I sense something... A feeling I have not had since...

I'm going to have to disagree with your interpretation here Firstly, your not "EARNING" anything. Your spending time in the pvp system, which gives you the rewards just for being there. Does that mean that you think the afker or someone who contributes very little "EARNED" like you did? No, they got the same reward for joining. It doesn't matter (currently) how you spend your time in the pvp system. Whether you win or lose you still get the rewards (tokens) just for showing up. To me, that is not "EARNING" anything. That is just time-in-grade. Its fun to win, and less fun to lose. People play pvp to win. Because there is an artificial stats advantage that helps you win more, people grind the gear. But there is no dependance between the fun of winning and grinding gear. Its just that is the only way the system rewards you. PVP right now is about "EARNING" an advantage through the gear sets obtained by spending time playing PVP. Ridonkulous. Time spent in pvp (imo) should != advantage over players with less time logged. Time spent in PVP should result in recognizable cosmetic rewards or more flexibility in distributing a players stats. Rating in PVP should result in recognizable cosmetic rewards and flexibility in distributing a players stats beyond the "base". I want people to be able to look/inspect me and see my prowess (or lack of it in my case). But it is a mistake to equate that skill with wearing a gear set that gives you a stat advantage that lets you plow people under. Give me the gear on the market to bypass the stupid advantage earning bs, which we have all endured since the game came out, and then give better, more recognizable rewards for my pvp time. Here's my suggestion for compromise, it works for free and subbed players. 1) Remove the expertise stat from all armoring, mods and enhancements in the game 2) Make all the PVP sets just be shells obtainable only through pvp tokens. 3) Keep the relics and ear and implants obtainable through pvp tokens. (no expertise but provide BIS variations) 3) Anyone who joins a pvp match gets the same base set of stats to represent armor and weapon slots, then they can flexibly assign the "extra" stats that come from augment, relic, ear and implant. If a player is not wearing those, then those slots get bolstered to a base set of "extra" stats 4) Get rid of the "ranked" system and make all players gain/lose rank (elo) in any warzone they enter (16 or 4 player). Keep a group and solo queue. Keep a solo + group rating. The result is warzones where all players have the same base stats with flexibility to tune those stats through augments, relics, ear and implants. The shell your wearing determines the base stats for armor and your set bonus. Winning gives you rank which = more reward objects Losing still gives you time in pvp = different reward objects. You still get tokens to buy gear shells from win/loss + participation. Then you can start making the rewards for PVP more meaningful (to me) than a simple stats advantage that is annoying to play through. For instance, PVP armor shells give a unique set bonus Unique PVP armor shells Unique solo rating rewards Unique group rating rewards Unique color crystals Unique dye Unique mounts Unique pets Unique vanity items

Why does everyone feel like gear == progression in PVP? I mean, I can understand that for PVE since gear is a defacto gateway to content. You cannot get the rewards of completing a nightmare mode operation if your gear gates you from progressing. You have to start with lower content that you can complete and work your way up. That is progression. The same is NOT true for PVP. All the warzones are the same from the moment you start queing, till you get tired of it and do something else. All the rewards are the same in warzones, there is no achievement or progression. I can queue a warzone all day long in any gear or naked or whatever. The rewards are for queuing and to a lesser extent, contributing. Now playing PVP against someone who has a huge stat difference is painful (sometimes) but nothing about the reward for PVP, or doing the PVP changes as I gear up, it just becomes less painful. Reward in PVP should be (sarcastically mentioned by a previous poster) ranking on a ladder because it is the only thing that uniquely identifies player gains by doing PVP. Using gear as a progression meter stick for PVP is asinine. Everyone explaining how they got their gear so fast playing casually is really just proving that point. Gaining gear in PVP has no meaning except leveling the playing field against other people who have gear, and gaining an advantage over people who don't have gear. I have spent enough time on both sides of that divide to recognize it as obfuscation. The real value of playing PVP is having a good time. For me personally, the best times are close games, nail biters when it can go either way and a spectacular play gives the win. Why does the system gate having a good time on how much time you have spent "paying dues" by letting other people who have more time logged have a straight up stats advantage? Well obviously bolster is designed to alleviate that problem, and it mostly works, see all the testimonials about how min/maxed 2nd tier is close enough to 1st tier that you can compete because of bolster. So if bolster is already working and other players can obviously "gear up" fast enough that they dont have a problem, what is the issue with buying PVP sets for money? It doesn't change anything about the PVP at all. Its not really a valid meter for progression, its just an artificial gateway that doesnt even have the same validity as PVE gear progression. Whatever.

In a good business, the customer is always right. I'm not saying BW has to do anything. I'm suggesting it. If the system requires time investment and its good enough to keep me interested then yes, I would use it. I'm here aren't I?

I could live with this. I don't really understand the need to "earn" gear in the same way. I must acknowledge that it is meaningful.

I can see where you are coming from. The current system works, it has workarounds in place to overcome gearing alts. Its tedious. Its still very unforgiving for a fresh 55 player. Especially one that hasn't had the full suite of "for galactic credits" upgrades (augments + kits). If you can spend up the "for galactic credits" upgrades then you are competitive against top-tier gear using bolstered gear. (Its relatively easy to game the bolster system). If not it still only takes a couple of weeks to gear to 2nd tier, which makes you viable (with augments) for yolo queue. From their its a month of solid waiting for pops to finish a top tier set. Finally the speed of the above is regulated by promotional effects, such as x2 token gains. The time taken to do that cycle over and over again (for alts) can have some inverse effects as well, which effectively dilate the time taken. Increase it, you see. Stuff that all of us have to cope with. Family, job loss, job requirements, recreation of all forms etc. You guys don't get it. The current system is working. I feel like I have spent enough time subbed in the game that I understand it. It will continue be working exactly the same if they could release the PvP sets to the market. All of the current avenues to obtain it will still be available. Whats different is the effing TIME. Now, my time must be as equal as your time. Because seriously, that's the service they are providing us. We PAY them for time on the system. Even F2P players pay them for time on the system, but its more of a gamble for them. Now the system has rules, some of which are inviolate to the community at large. Since people are paying them for time in the system then the system must reward the players. For many players (and this is a cardinal rule of such a system) they associate time spent with value. Since this system is virtually interactive, the rewards for that system while virtual have value. That value correlates with TIME spent obtaining it. The service I am asking for is to allow me to shortcut the required time spent in the game in exchange for some money. I value my time in the game enough to give them MORE money to allow me to shortcut time spent. It's obviously controversial. The feeling I get is that by allowing time to be shortcut for any player then somehow the time spent by any other player who didn't has less intrinsic value. Your PAYING THEM FOR A SERVICE, you already get the value in the set of rules the service exposes. I like this service. I will keep paying for it because it's fun for me. I would pay more for a shortcut service. Its obviously Its easy to do, and Im going to play the warzones anyway

When you say EARNING it what do you mean? You must simply mean time spent because you get the gear for showing up. Not for winning. In fact, I think people are misunderstanding. I LIKE warzones. I will play them in a house, I will play them with a mouse. I will even play them in the current scenario cause it's not terrible. What I don't understand is why people think that time spent should equal a complete stats advantage though. Or why people think that because they have spent time that they somehow deserve it. The stats advantage exists though. It's dumb. Put the armor on the market, or as someone else suggested make it freely available. I get that the MMO meta is all about gear grind. Its a carrot. That works well for PvE where a player is continuously preparing for new content. PVP IS it's own content. It seems obvious as we only have gotten 3 new 16 player maps and 4 8 player maps since release. They are still fun. PVE is different. Once it's on farm mode you just go through the motions to get the gear. PvP is never farm mode because the skill level of your opponents is random. Sometimes you dominate, other times you get dominated, and the best is when its a relatively equal fight. Why is there an artificial stats gap? It doesn't need to be there. It adds to the chance of getting dominated in a given match up. Whatever. Since there is a gap, why cant I just bypass the "normal" MMO stupidity and buy the gear set? I think swtor pvp is good enough that it doesn't need that carrot. I think it would be more fun if everyone was equal. The design team obviously thought so too because Bolster. However thats broken. And lets be honest. EA/BW is running a for profit business. Putting the PVP gear on the market would = income.

Meh, you already deal with it as a fresh 55, whats different?

Ill *********** complain if I want. Change only comes from agitation

Its equal access because both avenues are still available to gear any player for PVP. I don't want the current system to go away, I just want the option to get my alt's sets quickly by paying cash for it. Its equal because ANY player can decide to do it. Just like now you can decide to drop 20$ for a server change or a name change, or a hypercrate of gamble packs etc. I don't see what the big deal is. If your already geared then this would mean nothing to you except more competition on an equal footing. If you don't want to drop cash you can grind up the long way. Same as always. Nothing changes except possibly a few more geared people queuing. If you have a little disposable income you buy up the set you want. Who is losing by implementing this? The only players who could complain are the ones who don't have the gear AND don't have the money. Simply put, this means the f2p preferred players who are using weekly warzone passes off the GTN. To whom I say, good on you. PVP is better if you have a subscription + you get cartel coins every month. Dropping money on gear sets doesn't = time spent playing. You don't automatically learn your class and get better at PVP by having gear. You just have a more competitive environment for doing it in.

Being able to buy the gear on the cartel market would REMOVE the substantive advantage because all would have access to it equally. It would not be pay to win. It would be pay for quick access to the advantage that is ALREADY there because of the gear disparity. I would love to have that advantage simply negated. Bottom line. Ive put in the time to gear my main and I want to gear my alts by bypassing the grind. Secondary point: The current grind makes no sense for PVP. I understand the system. I play in the system. I'm complaining about the system in the hope that a future system will be better.

I cant spend enough hours in game to grind ranked in order to obtain and min/max the current top tier set across all my alts. The time required is unreasonable. I've already sunk over a year into PVP in this game and the grind does nothing for me. Don't get me wrong, I really like the instanced PVP, and world PVP (when it happens) is usually pretty darn awesome. I will continue to play and slowly gear out all my alts. I have elite warlord on my main, and all of my 55 alts are well up over conqueror valor level. That is my main problem though. Although I will be playing the PVP anyway (its where I get the most enjoyment in the game), and I'm going to get the gear by default just by playing, it takes to long to gear out alts over and over. But I want to. I want all my alts to be geared. However, my personal time is too valuable compared to having geared alts so I don't do it. It takes to effing long. I want to be able to BUY both teirs of PVP gear sets with the Cartel coins I can save up for my subscription bonus or buy outright. It's not pay to win, and here is why I believe that. First, a little anecdotal experience if you care. The tier of the armor set you have doesn't guarantee you victory. In fact, I have seen and experienced multiple warzones where people (other than myself) whose gear set I know because I know them personally, are destroyed by other people who are less geared but more experienced. It goes without saying that I have ridden that horse too. But the gear does make a difference in straight up numbers. You do more damage to lower tier geared and take less damage from lower tiered geared players. Period. Indisputable. In fact the whole paradigm of SWTOR pvp right now is that; If you have put in the time to get the gear you DESERVE to do more damage and take less damage from players who have put in less time than you. I think this is a terrible reward system for PVP. It affects all players negatively. Let me buy the PVP gear instead of grinding for PVP gear, and then give rewards for time spent playing PVP that are less disparate than the indisputable advantage that comes from wearing top tier gear. Right now my only real reward for time spent is just a title. I would prefer bonuses other than gear that give advantages to a higher valor player (PvP skill tree's, gear shells with unique set bonuses, optimization options not available at lower valor levels, unique mounts, unique dyes, unique pets, the list goes on). In PVP the gear disparity should NOT be my carrot. Also, please, I am aware that Bolster is supposed to be alleviating that problem. My personal opinion is that it is somewhat effective, but not as effective as I want it to be. For bolster to really work it should give 100% parity in gear. But the Bolster system is demonstrably buggy and exploitable. Simplify things for me as a paying customer. You don't have to change your system at all, just put the PVP gear on the Cartel market. Hopefully in the future you can implement better PVP reward systems. And for all the folks flaming: Main: Trevalion (Commando) 55 Alts: Deathticle (Shadow), Hightower (Sentinel), Octaire (Guardian) 30-54 Alts: Trevalion (Scoundrel), Epica (Sage), DarkOrb (Gunslinger), Treva'tiger (powertech), ... Server: Harbinger Black-Ball legacy

Im not black, but I still get high

What about those of us who quit because our chosen main classes were fubared for so long but we are coming back because mando's are getting a healthy buff in 2.7 and our ranked rating was so bad because not only are we (I am) so bad at this game that everyone mocked us but we rolled the most nerfed class of the last two years. BTW, can I join your guild?

Geez, nothing is more annoying than starting a spike on a scoperative and that stupid absorb relic goes off. It's almost enough to make a person not want to play ranked. As a matter of fact I haven't been queuing any ranked matches. I did get a laugh out of winning a 2v1 in a voidstar because of a good proc on the absorb relic though. Anyway, good luck with the new house chief. I hope you don't need those towels because your dog is piddling on your new floors!

I only pvp, because I find pve pretty boring. But I shore 'aint a gunna pay fer no transfer. Plus, the pops are regular on this server and since I only get a few hours at most per day, pvp fits me. I don't want to re-roll, all my stuff and legacy are here. I dont want to run progression ops or HM flashpoints either, cause learning the scripted AI is fun, but after that it's dull as cow patties. PvP is where it's at. Why you hate on pvp focused players? People who do both pve and pvp dont bother me. Bolster works for them. /shrug

I dont understand, but keep posting pretty links, those are fun.

vornskyr representin Plus, I really am happy to have games that are against good players, for months the average imperial teams were pretty slow.

*crickets* No drama here chief. Just seeing some solid Imperial groups queuing with the rest of us. Sorta makes regulars more fun you know?

It was good to see some solid Imperials ruining the server pvp by queuing up last night. Keep up the good work!

This is such idiocy. I dont even... What? Whats even more funny is people leaving a server for a more better server, and then coming back. Why would I pay to transfer? What a joke.

Im sorry, do I know you? I have a perception problem. Anyone who transferred off this server for pvp, and then came back, or kept an alt on here for "just in case pvp sucks over there", is a bad player who only eats dirty toilet paper and drinks teh peh peh.

Only a dill-hole would have paid to transfer a character for ranked 8v8 games that wont even be here in a month. Only ******s think that playing ranked 8v8 is the only way to be a good pvp player. Solo Queue more you *****es and carry some scrubs if your all that. All the elitists and jerks that I have played with over the last two years can scrub my potatoes, because I still have fun. I still love you though.

What do you think I mean?

whatevs. Im a non-factor anyway.