take the early version of SWG as a contrast exercise...they basically built a true open universe where there were things to do on all planets all the time...there were reasons other than missions to go to other worlds even at maxed levels (player cities, mining resources, collecting hide, etc.). Thus players of maxed levels were found everywhere, all the time, which had the effect of opening up the universe by spreading the population throughout all planets. Add to this the player city bases, then later the various open pvp zones spread throughout different planets, and you could find good pvp on any particular planet at any particular time.

 

The problem with SWTOR is that they took the phrase "open world pvp" too literally...basically confining open pvp to just one world, lol. Sure you could get on a pvp server (as I have) and you are overt in most of the planets...but the problem is that most of the end game population is bottled up on Ilum or WZs and there are no compelling reasons to spread them out throughout all the planets.

 

The problem is not that Ilum failed the pvp community...it’s that having only one world for open pvp is what failed the community. And in order to fix that they would have to "open up" each world and give them good reasons for players to be all over the place all the time. But given the highly controlled nature of each world...I think it will be very hard for anyone to come up with viable ideas of getting players to planets that they have finished already. For example, even if the devs decided to implement player housing, cities, etc., the geography just won't allow for this…they would have to expand the limits of each planet to have enough real estate for player houses, etc.

 

This thread was written a few months ago and is the best option to reviving OWPVP: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=234156

The problem is that it would require the creation of new worlds just for pvp…I don’t thing BW has the resources or the time to get this all done before this game is completely barren of players. The Devs should have taken this seriously when it was written back in January.

 

Anyways, this is kind of a sad realization, given that this game could have had such potential if they had gone about designing the planets and geography in a different way...but I believe that they have gone too far beyond the event horizon to be able to pull back and redesign things so that it would be a true open universe. As it stands now, it is still a fun game on a part time basis...but it will never reach the level of player absorption (where you really feel that you are living in that universe) that SWG did for instance. I certainly don't see myself playing this game for as many years continuously as I did SWG.

[Kron_Tomezia]

Raw Open World pvp system. Similar to DAoC's New Frontiers RvR Realm Point ability system with Darkness Falls. Seige keep/ base taking and ability system gained through PvP play. With Mythic on board I had high hopes for the pvp in this game but unfortunately the PvP is so watered down and basic that I'm finding it difficult to motivate myself to even play the game anymore. I've been waiting 5+ years for this game since I heard BioWare were hiring for the Austin location I knew it was for this game. I'm really let down and disappointed... When GW2 and Tera come out I don't think I'll be able to resist them.

[masterbason]

I would like to see a true pvp war like the chip war in the rising force online =\

[Sombreza]

I think you should like I said before make open world pvp everywhere! Give objectives everywhere so we can get credits, buffs, pvp xp, rewards so forth. and in some zones make ffa pvp avalable. Also make it so where you can actually fight your guildies. What would be better then to fight your own friends. For those who have issues with thinking they are the best in the guild. So yes this is what will keep your game going and bring new blood to the game. Make it happen!

[kantnerfme]

PvP having sieges and make guilds fight outside in open areas.

also invasions in planets using space fights before landing.

[Kheld]

Hurry up & COPY DAOC goddamnit!

[JeramieCrowe]

Hurry up & COPY DAOC gosh darnit!

 

Copy? And who would the third faction be, then? And do you realize the development time that would be required in this game to implement a third faction?

 

Yeah, it'd be really REALLY nice to have a third galactic-neutral faction (Hutt/Exchange), but I'd like some open world PvP some time before 2014.

[SheaFunk]

If they do a PvPvE server. Fingers Crossed. they need to get rid of the pvp gear and make it about player skill not who has the best gear. Rated PvP like they're doing ruins mmo's on the PvP aspect. Which defeat's the purpose of a PvP server. Also for being a PvP server they sure do keep the two factions seperated while leveling. Also a kill timer would be nice. With some repercussions. Like looting there best gear if they don't have a drop item. Make them run from the repair droid to loot there body.

Thought I was Playing Star Wars not Care Bear Tickle Party

[Aurorai]

While its not quite open world PvP, what about a larger scaled warzone that lasts longer? Say you allow 16-20(more?) man teams to enter these objective based maps (like the Ilum zone) and players have to fight to take control of and hold a neutral outpost(s) or perhaps a siege scenario with turrets and so on for defense? There could be loopholes in this I haven't considered but I guess some of the advantages of this could be:

• Capped number of players on each faction so you dont have faction-biased populations dominating these
  
• Using various environment elements eg one player can carry a rocket or something to that effect to break a wall , carving the way for a team of attackers to flank a defending team holding an outpost with turrets, etc.
  
• By having players earn points for the objectives such as defending key locations, it would promote strategies for dividing up the teams, communication and so on
  
• Could be used for creating new content like planets dedicated to this, or reworking existing world regions (I believe Ilums PvP zone is being phased out to go back to the drawing board?)
  

 

It's probably not relevant, but I thought I'd throw the thought out there

 

If not, I'm all for PvPvE as there are times when there just isn't enough online or faction imbalances make it difficult.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Aurorai

[dreadgod]

anyone think there's to many stuns?

[JeramieCrowe]

anyone think there's to many stuns?

 

Nope. Resolve bar could use a little tweaking, but that's about it.

[va_wanderer]

If they do a PvPvE server. Fingers Crossed. they need to get rid of the pvp gear and make it about player skill not who has the best gear. Rated PvP like they're doing ruins mmo's on the PvP aspect. Which defeat's the purpose of a PvP server. Also for being a PvP server they sure do keep the two factions seperated while leveling. Also a kill timer would be nice. With some repercussions. Like looting there best gear if they don't have a drop item. Make them run from the repair droid to loot there body.

Thought I was Playing Star Wars not Care Bear Tickle Party

 

The point is not to separate the two at all. You put PvPvE targets in the other faction's areas, so that people are encouraged to go there but not required to.

 

You give those targets vulnerability to PvP stats, so people can get gear that is better for doing so without stomping on the toes of raiders or soloers. SWTOR already damages PvP significantly by keeping a dozen or so levels after newbiedom on areas players never see the other side.

 

You make the gear rewards for raiders be straight-up PvE. You make soloer content with gear rewards that weight towards Presence, so companions are better. You make PvP+E gear rewards that add expertise, so those players are rewarded with items that specifically boost that kind of action. In this way, everyone can get "best in slot" stuff- but for what they did to get it, rather than saying "raiding gets you the best PvP gear" or "you have to do warzones to gear up for raiding", or "I can solo for better gear than you get doing Nightmare Mode 16-mans,".

 

And forget being able to significantly loot the other guy. This isn't ever going to be "hardcore mode" PvP ala EvE or such. The loss of time and failure to reach your desired goals should be painful enough.

[Rahlex]

Frankly, the main reason world PVP has always been one of my favorite aspects of an MMO is the LACK of an objective. Why does there have to be an objective? All the options have an objective involved, why can't we have some killing be the objective?

 

On my server Ilum was at its best when it was massive teams battling it out against each other. Sure it was objective based (if you can call it that) but the only reason people wanted the central point was for armaments and to increase the valor buff. Ilum could have been better by putting Armaments at ALL capture points, dispersing the larger faction and allowing the smaller faction to then go from point to point picking off smaller groups rather than having to zerg central as that is the only place where anything good is. Crafting nodes in the zone would also bring more people to the zone and leave many single players around for possible 1v1 or small group fights. I enjoy large scale battle but many don't, and even more people's computers can't handle the large fights so the only option is to reduce the amount of players in the battles, to my dismay.

 

1) Have the entire world PVP zone give a valor buff, incentivizing people to go there and stay there even if it is just for in between warzone ques. The buff should be removed after a warzone and reapplied only if the player is in that zone. Much like the Ilum valor buff from before it gives bonus valor for PVP kills in the zone and an extra little bit from each warzone. Leave the capture points but have them increase the amount of bonus valor. The flat buff just for being there will incentivize people to be in the zone, and the increased valor from points will further incentivize people to max their valor while they're there, stimulating the PVP action over said cap points. NOT centralizing everything to one cap point for both factions to fight over will not only reduce group size ( as there is less need to zerg one point on the map ) and therefore help alleviate a lot of the performance issues people had while in Ilum. Balancing the outnumbered with NPCs or a bolster type buff would also help the servers that have heavy population imbalances where one faction is basically guaranteed to be outnumbered every day no matter what.

 

2) Letting players of the lower populated faction use their companion is one thing that may help but let's take it a step further.

 

Give players of the lower populated faction the ability to summon NPCs at a base controlled by their faction by racking up deaths. Adding an incentive to dieing will also keep people in the zone. Think of the Deathstreak reward from Call of Duty but each additional death allows 1 additional NPC to be summoned up to the amount of players the other faction has in the zone. This would make people be not so mad about being farmed by the other team but get them saying to themselves "Yeah you can have this death, but when I come back with a dozen NPC's we'll see who's laughing then", and people won't abandon the zone when they know they're outnumbered and hopeless, as with the aid of those NPC's even if you are outnumbered it isn't completely hopeless. The NPC's shouldn't be meant to be of equal power to a player but more of a threat in combination with their general or in large numbers where most likely there is also multiple enemies taking them out. This would even let solo players go out there and die a few times, get a few NPCs and go wipe out a small group of enemies for kills of his own.

 

This can be expanded to include operations commands to these NPCs. Ops leader and lieutenants can have the option to command the NPCs to attack certain enemy players, just as a team of people would coordinate focus fire, giving the NPC's the feel of a group of trainees being commanded by their General Jedi/Sith. Similar to the companion system but expanded to a group of NPC's limited only to the world PVP zone. No other game has this and if any developer can handle companion systems I would think it's you guys (Bioware).

 

Face it, 2 faction world PVP will never be perfect so we can't let perfection be the enemy of something at the least. You (Bioware) have admitted Ilum is a failure which is why this feedback request even happened, as if there wasn't feedback on the forums before Ilum was completely withdrawn and restarted. Right now there is no aspect of World PVP in this entire game and nothing that will ever be done will be perfect, ever. Ever. I'm not saying my suggestions would make it perfect, but as much as I heard the guys at the Guild Summit talk about "incentives" the whole team has failed to realize that in order to stimulate World PVP there has to be an "Incentive" for people to do so.

 

These ideas are designed to incentivize people to stay in the zone and add more incentives to actually take part in the PVP. Instead of the same old tried and failed balancing act that people have done with 2 faction PVP like buffs and static NPC's. Try something new and fresh that no one has done yet. No, it won't be perfect but at least no one can say it's a copy of anything and for that reason alone it draws appeal. I'm sure your marketing team can have a field day with this as well.

 

As I'm sure this would not be an easy task and would definitely be a lengthy endeavor, please do not leave Ilum as it is right now until then. At least revert it to how it was but with Armaments at all points and resources in the zone. That shouldn't take that long to add, but there is frustratingly little World PVP at any time of any day any more. Before it was only really good on Tuesdays for resets when everyone would try for weekly in one day, and maybe Monday while people were trying to finish before reset but since all incentives have been pushed on to Warzones Ilum and World PVP in general has been non-existent.

[Cheeseblaster]

I hope they focus more on content than gear. gear is a red herring and does not matter as much as people want to make it seem.

 

 

Raw and Guild based would be fabulous. True test of skill, and a lot of fun at that... I know this is a fantasy game, but these also reflect the real world as opposed to the fantasy everyone is equal we'll all sit around the campfire singing k u m-bay-yah and eating smores afterwards....

 

War is brutal, tough, and not fair. I'd love PVP that reflects that.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Cheeseblaster