So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[Dayfax]

I've been playing role playing games online since the early 1990s and I don't remember these times you are talking about. As far as I remember, it was always about showing off because you were the best and had the best gear. It did, however, have an element of teamwork involved, which is why I think you remember things with rose coloured glasses. It was the teamwork that made older games different, not the lack of elitism. Elitism was still there and I don't believe elitism is a bad thing to have.

 

Very well said.

[Tic-]

I've been playing role playing games online since the early 1990s and I don't remember these times you are talking about. As far as I remember, it was always about showing off because you were the best and had the best gear. It did, however, have an element of teamwork involved, which is why I think you remember things with rose coloured glasses. It was the teamwork that made older games different, not the lack of elitism. Elitism was still there and I don't believe elitism is a bad thing to have.

 

Hmm.. i guess my personaly crafted valorite armor in UO was the "best" gear, but no different than regular when i PvPd with my Macer.

 

The crafted gear in DAoC was all pretty similiar (well, until that whole TOA debacle.. that went well ), not overly "progressive", and the same with SWG... If you have been playing online MMOs since the early 90s, perhaps you remember the gear from Neverwinter Nights as well then? Most pvpers had a "clam", a mace +3, and the same gear. Hardly progressive.

 

I didn't say elitism or teamwork didn't exist, actually, i said the opposite. You fought for your guild, and realm, typically with... teamwork. And to the victor went the elitism, and spoils, that weren't specific to the individual. Crazy thought in a massive multiplayer game eh?

 

I am saying it wasn't always about getting your next BiS, and if there wasn't one, have a 100 page thread on why "we" need another tier of gear or, PvP is "fail".

 

It wasn't about 8v8 in another instanced, that has no meaning or purpose within your "massive online world", which i was reffering to in the post and line i highlighted

 

rose colored glasses......

Edited March 24, 2012 by Tic-

[Nerdock]

what does a challenge have to do with a gear gap and an advantage out of the gate in what is supposed to be the person behind the keyboard against the person behind the keyboard. IF you support a gear gap how is this game not for you? because the gap is not big enough and players who start after you have a chance to compete against you?

and i would really like to hear your explanation of how having the same stats as the person your trying to kill is less challanging than being bm against a fresh 50.

 

so im not for a gear gap, first of all, i think it makes for irritating gameplay and he who has the most times wins, as usual.

 

so to answer your question about even geared 50's or fresh 50 vs bm or something, and challenging gameplay: I think that if (for instance) a marauder (or any other of the other gorram classes that can stealth) stealths, and i use death field to predict his movements and pull him out of stealth, i just outplayed that person HARD. thats the kind of game i want to play. now granted when they get to me, its gg, because im a sorc and my defense is crap, but the principle remains.

 

your "question/challenge(?)" if i can call it that, is also oddly phrased. which character would i be in each scenario? for instance: if i was a bm vs a fresh 50, i think that gear there makes the difference, talk about a steamroll. if you think i meant something else from my previous post, i sure didnt. i think that pvp gear in any game ruins it every time. hands down. i also think that 2 people with equal gear (disregarding class balance, since there isnt any, (in any mmo) have far more possibilities to be challenged because then theyre on an even playing field, whereas a BM vs "ohai i have greens" isnt a challenge, the BM just has more time on his hands.

[Nerdock]

so im not for a gear gap, first of all, i think it makes for irritating gameplay and he who has the most times wins, as usual.

 

so to answer your question about even geared 50's or fresh 50 vs bm or something, and challenging gameplay: I think that if (for instance) a marauder (or any other of the other gorram classes that can stealth) stealths, and i use death field to predict his movements and pull him out of stealth, i just outplayed that person HARD. thats the kind of game i want to play. now granted when they get to me, its gg, because im a sorc and my defense is crap, but the principle remains.

 

your "question/challenge(?)" if i can call it that, is also oddly phrased. which character would i be in each scenario? for instance: if i was a bm vs a fresh 50, i think that gear there makes the difference, talk about a steamroll. if you think i meant something else from my previous post, i sure didnt. i think that pvp gear in any game ruins it every time. hands down. i also think that 2 people with equal gear (disregarding class balance, since there isnt any, (in any mmo) have far more possibilities to be challenged because then theyre on an even playing field, whereas a BM vs "ohai i have greens" isnt a challenge, the BM just has more time on his hands.

 

also:

 

 

There needs to be a meaningful carrot other than cosmetics to work your way too.

 

100% of korea and guild wars competitve e-sports players disagrees with you.

[Jrovak]

LOTSA RUBBISH TO SAY I DONT LIKE GEAR I AM LAZY

 

 

100% of korea and guild wars competitve e-sports players disagrees with you.

 

look at aion korea these players would call your esport Ecrap

[Koconutt]

Ohhh, it's sooo gear specific. All MMOs are.

 

Green then blue etc. Seen that before anywhere? Oh yes, all of them.

 

Don't expect to solo your way to 50 then get involved in pvp. Skill is for nothing when top gear can add circa 10k to your health and provide divine intervention to your dps.

 

MMOs reward grind. Race to 50 then collect tokens, badges, emblems and plaques or whatever. Otherwise you poor souls leave and play something else.

 

There is no skill, only gear. Remember the dev vids where they argued about which class would come out on top in a duel? What a laugh. Forget that and only ask who has all the purple gear instead.

 

Holo dancer with gear v Jedi with solo quest rewards. My money is on the dancer. Wow (sorry for the pun)! That's not very Star Wars is it? But it's very MMO.

 

My new MMO will be out soon. You all play small mice who navigate an endless array of confusing passageways. Your reward is a piece of cheese that gets bigger every time you manage to find your way out.

 

Trust me, you'll feel great when you first achieve your first piece of purple Edam gear.

 

So, Mice in mazes anyone?

 

P.S. I otherwise really like the original features of the game.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Koconutt

[Cheeseblaster]

Funny how we "want to get carried" when we are advocating gear that you can only acquire if you win many skilled based competitions against other high rated competetive players.

If you think you are so good then why don't you also rank up and get access to the same gear? By the time you get full rated gear you will be playing at a rating where everyone has that gear.

 

Oh yeah i think we all know the answer to that one.

 

Spoiler:

 

You will NEVER EVER come even close to getting rated gear. You didn't in WoW and you won't here. You simply want to whine your way to the best stuff.

 

It won't matter what i say though. When everyone has equal gear and you still lose you will simply blame "stacked comps" or OP classes or whatever. QQ the no lifers premade have only tanks and healers QQ BIOWARE why can't you make it so i always win?

 

Excellent point.

 

 

But the above is absolutely correct, even if handed a set of BM gear the second they hit 50, these people will still be whining about losing...

Edited March 25, 2012 by Cheeseblaster

[Jrovak]

Excellent point.

 

 

But the above is absolutely correct, even if handed a set of BM gear the second they hit 50, these people will still be whining about losing...

 

It is going to be the next big topic when 1.2 hits live.

The casuals will get stomped by premades in ranked WZ, and the argument will move from gear unbalance to premades are OP please stop them.

[Jeskelech]

They never seem to learn that in these games, it's not about what you have, it's about making the most of what you got.

 

I thought you were talking about a game here, not about life in general

[Izola]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

OK first if you where HARDCORE, you'd know they are calling this preseason, They want everyone to have a shot at the same gear and in the future BiS gear will be given out to players that reach a certain level.

 

Second, I never understood PVP players that cared about PVP gear. This is PVP not PVE. Carebears care about gear progression WE DO NOT! If you are as good as you think you are you shouldn't need 5% better stats then the less skilled.

 

I say Weapon only, The rest just make it look Different. I AM better then you and I don't NEED gear to prove it.

[Ghostmachine]

OK first if you where HARDCORE, you'd know they are calling this preseason, They want everyone to have a shot at the same gear and in the future BiS gear will be given out to players that reach a certain level.

 

Second, I never understood PVP players that cared about PVP gear. This is PVP not PVE. Carebears care about gear progression WE DO NOT! If you are as good as you think you are you shouldn't need 5% better stats then the less skilled.

 

I say Weapon only, The rest just make it look Different. I AM better then you and I don't NEED gear to prove it.

 

First things first, Carebears? Just so you know there isn't a single aspect of this game that would not be considered Carebear. As I've stated before, this is not a full loot open world pvp game. Playing this game, even on PvP servers is still Carebear.

 

That being said, I agree with this poster, and I'm going to leave everyone with a little history lesson.

 

With the release of path 3.2 Blizzard finally fixed what had become a huge PvP problem. Rampant elitism, and broken mechanics had made low level Battlegrounds (Warzones) impossible to enjoy for the more casual players. Blizzard realized that their player base was fractured and players on both sides were becoming increasingly hostile towards each other.

 

This division and hostility stemmed from the fact that a small handful of people, "twinks", had made these battlegrounds inaccessible to lesser geared players. (A twink is a character that has refrained from leveling beyond a certain level and aquired the best in slot gear for that level).

 

Whether it was because lesser-geared players had no shot against players with Best In Slot items or because new players queued for PvP would be shamed out of those games by team mates less and less of the player base were participating in PvP.

 

This problem was exasperated by the fact that classes in Warcraft were constantly balanced around end game Arena matches. These class balance changes almost always negatively impacted endgame PvE. Which meant raiders had to wait for a fix so they could continue their progression.

 

(As a note, end game raiding in Warcraft has lock outs, and is even more competitive than you could imagine. So when a raider has to wait for a fix, which could sometimes take weeks, they were essentially left with two options: 1. Don't play, or 2. Play a broken class.)

 

Now with the release of 3.2 Blizzard did two things. They added XP gains to Battlegrounds, and they introduced players to Behsten and Slahtz. Those two NPCs I linked to have the ability to turn off XP gains. When a player turns off XP gains they are now queued separately from leveling players.

 

The system isn't perfect but this history lesson isn't over either.

 

What did we learn from all of this? All of the good players, the competitive players who simply enjoyed twinking, and playing against other twinks would go on to participate in premade groups, which are player organized. In all truth to the matter this has always existed but it became much more popular after this patch, and even more so when battlegroups became merged, allowing players across many realms to queue for PvP against each other.

 

You do still sometimes find twinked characters in leveling battlegrounds but those players aren't a majority, and they are known by the PvP community to be nothing more than griefers. As they will simply delete a character once it levels beyond the target level range and start over.

 

TLDR?

 

Real pvp has nothing to do with gear. And PvP in SWTOR will never be fully balanced because this is a game with gear, stats, and rp elements. There will always be slight advantages, but good players can mitigate those disparities with skill.

 

When we, (veteran mmo players, veteran PvP enthusiasts) hear players asking for gear progression in PvP we laugh, because we know who you are, and what you're really asking for.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ghostmachine

[BCBull]

vet here. It's nice to have something to WORK for. Maybe I would log in for more than 1 warzone now a days..

[Nicain]

OK first if you where HARDCORE, you'd know they are calling this preseason, They want everyone to have a shot at the same gear and in the future BiS gear will be given out to players that reach a certain level.

 

Second, I never understood PVP players that cared about PVP gear. This is PVP not PVE. Carebears care about gear progression WE DO NOT! If you are as good as you think you are you shouldn't need 5% better stats then the less skilled.

 

I say Weapon only, The rest just make it look Different. I AM better then you and I don't NEED gear to prove it.

 

You guys make me Lol for real real, not for play play. The point is this, if you are so good you can be me in a naked rusty knife fight, then you should probably be able to beat me even if I have a 5% stat bump.

 

Not all the top end gear in the world can help a bad pvper beat a good pvper, levels being equal. The only thing gear does in this instance is give an edge to evenly skilled player, so the player that puts in that little extra something when clearing dailies, when everything else is equal. This simulates a real strategy because you can only play a toon so optimally, gear allows for the tie breaker.

 

Fact is gear isn't a huge issue, but I noticed its the flavor of the month now to act like you're a super elite pvper who wants to give the under developed toons a leg up so you can have tougher fights.

 

I call bs sir. I assume you like pvping, but have had a bad run with BM bags, and a tough time to get to valor sixty, and a number of other things that were fine, and so you're getting face rolled more often that not, so you and the vocal minority got so many knee jerk changes you crushed the game.

 

You didn't? Ilum on any Tuesday on any normal or above pop server was jammed with anywhere from 60 to 80 players from the imp side and 45-65 pub players, and throughout the week there were a number of times where the pubs would get organized and put us on our heals with numbers, my server is Vulkar Highway btw, use to be a high pop server.

 

Now a days, you get 12 - 18 Imps, tuesdays, on ilum and around 6 - 12 Pubs. Warzone queues are longer, the server is dead. No one is playing, and if these changes you're talking about were actually good, think that would occur? No, it wouldn't.

 

They'll end up consolidating servers after 1.2 which is the death knell of any game. I can't think of one MMO who grew after it consolidated its servers. This is just my opinion based off of the fact the servers are dead.

 

Need another aspect to prove its sloping, check the GTM, things that use to be plentiful are now becoming rare, because there isn't the same player base.

 

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your single player game. I'll enjoy popping in from time to time where you blame the players that quit for being carebears for not wanting to play with you anymore, or how its BWs fault because they put the changes in to late.

 

Its great watching you guys get what you ask for, then continue to rationalize why what you asked for pushed people to other games in droves as the problem being with them, not with you.

[Ghostmachine]

vet here. It's nice to have something to WORK for. Maybe I would log in for more than 1 warzone now a days..

 

You're missing the point, if you only pvp to progress you're doing it wrong. If you need an incentive to participate in Warzones then perhaps PvP isn't fun for you? If you enjoy pvp why do you need an incentive?

 

Progression is for PvE.

[MidichIorian]

I like how people claim that they're "all that" and fine with everyone using the same gear from scratch alt. bolstering. I think it's quite the opposite, the bad players think that it's only a matter of gear when in reality it's their lack of skill that crates thew gap. The new gear is really going to be an eye-opener.

 

That said, I'm still of the opinion that PvP shouldnt be excluded from the rest of the game and stripped of all RPG elements. People can deny the fact that they're playing for gear all they want but at the end of the day there wouldnt be that many that played their 10th Huttball game in a row if it wasnt for commendations and tokens. I know that I won't play the same four battlegrounds over and over again if there isnt some reward and that's coming from someone who's always trying to win, don't care about what other people wear, is sometimes PvP'ing in nothing but undies just to prove that gear dont matter and who never considered the stretch from fresh to BM an obstacle.

[Altruismo]

I like how people claim that they're "all that" and fine with everyone using the same gear from scratch alt. bolstering. I think it's quite the opposite, the bad players think that it's only a matter of gear when in reality it's their lack of skill that crates thew gap. The new gear is really going to be an eye-opener.

 

I think you're half right.

There are definitely people who point at the gear gap as the sole reason they lose who simply lack the skills/experience to win even when the playing field is levelled.

But it's disingenuous to suggest that gear doesn't have a huge impact when comparing "entry level" gear to BM gear pre 1.2.

I am without question more effective and successful PVPing with 18k health and 12% expertise than I am with 12k and 5%.

So is everyone else.

[BCBull]

You're missing the point, if you only pvp to progress you're doing it wrong. If you need an incentive to participate in Warzones then perhaps PvP isn't fun for you? If you enjoy pvp why do you need an incentive?

 

Progression is for PvE.

 

I wander the galaxy for hours to find 1 lowbie lvl 40 (cause all 50's are on the fleet) to camp for 10 minutes. I am pvp. I like to get stuff for killing people.

 

You know like it's a contest with a winner and a loser. Winning feels better when you win something. Call me crazy i guess.

Edited March 26, 2012 by BCBull

[Nicain]

You're missing the point, if you only pvp to progress you're doing it wrong. If you need an incentive to participate in Warzones then perhaps PvP isn't fun for you? If you enjoy pvp why do you need an incentive?

 

Progression is for PvE.

 

Progression is for pvp and pve. If people wanted to play no-progress pvp they'd play counter strike or Call of Duty as those are what those games are there for. MMOs have typically been games with more depth and character variation.

 

PVP and PVE need their own progression, if you don't have PVP with some form of progression, then it's a secondary issue. They could do what a lot of classic games do and just make one set of gear, so the PVE raiders would always own in PVP because they have the best gear classically. Now I don't mind having an even greater advantage over the player base, so the current gear tiers really are fine. If it turns into Call of Duty most people will leave, if even to go to guild wars, which is a multilayer RPG, which isn't a MMO.

 

Even though GW2 is a gear-less pvp system, at least it's designed as a casual game, and thus if people go there they have the proper expectation, people came to this game for the MASSIVE part of the MMO niche.

 

I pvp because I enjoy pvp, gear is secondary but it is important. I get bored with CoD and DCUO just because it's static, most people do.

[Izola]

OK first if you where HARDCORE, you'd know they are calling this preseason, They want everyone to have a shot at the same gear and in the future BiS gear will be given out to players that reach a certain level.

 

Second, I never understood PVP players that cared about PVP gear. This is PVP not PVE. Carebears care about gear progression WE DO NOT! If you are as good as you think you are you shouldn't need 5% better stats then the less skilled.

 

I say Weapon only, The rest just make it look Different. I AM better then you and I don't NEED gear to prove it.

 

I said this....^

 

Fiftysix WOW Rogue....LOOK me up. This isn't coming from a casual. I played with and against the best players WOW had to offer.

 

What a PVPer should look foward to ISN'T gear but the next BG, Arena , WZ. What this really is are Carebears getting carried and wanting the gear as proof.

 

The stat Dif between an elite player and a casual should be NIL. I agree with weapon but that's all you get. If you want to make the gear better looking/Dif I have no problem with that but casuals should have the same chance in a fight as a HARDCORE player.

 

And In my Opinion (A player that has been there done that) Anyone who is actually HARDCORE should have no issue with this. You start giving the top 1% gear that doesn't allow others to compete you creat elitist AND NO ONE WANTS THAT!

[Ghostmachine]

Progression is for pvp and pve. If people wanted to play no-progress pvp they'd play counter strike or Call of Duty as those are what those games are there for. MMOs have typically been games with more depth and character variation.

 

PVP and PVE need their own progression, if you don't have PVP with some form of progression, then it's a secondary issue. They could do what a lot of classic games do and just make one set of gear, so the PVE raiders would always own in PVP because they have the best gear classically. Now I don't mind having an even greater advantage over the player base, so the current gear tiers really are fine. If it turns into Call of Duty most people will leave, if even to go to guild wars, which is a multilayer RPG, which isn't a MMO.

 

Even though GW2 is a gear-less pvp system, at least it's designed as a casual game, and thus if people go there they have the proper expectation, people came to this game for the MASSIVE part of the MMO niche.

 

I pvp because I enjoy pvp, gear is secondary but it is important. I get bored with CoD and DCUO just because it's static, most people do.

 

I can understand if you get bored with PvP from time but you have to understand the historical context here. Gear progression in MMOs have typically done little more than bolster elitism, and create divided communities.

 

A ranking system is a much better way of giving players who need to feel superior a way to do so. And it gives everyone else a sense of progression because we will continue to battle against better and better opponents. Minor differences in stats is one thing. Entire sets of gear aimed at providing PvP a sense of progression is an unnecessary barrier to entry for new players.

 

It also places an unnecessary burden on players who enjoy both PvE and PvP. It would be far better for Bioware to just stick with ranking, and consider normalizing stats in Rated Warzones the same way they do with everything up to level cap.

[Mezira]

 

When we, (veteran mmo players, veteran PvP enthusiasts) hear players asking for gear progression in PvP we laugh, because we know who you are, and what you're really asking for.

 

Beautiful bleeding heart speach man. Although your set of perceptions on this whole pvp community doesn't encompass everyone.

 

I have skills and I still want the gear. What I'm REALLY asking for as you say, is my turn.

 

I had nub gear, I got rolled, then I finally progressed my gear to the point where I started winning, and then winning easily. Even against good players. It's a rite of passage to being on top and when you finally do get premade vs. premade and you have the most epic of battles, it taste so sweet, win or lose. Then there's those times where you should have lost, but because of gear, you are able to survive against all odds, beating 1v3, or 2v5 fights, where you push your gear and consumables and skills, rotations, cooldowns to the ultimate max, come out on top, and just sit there in ventrilo with your buddy marveling for the next 10 minutes on how you pulled that off.

 

I also like being infamous. I like seeing people not engage me just because of my name. Even if they have the advantage.

 

mmo's are progression. If someone wants to come out with arena based mmorpg pvp with no perks I'll try it. Like that Warhammer heros of whatever,..I'll try it and enjoy it. But for now, yeah, let me have my armor bro and keeping queueing until you get me. Let's dance.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Mezira

[RealAeiouy]

Let me clarify my point. PvErs want their cake and eat it too. They want gear with better stats and better visual appeal. But these same people want to restrict PvPers to aesthetic appeal only and limit or remove PvP gear progression. The solution of putting PvErs in muumuus with great stats but no aesthetic appeal and offering PvPrs great aesthetic appeal with limited stats was, for the most part, sarcasm. But in reality, if gear can't be the "carrot on a stick" for PvP then it must not be for PvE either. The two game mechanics have a symbiotic relationship in most mmos and are often impossible to balance. So if gear progression stops in PvP it must also stop in PvE. Skill should be the deciding factor in both PvP and PvE. Let's face it, PvP isn't the only place that gear can serve as a "crutch"

 

I assume you are being flippant and actually understand the fundamental differences between pve and pvp. If not, let me know, and I will fill you in.

[xHurogx]

Well , i remm the devs saying it was a important part of the game , thus i expect more than this mini game it will become on 1.2.

 

Then again if it is all about pve i dont know why so many people whine when i afk

Well , dont really matter anyway.

 

Can you come up with anything that even remotely makes the pvp important in this game? Do you get any other benefit outside of pvp for pvping? Other than a shiny new speeder, *** is the point in pvping except to pvp more.

 

This could have been a game devoid of pvp completely and it would have been much better. The ideas that they have put forth have been pretty crappy so far. Huttball was a decent idea but there are some bugs that need to get fixed. Illum is a TOTAL and COMPLETE failure. They recognize this and are changing it(hopefully to something with objectives that actually take more than one person to capture).

 

People like you are what ruin mmos, they seriously need to start banning people for afking in an 8v8 environment since you are ruining the game experience for other people.

[Ghostmachine]

Beautiful bleeding heart speach man. Although your set of perceptions on this whole pvp community doesn't encompass everyone.

 

I have skills and I still want the gear. What I'm REALLY asking for as you say, is my turn.

 

I had nub gear, I got rolled, then I finally progressed my gear to the point where I started winning, and then winning easily. Even against good players. It's a rite of passage to being on top and when you finally do get premade vs. premade and you have the most epic of battles, it taste so sweet, win or lose. Then there's those times where you should have lost, but because of gear, you are able to survive against all odds, beating 1v3, or 2v5 fights, where you push your gear and consumables and skills, rotations, cooldowns to the ultimate max, come out on top, and just sit there in ventrilo with your buddy marveling for the next 10 minutes on how you pulled that off.

 

I also like being infamous. I like seeing people not engage me just because of my name. Even if they have the advantage.

 

mmo's are progression. If someone wants to come out with arena based mmorpg pvp with no perks I'll try it. Like that Warhammer heros of whatever,..I'll try it and enjoy it. But for now, yeah, let me have my armor bro and keeping queueing until you get me. Let's dance.

Emphasis Added.

 

Thank you for illustrating my original point. You want gear because it waxes your epeen. You are not who I was speaking for. If enough of the player base truly wants progression through PvP, there are better ways for Bioware to provide this than through gear.

 

In general it's well known that people who seek out competition with others are lacking some sense of self worth. The truly skilled, and powerful? They compete with themselves. They strive to better themselves, to do better than they had previously. You can't measure that kind of progress with gear. Which makes your entire argument moot.

 

Gear is acquired with time. Everyone will have access to the same gear, it will just take some people longer than others, and this creates an unnecessary barrier to new players. A ranking system is a far better way to provide this.

 

Further more, even in PvE, gear isn't the actual progression. It's a tool and a means to gate content. Progression in PvE has little to do with gear, and everything to do with the content. You simply have to have a certain level of gear to access higher content. This design works really well for endgame PvE content but is hands down a horrible way to gate PvP.

[QuiJonPed]

OP which would you rather have:

 

1) A PvP match that is determined solely by the skill of the players

2) A PvP match that is determined solely by the gear of the players

3) A PvP match that is determined in part by the gear and in part by the skill of the players

 

 

A PVP match is determined, generally, by whether or you not you're PUG v PUG or PUG v PreMade.