1 Juggernaut vs 4 what evers, who won? ME CAUSE IM A *********** JUGGERNAUT AND IM RAGE SPECCED AND THESE BADDIES KEEP CLUSTERING UP AROUND MY AOE

sonic barrier is better then deafening defense imo

its only useful in pvp when you are vengeance specced. Other then that its still effectively worthless in immortal.

It makes me really sad that I only see 1-2 huttballs a day if I am lucky. Please let me veto maps. I'd only play on NC and Huttball though.

l2read. If you want to be a damage sponge as a juggernaut you are going to have a bad time. I said they are a joke if you look at their mitigation in comparison to their medium armor counterpart.

tell that to sage/sorcs

But the vanish can be used to interrupt ranged attacks on you. Also, Stop bringing up other classes. I am comparing Maras to Jugs. Also, newsflash. I never stated that Juggernauts should have more escapes. I said they need to be better at mitigation and damage reducing abilities, and right now, Marauders abilities top anything that Jugs have. Undying Rage Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds. 90s CD That sounds like it can be used in every engagement and the ability is even better when you have a healer to get you back up. Invincible Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. 180s CD This can only be used a few times in a warzone, half the amount that Undying Rage could potentially be spent. And while it is nice, you will not survive focus fire from a bunch of people, unlike you would with Undying Rage. The point I am trying to make is that when properly used marauder damage mitigating abilities are 'better' then juggernauts, and ontop of that they have really good escapes that can be activated through roots. While Juggernaut mobility/'escapes' require teammates that are in line of site and that you are not rooted. Also that Marauder damage output 100% trumps that of Juggernauts. So pretty much it boils down to that Juggernauts are only more mobile when things are ideally set up and have more utility. I'm not trying to say that jugs are underpowered. I think our class is in a really good spot right now, besides the lack of damage mitigation that we have always had. Rage used to be overpowered, but that was fixed. Its time to fix Marauder abilities.

Bioware stated (when speaking about class design) that the difference between jugs and marauders would be that Marauders would have 5% more damage output while juggernauts would have 5% more survivability. This simply isn't true in the games current state. It was actually close to being true in beta, but things have changed a lot since then. My point is that between the two AC's of warriors, Marauders have more damage and more survivability. I would say that jugs have better utility when properly utilized, but you can't be using it if you are a joke of a class when it comes to mitigation.

I said you can vanish through roots and snares. If you are going to think that my semantic error of out and through are the pinnacle of your argument as to why Sent/Mara are not OP, then I have lost all hope for humanity. Not out of them. You can still vanish, remove yourself from being targeted, do your self heal. Go and even attempt to intereced as a jug while rooted, see what happens.

An assassin is a tank class. /facepalm

What are you talking about? Care to name the Skills that would require such a distribution of points?

Yes, they can vanish through roots and snares. keep denying reality. There is nothing in rage that offers then survivability besides payback, and honestly, you are a really bad marauder if you are even considering rolling Rage. So please tell me, where are these skills that would require 31/31/31? Seems like you are just a bad player who doesn't think their class is OP because they are not good enough to be OP. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100dIrRMRbfsZGMM.1 In terms of defensive CD's The only thing this build doesn't have is the removal of snares and roots, but you can still vanish out of it, disengage from combat for a long period of time and get massive amounts of self heals. If you are not having your dot upkeep all the time then you are simply bad at your class. Sort of like how I argued constantly that Rage was OP pre-1.2, which it was. But all the bad players seemed to think that the spec was still trash pre-1.2. The willful ignorance here is mind blowing.

Oh yeah, also, one point I'm trying to make that I forgot. I wasn't talking about them being able to live while doing damage. I already do those things, such as stuns, any body with a brain should be doing them. But that doesn't undo the fact that those CD's still keep them alive longer then a juggernaut. in 1 1v2 situation 1 Marauder can solo defend a node in Alderaan much longer then a juggernaut would in the same situation. If you try to argue this fact you are simply a bad marauder who doesn't manage CD's properly.

Those people attacking your juggernaut must have some terrible DPS then if they are unable to drop him. A scoundrel and a sentinel should be able to drop an Immo jug from 100% to dead in less then then 2 GCD's. Stop lying out your ***. Also, you can cover the same amount of distance with force camo as you can with an interecede, stop being so bad at this game. The advantage with yours is that you can use it while rooted and we cannot. The only huge advantage intercede has is in huttball, but really, most good players won't let you get away if you are at low health, thats why there is this thing called ranged classes in a game. Meanwhile a marauder can go hide behind something and no one knows where he went until he is spotted again.

my friend frequently 5k+ anni crits every game without the use of relic/adrenals. Sorry that you are so bad at this game and cannot drop heavy armor targets to below 50% health in 2 GCD's. The heal from endure pain is just a bandaid. And its only 5k health which is absolutely nothing compared to how damage works right now. The entire point of my post is that their defensive CD's are way too OP and the base damage mitigation that players get really doesn't matter. Once a heavy armor class is sundered, for all intensive purposes, they will die just as fast as any other class if you ignore defensive CD's. Endure pain will keep you alive for maybe 1-2 GCD's and are only really effective if you use the EARLY before you take a lot of damage so you can maximize the health gained. The marauders can just dive in over their heads, pop their what ever the **** the ability is called before they die, take no damage, then heal back up to 25% with their hots. Thats ignoring their ability to vanish out of roots/snares. You are very bad at playing a marauder if you think they are as good as a juggernaut in terms of survivability. Again, you think I want to remove your classes ability to play, no I don't, I just don't think your class should be able to outlive a tank archetype when they are focus firing.

on average, when I'm full immo I'll normally sit on average somewhere around 220-250k damage with anywhere from 30-80k defense on average. maybe higher numbers in either of those if I was focusing more on somethign really hard and what not. as hybrid 18/23 immo veng, If i'm healed and playing well I'll do up to like 350k damage and maybe squeeze in at least 30k defense. but the longer I'm in soresu, my damage drops dramatically. Most huttballs though, I am usually lower on the damage end because I focus on playing the objective. I'll maybe have 150k damage but I'll have around 10-15k objective points.

Juggernauts get saber ward, which you have, and invicible which is on a 3 minute CD. Enraged defense is so useless its effect is negligible in pvp. Your class without your CD's would live about just as long as a juggernaut. The problem is the nature of your abilities. I would be all for buffing your mobility, evasion and escape like abilities if you had your damage reduction removed. A good marauder when using all their CD's can outlive a juggernaut of equal skill when under the same amount of focus fire. I'm not saying to nerf your class into the ground. I'm saying that tank classes should have more survivability then one of the highest burst classes in the game. doing 5k annihilation crits and then going into god mode live forever is just too much.

pvpve is not going to happen not within any foreseable future.

Expertise is needed to keep purely raiding guilds from dominating warzones, like what happened early in Vanilla WoW,.

The problem is you cannot charge or intercede while rooted. So technically, its not an escape. Its a mobility ability. It can be used like an escape if utilized properly ahead of time. The problem with marauders is they have too many 'oh ****, i'm in over my head' cards. Jug abilities work amazing if they are used preemptively before you are in over your head. Marauders can ignore alot of that planning and just dive in head first and live longer under focus then a juggernaut can. I mean, I can grab a huttball from center and score within 10-15 seconds if people are set up in the right spots and I can get my interecede and double charge. Yeah, we have more mobility then Marauders, but we don't have more ESCAPES. They have a 45 second vanish that they can use to get out of roots and other slowing effects. We don't. If you want to talk about huttball running, we can talk about huttball running. But I am specifically talking about their ability to survive focused DPS much longer then immortal jugs can (if the marauder is smart enough, and there are alot of pants on head retarded marauders out there), and their escapes feed into their ability to live so long. If you are focused and rooted, then you can't charge away. But marauders can, like if you are trying to defend a capture point on alderaan, and you get rooted and someone is on the opposite side of the node capping, you cannot get to them most of the time. But a Marauder can just vanish out of the root and stop the cap. Invincible is a great skill that Jugs have. But its a 3 minute CD. All the Marauder CD's are so freaking short, it is nuts.

remove sent/marauder dmg reduction abilities make their escapes slightly better. Give their dmg reduction abilities to juggernaughts and buff enraged defense. There the game is balanced The problem with mara/sent atm is that they have the best of both world when it comes to defensive CD's. They have really good escapes and damage avoidance and they also have very good tanky/dmg reduction abilities. Its just waaay too much. They live longer under focus then a majority of the tank classes. Immo jugs cannot even compare to survivability while focused.

Okay, so I was in a game, ignoring everything else around me. A carnage sent and a scoundrel jumped me at the same time. I am an immortal jug normally, and while I wear DPS gear, I am always in soresu in this spec. Scoundrel jumped me with his knockdown opener, I was dead within 1 GCD when the sentinel charged me at the same time. Dead in 1 GCD. I have 16420hp 47% dmg reduction from armor and 1143 expertise which is 17.99% pvp dmg reduction. I died in 1 GCD. The problem is that engagements go to fast when you have multiple people focus firing and there is absolutely nothign you can do against it in the short windows it comes from. No player can peel fast enough unless they were already in the process of stunning a bunch of people. There is a 4% difference from pvp gear damage output to reduction. Every time another person is attacking you that is another 4% additional DPS you are receiving. So not only are you already getting focused by 2-3 people, but you are now also taking an additional 8-12% damage because of the way expertise works. That gear gap is additive with each person focusing. Guarding a heavy armor healer with 3-4 people focusing them, both the healer and tank will die in less then 3-4 gcd's. I don't want it to be the way it was before, with overhealing stalemates, but the game just plays out way to fast now. Scoundrels are sooooooo freaking OP its not funny. Got jumped by one while still in that same immo build, I was at 30% health within 2 GCD's and he was at 100% b/c you don't have any good stun to trinket out of without just getting stunned again.

it is coming

Yeah, its my favorite build currently. And by default that means its the best build.

And what if the defending person has 1 person dedicated to never come out of stealth unless absolutely necessary. That one person can chain sap any person who comes even close to doing a full cap. This is more then enough time for a group to transition from the X position. Yeah, sure a whole group appears on the point at once, but one stealther can still delay them long enough for the rest of your team to be ontop of the platform defending the capture point.