So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[Wrathoran]

I have a question for those advocating a progression of stats on the gear.

 

When they come out with new gear with higher stats both you and the competition will acquire it. The end results is there is no meaningful change in the battles. The fight will be exactly the same as it was before the gear came out.

 

The only difference is that the numbers on your character sheet increased by a few digits, but there is no actual gain because the competition's characters sheet increased by the exact same number of digits.

 

So my question is how do you see that as progression?

 

Also, is it simply seeing the numbers on your character sheet going up that gives you the satisfaction that you're looking for?

 

mostly it come to this

 

1-rush rush rush the points to get it faster because they have more time on their hands for whatever reason

2-own people that dont have the gear

3-when getting own, return to the forum and QQ because they dont like competition

[MPagano]

People who consider gear acquisition as a type of pvp progression simply don't like the idea that "casuals" and "hardcores" are on equal footing. They believe that sinking time into something should award them a distinct advantage over players who sink less time into the game. Ironically, this is the mentality and methodology of the pve raider.

 

If you play more, you'll probably be better at playing. The only reason you would be against this obvious notion is if you aren't that good no matter how much you play, and you get beat by people who play less than you. Must be frustrating!

[Scudmungus]

Dude, the correct smiley is

 

O_o

 

o_O

 

Yours just look weird.

 

LIES O-o

[DarthWomprat]

Root of your problem - You're speaking as if gear is the point of the game.

 

In fact, it's mostly what's wrong with these games.

 

 

Wrong. A game can cater to both the hardcore and casual gamers WITH gear as being integral to the game.

[DarthWomprat]

Honestly, what's the point of a game if there isn't a bit of, "self improvement" involved. Please don't say skill, because it's such a fine line. Most people know how to play, but the people who make the time commitment should be rewarded with gear, mounts, etc.

 

Please stop the <insert the political-economic system here> (so I don't get another forum warning)

[Voloon]

Its an MMO. There is gear. Thus there is progression, there has to be, otherwise there is no point in gear.

 

If you guys are arguing that simple fact. PLAY ANOTHER GAME.

 

If you can't handle the fact that someone who puts in more effort/has more skill than you has better virtual rewards than you, you're completely missing the point of a gear based game which is to have a sense of progression. Yes, flaunting your epeen and big sword is what builds the foundations for these types of games.

 

Now that doesn't mean the current star wars model is fine or there aren't issues with gearing. If you have issues with the following:

1) How hard it is to get the gear.

2) How big the difference is between the gear.

 

Then you have something to argue. But if you're just saying everyone should get the same gear with no effort, then again, PLAY ANOTHER GAME.

 

For me, there needs to strike a balance between casual and competitive play and incentives. At the moment, star wars is just completely meaningless because getting to valor 60 is nothing but a grind, and getting gear on top of that is not skill based, but RNG based on completing dailies.

 

Once rated warzones come into play, then I believe you can start to have a gradient in the types of rewards and game styles you can cater to.

 

This is how I think it should be:

BASE GEAR

ACQUIRED GEAR

SPECIALIZED GEAR

 

Base Gear - This should be gear that you start off with. This gear should be gear that is practically given to you. Maybe after finishing a tutorial that teaches you basic pvp skills, you're given a complete set of this gear, that has a base of 10% expertise. There really shouldn't be a grind to earning gear that puts you at level where the game designers expect you should already be at. Its just cruel to be blown up so quickly.

 

Acquired Gear - This would be gear that you can slowly earn by participating in casual solo random play. This would be like 4% increase in the stats. Essentially any idiot, who even moderately tries to play, would eventually get this gear. Because this gear is such a small increase in power, yes people would have an advantage, but it wouldn't be the difference of say someone who is a fresh 50 with no expertise versus fighting a person in champion gear.

 

Specialized Gear - This should be gear that is reserved for people who participate in rated group play. Again, the increase in stats should be VERY tiny. Like another 4%. So, while someone who has this specialized gear fighting a fresh 50 with base gear, you'd feel a significant but small advantage, it's not completely game breaking. Once that fresh 50 gets acquired gear, that 8% advantage shrinks back down to 4%. Basically rated play will give you a rating which will determine how fast you get specialized gear. The better you are, the faster you get the gear. However, EVERYONE who at least tries to participates in group rated play will have COMPLETE access to the same gear, although at a slower rate.

 

This stratification will encourage people to play rated play, which is what the game ideally should be played. Organized groups working together against other organized groups. However, if one doesn't want to for whatever reason, at the very most, they will only be 4% behind in stats to the people who actually participate.

 

What people fail to realize is that competitive play CAN be REALLY fun. However, if there's no incentives to do so, people unexpectedly miss out on a type of game style they might not know is more rewarding.

 

And again, if you like playing in unorganized, bad pick up, random yelling, with no sense of team work play, you can still do so without feeling a huge penalty. But the offer of better progression in rated play will at least encourage you to try it for some pretty easy rewards. And if you're still advocating to be on completely even footing for people who are willing to put in more effort than you, even when the difference is tiny.

 

PLAY ANOTHER GAME.

 

There are plenty of great games that don't have gear.

[JaddynnStarr]

Lol I can feel the rage in this one. Am I demanding glorification, no? Its you guys saying casuals carry mmo's. You don't! We both do. We're just tired of casuals having it there way and dumbing down the games. Did anyone think SWTOR was hard at all?

 

80% of subs are casuals... money pays the bills... hardcores make up 9% at most... do the math.. kthnxbai and yes actually you are demanding it "only us hardcores can make videos and tell you how to play right".... please.....

Edited March 9, 2012 by JaddynnStarr

[Voloon]

80% of subs are casuals... money pays the bills... hardcores make up 9% at most... do the math.. kthnxbai and yes actually you are demanding it "only us hardcores can make videos and tell you how to play right".... please.....

 

Why purposely dumb down the game for casuals and cut off that (the number you pulled out of your ***) 9% market share when you can have a game with depth that accommodates both types of players. Defining terms in strict sense as casual and hardcore is pretty meaningless without context. I started out as a casual gamer. However, the game I played was complex enough that there was a sense of mastery that I could achieve, and eventually became more hardcore.

 

However, then I got more real life responsibilities, and became more casual again, but still had the competitive attitude. Players are extremely amorphous. The sign of a good game is that its easy to get into, but you can learn and be hardcore if you want to. Someone could make an MMO based on tic tac toe, to appeal to casuals, doesn't necessarily mean it will appeal to casuals or hardcore players.

[Malinok]

I actually read every post on here, and in an answer to *most* (not all) of the people saying everyone should be equal....you just don’t understand basic life mechanics.

 

If you truly want everything to be equal, and the game is NOT about gear and progression.....then make Columi gear purchasable for credits just as Champ gear will be.....since Champ is the middle tier of the 3 PVP sets at current, or why require anyone to do anything for gear.....make all gear purchasable or give every player all gear, and allow them to simply explore content if they feel like it

 

Hard Work should reap reward and benefit..

 

If people work harder, put more time and effort into their work and or education, chances are they will earn more, and with this be able to purchase finer cars and homes, affording them extra living space and luxury not available to others.

 

Just as with the game, people who dedicate more time and effort should be rewarded.....and JUST as in real life, people who have more skill...will also advance further faster, in combination with time spent.

 

Person A and B both have the same degree and both work for the same company....both work 50 hours a week.

 

Person B happens to be more intelligent and develops their skill set faster....thus they still advance within the company faster due to time spent.

 

If person A and B were equal in all ways, and person B spent more time working, then B would/should advance further faster.

 

The people themselves may be equal in their opportunity at start, but those who dedicate more time and energy to something should earn a benefit....and shocker that some people want it to be relatively tangible benefit in game such as better advanced gear from faster progression.

 

Everyone has equal opportunity, but everyone's possessions, earnings, toys, position are not equal in life, because not everyone goes about things the same way or dedicates the same time....or some simply don’t have the skill..

 

Those who are willing or who have already dedicated time and effort should not be punished or left cheated so that those who have less time or choose to spend less time can be handed things, it creates a system of diminished value. I won’t be buying any of the temp crystals avail, because based on Bioware's current track record, they will make them available again later cheaper, because newer players will see others with it, and cry.

 

Another example....person A has more time to dedicate to class work and school than person B due to legit life reasons.

 

As a result, person A takes 15 credits a week, while person B takes only 6....Person A graduates within 4 years while......person B....see's person A ahead of him, gaining advantage simply because he had more time....and cries to the university. As a result person B is told, hand us a few thousand and we will hand you the degree, no more class time or education required.

 

This is fair? Nope..but it’s what half of you are pitching for this game.

 

Person B may move on and fail because they don’t have proper skill....which is the argument, of many, to make everyone same level and let skill decide, but then what was the point of all the prior hard work before resetting the standard?

 

It also sets a dangerous precedent....and since Person B already fell behind once, why not let yourself believe you can cry again later, and get set back to same level as your more skilled and more dedicated counterparts.

 

Bioware is attempting to cater to everyone, and it doesn’t work…..it seems right now those who cry the loudest and most often will get what they ask for…so instead of listening to the individual calmly telling you the approach that makes the most logical sense, you listen to the crazy one jumping up and down in the middle of the room screaming nonsense and throwing a tantrum.

 

In the end Ill likely keep playing, as I play both for gear and content…but, who knows, maybe I can throw a tantrum later and get things restored back to the way they were.

[Bovinity]

If people work harder, put more time and effort into their work and or education, chances are they will earn more, and with this be able to purchase finer cars and homes, affording them extra living space and luxury not available to others.

 

Just as with the game, people who dedicate more time and effort should be rewarded.....and JUST as in real life, people who have more skill...will also advance further faster, in combination with time spent.

 

There you guys go again, comparing it to a job. What's the deal with that, anyway?

[Cmurallo]

Yes, there are different types of gamers.

 

There are PvPers who PvP because player versus player combat is fun, gets the adrenaline pumping, is exciting. They PvP because PvP is PvP.

 

Then there are posers. Players that don't really care about PvP, but they want the Big Gear because Big Gear means that random people will give them the recognition they desperately lack IRL.

 

 

 

It's ironic why so many posers ride the notion of "working for" gear, when they neglect "working on" their skill so damn much.

 

Priorities are just so far off.

\

 

IF THERE'S ANYONE'S PRIORITIES WHO ARE OFF, THEY'RE YOURS. SINCE YOU'VE BEEN SITTING HERE THROUGH 20+ PAGES TRYING TO SOUND AMAZINGLY SMART EVEN THOUGH YOU (get ready for some biased, entirely off based analysis of a person/ presumptuous conclusion, which you seem to constantly do) ACTUALLY WORK AT A DEAD END JOB AND HAVE BEEN PLAYING MMORPGS FOR 10+ YEARS. THAT MAKES YOU THE LOSER.

[Malinok]

There you guys go again, comparing it to a job. What's the deal with that, anyway?

 

It's simply an easy and more relatable comparison for Adults.

 

 

If there is not reward for time spent, then why spend the time, and if I spend less and less time, eventually I dont have desire to play.

 

Things should be hard, things should take time, rewards should benefit those who spend more time coupled with more skill.

 

Did I feel a sense of pride when I earned my Degree, absolutely, and it was a nice benefit, but I wouldnt go to school for years and spend thousands just to have a piece of have everyone who didnt else be equal to me....no.

 

Without the gear people wouldnt play....sure its nice to win, and it nice to down a boss in PVE.

 

First time I downed Nef in Vanilla wow I felt high....I was extatic....but then after that I wanted teh shiny gear he posessed...and downing him was about gear, not repeatedly re-accomplishing the same result.

 

Just as in PVP, winning is the goal, but winning over and over with no additional reward, gets old, and I want the gear that comes with it, and once I have it sooner than later the next set becomes available, when the next set of gear comes out, I have a head start, as it will be easier to win, easier to complete dailies, easier to earn valor....and its easier because I put in the hard work and time preivosly that advanced me slightly further than those who didnt...which it absolutely should.

[Almghty_gir]

80% of subs are casuals... money pays the bills... hardcores make up 9% at most... do the math.. kthnxbai and yes actually you are demanding it "only us hardcores can make videos and tell you how to play right".... please.....

 

so.... what are the other 11%?

[Schwarzwald]

OP

 

You are not hard core PvPer. If you were a hard core PvPer then you would demand that there be an EVEN PLAYING FIELD. Because if everyone has the same gear, then only the best and hardest of core pvpers would still win.

 

What you are asking for is a buffer so you can beat undergeared people more easily, when really that mechanic is already in place. You just grind faster then everyone, then you have a momentary window before everyone else catches up in which you are better geared than them.

 

The stated rewards for being highly rated is fine. Its cosmetic, and if you care about a fair playing field, then cosmetic things are the most you can ask for, and I am happy with them.

 

Also to all those herp-derps saying that MMO'S REQUIRE GEAR PROGRESSIONS.

 

No they don't. What part of MMO-RPG stands for getting gear? Oh wait? None of it?

 

The problem here is that if you want REAL COMPETITIVE PVP then you have to have an even gearing amongst the players, with the smart ones min/maxing certain stats better then others.

 

If you want gear progression, then you are not in favor of competitive pvp because you are asking for a handicap to be placed on the enemy because you possess better gear.

 

 

TL;DR if you are demanding a gear progression then you are not a hardcore pvper and you are not in favor of competitive pvp. You are deluding yourself. Voloon, you are one of these delusional people.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[L-RANDLE]

There you guys go again, it to a job. What's the deal with that, anyway?

 

Ok here is a small, "real/virtual" world example... Madden 12 about as "real PvP/no progression" as you can get right? Me versus my 16yr old nephew. I choose Patriots, he chooses Seattle (actually he did a random select).

 

 

I get pounded 45-21..

 

 

Tell me when the stats gave me an advantage. k? Oh... yeah if I were to take the Vikings or something... I would have lost worst.....LOL... He will always win because he is better than I am. Throw all the stats out the window. This game is no different, but some are not willing to except this...

[kenbenobi]

If the game does not feel fun, then take a break. Hc pvp or pve players cannot get new shiny gear every month. Not even if they play 14 h/day...actually you can if you make alts. Edited March 9, 2012 by kenbenobi

[Malinok]

\

 

IF THERE'S ANYONE'S PRIORITIES WHO ARE OFF, THEY'RE YOURS. SINCE YOU'VE BEEN SITTING HERE THROUGH 20+ PAGES TRYING TO SOUND AMAZINGLY SMART EVEN THOUGH YOU (get ready for some biased, entirely off based analysis of a person/ presumptuous conclusion, which you seem to constantly do) ACTUALLY WORK AT A DEAD END JOB AND HAVE BEEN PLAYING MMORPGS FOR 10+ YEARS. THAT MAKES YOU THE LOSER.

 

Hello Mr Angry forum troll, pleased to meet you.

 

First time I touched an MMO was wow....and I only played that for 2 year, so sorry to dissapoint you.

 

I make plenty of money, and just moved onto a new role within my comapany, but continue to believe you know all and all others are invalid losers if it pleases you

 

Because I took just over an hour out of my day to read some garbage and attempt to make a legit argument you make a lot of angry assumptions and responses...in all caps no less.

 

I am willing to bet you are describing yourself or you are still in highschool.

 

 

You also say which I seem to constantly do....hmmm, You should spend less time in here and more time in game.

 

Enjoy your weekend

Edited March 9, 2012 by Malinok

[Schwarzwald]

Is that the word of GOD now or something seeing as you people keep saing it like the gospel.

 

Hell even COD and BF have gear progression.

 

CoD is crap kiddy shooter that caters to casuals. BF isn't competitive.

 

CS is king of shooters, but the 'gearing' isn't 'progression' and more resource/money management.

[Trevalion]

Gear with better stats for progression is not the answer. Cosmetic changes and the ability to tweak gear for different builds IS the answer.

 

Oh wait, that's what they are doing.

 

*** is this stupidity about "casuals" and "hardcores" anyway? Who defines such twaddle? There should be no reward in a game for time spent because playing the game IS the reward, or why else would you play it? It is full of dumb-assery to assert that because you have spent more time (e.g. "effort" according to some) that you should have an advantage when playing player vs player.

 

PvE is a different dynamic and they should not be compared. Besides, Columni gear is ridiculously easy to obtain with a 2 day lock-out on normal operations (gear in normal ops is changing though folks!)

 

This troll is win though.

[Schwarzwald]

Gear with better stats for progression is not the answer. Cosmetic changes and the ability to tweak gear for different builds IS the answer.

 

Oh wait, that's what they are doing.

 

*** is this stupidity about "casuals" and "hardcores" anyway? Who defines such twaddle? There should be no reward in a game for time spent because playing the game IS the reward, or why else would you play it? It is full of dumb-assery to assert that because you have spent more time (e.g. "effort" according to some) that you should have an advantage when playing player vs player.

 

PvE is a different dynamic and they should not be compared. Besides, Columni gear is ridiculously easy to obtain with a 2 day lock-out on normal operations (gear in normal ops is changing though folks!)

 

This troll is win though.

 

I would define a hardcore person as someone who doesn't want to waste their time with bad teammates. A person who enjoys min/maxing their gear and plays to WIN. They will get mad over game mechanics but at least have something of an argument to back them up.

 

A casuals do not care about how well their gear is, even if they tell you they do. They will not really think out which abilities do what and do not read the forums. These are the players you see earning less then 4 medals in a warzone. These are the people who will get mad in a warzone and not have any idea as to the actual cause of them being mad.

[Iite]

Real Hardcore players just shrug off changes such as these because they will find a way to win regardless of gear.

 

Now people that rage over gear changes.....

 

I don't even need to finish the sentence.

[Malinok]

Ok here is a small, "real/virtual" world example... Madden 12 about as "real PvP/no progression" as you can get right? Me versus my 16yr old nephew. I choose Patriots, he chooses Seattle (actually he did a random select).

 

 

I get pounded 45-21..

 

 

Tell me when the stats gave me an advantage. k? Oh... yeah if I were to take the Vikings or something... I would have lost worst.....LOL... He will always win because he is better than I am. Throw all the stats out the window. This game is no different, but some are not willing to except this...

 

I am willing to wager you nephew has put way more time and energy into playing madden and the releases before it that he simply understands the game better....but that still comes down to time spent, yes his reward is whopping on you, because he has played/practiced much more often and enjoys playing the game.

 

If Madden 12 was the last madden to be released, I bet over time he plays it less and less, because winning the same game over and over gets boring if there is not other reward to be sought after, he waits till the next madden when there are new players and perhaps new content.

 

So are you sayinf PVP'ers should be happy only to win, and not want anything else, and after winning like crazy, just stop playing or cancel subscription till new BG's open?

 

The gear adds a sense of content and reward to PVP.

 

the stats gave you a better chance to succeed, even if you did not take it, which goes to my point, its a combination of skill and time spent.

 

If you played and practived madden 2x as much as him, im willing to wager you could destroy him with green bay. You may have more to do IRL, less time to spend, and thats ok, perfectly reasonable, but then you shouldnt expect to jump in and win when you do.

 

I cant play half as much as many on my server because of my Job and my social life. There were BM's on my server before I hit 50, there were people in Rakata gear before I ran BT enough to get my Columi bracers, but I certainly dont say I deserve to be equally geared to them, or see same content as fast as them, they put more time in because they chose this as their time spent, and they should earn their in game reward as such.

 

If I waltz into a BG and destroy a BM in my non PVP gear, that is strictly skill, it doesnt mean he doesnt deserve his gear, or that there shouldnt be gear, its neither here nor there, he put in time and that is his reward, if he still cant win, doesnt matter...

[AngryBuddhist]

CoD is crap kiddy shooter that caters to casuals. BF isn't competitive.

 

CS is king of shooters, but the 'gearing' isn't 'progression' and more resource/money management.

 

CS is a pathetic hackfest.

 

Valve Anti-Cheat is the world's biggest joke.

 

Valve graphics look like something the cat ate and pooped out.

 

Valve games all look the same.

[Trevalion]

I would define a hardcore person as someone who doesn't want to waste their time with bad teammates. A person who enjoys min/maxing their gear and plays to WIN. They will get mad over game mechanics but at least have something of an argument to back them up.

 

A casuals do not care about how well their gear is, even if they tell you they do. They will not really think out which abilities do what and do not read the forums. These are the players you see earning less then 4 medals in a warzone. These are the people who will get mad in a warzone and not have any idea as to the actual cause of them being mad.

 

This was a well thought out and reasoned answer and I learned something. Thanks Although in this thread particularly this definition of the words "hardcore" and "casual" has not been apparent. But really, assigning value judgments to people who arent you is never a winning proposition.

 

I guess I just come from the "let people be whatever as long as Im having fun" sort of mentality. Also, I find it hard to imagine that anyone who plays a game that they have to pay monthly for would fall into the "casuals" category.

[Vaipyr]

saying casuals carry mmo's. You don't!

 

Actually they do. The "ZOMG HARDCORE! PvPERS!!!!!" make up a very very small % of the playerbase. Which means they make up a tiny fraction of the income generated. Which means that in the long run financially if there is a group that can be cut off (like a cancer) it is you. Casuals carry, fund and own MMO's (and quite frankly most gaming genre's). You aren't needed, and because of your general attitudes (obviously this is a generalization) you are unwanted for the most part. ZOMGHARDCORE!!!!!!!!!!! pvpers for the most part act like complete douchewads. It's even worse in games with public VoIP.

 

The irony here is that alot of the self proclaimed HCPvPers quite frankly aren't. No TRUE pvper wants huge gear disparities. That is the antithesis to competitive sport/gaming. They also don't go around yelling at everyone about how ****** they are while everyone else is a scrub. They don't need to. The other players in the scene know them, what they've accomplished and how good they are already.