So it's not ok for "hardcores" to have gear progression?

[me_unknown]

For me it does need to be stat gear, that is fun for me. It's why I do datacrons and such. I enjoy progressing my character in that way. I don't enjoy titles or special colors of items.

 

I understand it would hurt PvP if my character was too powerful for a casual to compete. This is why I am hoping for a happy compromise of moderate stat increases.

 

I just don't understand people telling to me to enjoy titles and a specially colored tunic or funny looking mount/pet. I am sorry but I do not enjoy that progression.

 

I enjoyed being a fresh 50 and working for centurian gear to compete and I enjoyed being in champ and working towards BM gear to have an advantage. For me, that is the fun of MMO's.

 

As proof I will tell you that I just finished BM gear and now do not enjoy the game as much, why? Shouldnt I enjoy beating on fresh 50's? No, I enjoy the progression and don't have any more. If they introduced a new gear set that .05% better and cost 1000/1000 I would do it.

 

i can understand you. but this actually is a failor on a totally different matter:

they need to make pvp more fun.

 

endless gear progression on pvp is a pvp killer. there can't be any kind of sportive competition if you do not have a quite easily available gear limit.

[richardya]

I dont pvp for titles, pink hats instead of brown, or efame. I do it for character progression and for fun.

 

I wish the critics understood this. Progressing a character is fun. It's fun starting w 0 centurian gear and working my way up to full battlemaster. They assume we enjoy crushing lesser geared players. That is not the case, if that were true, finishing Battlemaster would be the most fun I could have. It's not, I need a new goal.

[richardya]

i can understand you. but this actually is a failor on a totally different matter:

they need to make pvp more fun.

 

endless gear progression on pvp is a pvp killer. there can't be any kind of sportive competition if you do not have a quite easily available gear limit.

 

What if Champ was 2% better than Centurian and BM was 2% better then champ. Would that ruin PvP? Is a 4% HP difference game breaking?

 

If they introduce War Hero that is 2% better than BM then they should make getting Centurian super duper easy. That way the gear disparity is constant. (ie 4%)

 

There is a middle ground.

Edited March 12, 2012 by richardya

[Annex]

Most people in this thread sound like they want to be playing an FPS not an MMO.

 

• If you want a level playing field, play FPS or DOTA or GW or whatever.
  
• If you want character and gear progression play an MMO.
  

Whining casual players wanting undeserved parity ruin 90% of MMOs these days.

 

In the past I was one of the "hardcore", but these days I don't have the same time to spare. Does this mean all people with more gaming time than me should be neutered and forced to wait??? Does this mean there is no fun in the game for me without the top kit?

 

No - I pvp with my guildies in sub par gear, gradually get to BM level and still roll "kitted" full BM teams regularly.

 

Honestly, an MMO without a gear progression (ie something tangible to aim for) is plain boring and dies fast.

 

And seriously, lol if you think this game is a grind. Try RF, Aion, Soma, LoM, now thats a grind (and incidentally also some of the best open pvp games there have been).

 

Pandering to casual gamers destroys MMOs. Period.

[L-RANDLE]

I can't speak on a PvP server, but I would suspect that a lot more players do both versus one or the other. That is where I am coming from. IDK, in the 10-49 bracket, how do you get gear on a PvP server? But if you have been PvPing the entire time, regardless of the server you are on, then you should be able to get cent gear. If you think BM gear gives such a huge over Cent then ok.... I guess...

 

Speaking on a PvE server:

1. There is no crafting of lvl 51 or higher epics without doing PvE, which forces you to "grind" in most cases.

2. PvP gear is a HUGE nerf compared to the PvE equivelent, stat wise. I might be a "bad" player, but I'm good at math. It needs to be buffed for the PvP only people, especially when cross server comes down.

3. It's also not using PvE gear per say. It's what I would call "stacking" mods, regardless of where they come from.. So even on a PvP server, you can increase your output without sacrificing a set bonus...

 

 

This is why the facerolling is happening.... Argue that non-locked mods/enhancement are causing problems. Or buying epics is not available....

 

Looks like I hit the nail on this one....

[Zombifikation]

Still not my problem. I care about my enjoyment. I enjoy progression through pvp and the casual want to throw it away.

 

The casual need to learn its the hard cores that lead the way and when we leave then the game will become F2P or die.

 

Hahahaha...you realize the people that play 24/7 are NOT the majority right? You are a vocal minority, and you get noticed on your servers b/c you have premades and usually the best gear before everyone else...apparently it's all about getting attention. When you leave the casuals will have more fun b/c they wont have to deal with the elitist hardcores lording an undeserved gear gap over everyone else.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Zombifikation

[Pekish]

PVE = gear progression

 

PVP = player content that doesn't need a static progression because is dynamic

 

it's not word of god it's just GOOD COMON SENSE

 

if u have a system with a K constant (PVE) where the enemy is programmed to follow certain path pre-regulated the only way to give a feeling of progression is to have stronger and stronger enemy

 

if u have a system governed by players in which the pattern is dynamic can change and swing one side or the other YOU DONT NEED GEAR TO CREATE A SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT

 

actually if you put GEAR in PVP you are adding a costant K that actually ruin the dynamism of the system forcing it into a force programmed pattern because a new pvp player will always lose vs a player with "BETTER GEAR" or 99% of the time ruining the dynamicism that could be if they dont have gear and the percentage is more 60-40% or even 70-30%

 

players are so so so ignorant about game mechanic.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Pekish

[Mirthadrond]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

Why can't you have gear that is 'vanity' based rather than stat based. You can still grind for it, but wont ruin your own pvp experience in the process.

[Nerdock]

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

then you're playing the WRONG game for a challenge. I learned that about a month and a half ago.

 

nothing against your post obviously. just this game is the opposite of a challenge in every way.

 

i motioned for challenges for pvp gear per tier of pvp title track, eg. to aquire champ helm, get 250k dmg and 2 deaths in a single warzone, bm chest: 500k healing and 0 deaths, etc etc. even though THAT would be a challenge, it got no reply. why? because people dont want a challenge, no matter how much theyd like to pretend they do. and i do mean the masses, not players like yourself and I.

[Crankyhobo]

Here's what i take away from 1.2. Bio-ware doesn't know what the hell they're doing. I am going to mess around with some alts, see the new content, enjoy the story, but I'm not going to take this game seriously, and soon I'll end up playing something else.

[Redshirtricky]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

I played a little known game called Star Trek Online. A game where you had to pve in order to pvp well (best gear). A game where there's no content whatsoever in the PvP realm. Yet I played and was a part of some of the best pvp groups around. (Hi sad pandas) It's a game where the pve crowd and now pay-2-win crowd would outgear my ship. But it's a game where I, sporting inferior gear, can kill much better geared opponents.

 

You speak as if "Gear = Life" in MMOs; you speak like a PvE'er. For PvP, I welcome the chance at taking out opponents in superior gear through teamwork and tactics.

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Is that really it? I like PvP'ing and my name/fleet tag giving the enemy just a slight pause. That's how I've ranked myself in the past, and will continue to do so. The gear is for show.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Why not fight similarly geared opponents and besting them then?

 

You know, like in lvls 1-49? Everyone's roughly in comparable stats thanks to bolster.

 

I find it odd that "hardcore" pvp'ers want crutches like uber gear to take out their opponents. Titles, vanity items, speeders, etc. are great. Better looking gear I can agree with. IWIN gear just because you had 100+ hours racked up in game while the other guy can only play for 20? Now you can't possibly lose to him, thus making gear the IWIN? No.

 

stuff stuff

[ursuul]

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

ya because we have never seen a game with something like an arena that grants better gear to better players (or more often people who paid to get carried) then seen those players completely stomp in battlegrounds...... MAYBE, if instead of asking for gear progression in pvp (crutch), you should ask for things that don't give you an advantage in what should be a skill based competition.

[Knockerz]

It's simple:

 

PvE = gear progression

 

Old old school pvp = pve gear progression

 

Old school pvp = pvp gear progession

 

New pvp shift towards cod, starcrat, battlefield type of gear progression

 

In other word, there is no real gear progression and all simply log in and pvp with equal gear, minus a few minor difference. That is what pvp should be about and not about gear progression otherwise I rather go back to old old school model where pvp gear = pve gear progression. I would say that type of pvp gear progression is more hardcore than the current pvp gear progression cause you have to do pve in order to get the best pvp gear and it's more painful or fun, depends on person, and takes longer to acquire.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Knockerz

[Easpeak]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

 

Wut?

 

And I laugh at your general "hardcore" direction.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Easpeak

[ursuul]

then you're playing the WRONG game for a challenge. I learned that about a month and a half ago.

 

nothing against your post obviously. just this game is the opposite of a challenge in every way.

 

i motioned for challenges for pvp gear per tier of pvp title track, eg. to aquire champ helm, get 250k dmg and 2 deaths in a single warzone, bm chest: 500k healing and 0 deaths, etc etc. even though THAT would be a challenge, it got no reply. why? because people dont want a challenge, no matter how much theyd like to pretend they do. and i do mean the masses, not players like yourself and I.

 

what does a challenge have to do with a gear gap and an advantage out of the gate in what is supposed to be the person behind the keyboard against the person behind the keyboard. IF you support a gear gap how is this game not for you? because the gap is not big enough and players who start after you have a chance to compete against you?

and i would really like to hear your explanation of how having the same stats as the person your trying to kill is less challanging than being bm against a fresh 50.

[Darth_Sookie]

Funny how we "want to get carried" when we are advocating gear that you can only acquire if you win many skilled based competitions against other high rated competetive players.

If you think you are so good then why don't you also rank up and get access to the same gear? By the time you get full rated gear you will be playing at a rating where everyone has that gear.

 

Oh yeah i think we all know the answer to that one.

 

Spoiler:

 

You will NEVER EVER come even close to getting rated gear. You didn't in WoW and you won't here. You simply want to whine your way to the best stuff.

 

It won't matter what i say though. When everyone has equal gear and you still lose you will simply blame "stacked comps" or OP classes or whatever. QQ the no lifers premade have only tanks and healers QQ BIOWARE why can't you make it so i always win?

[Darth_Sookie]

ya because we have never seen a game with something like an arena that grants better gear to better players (or more often people who paid to get carried) then seen those players completely stomp in battlegrounds...... MAYBE, if instead of asking for gear progression in pvp (crutch), you should ask for things that don't give you an advantage in what should be a skill based competition.

 

We're asking for a bump ala champ>BM a 5% or so. Something to work towards. You should want that too so that you have something to blame.

 

My premade played a couple of Hutball games in level 20 PvP gear for laughs and we still won. Hillarious how bad people are at this game. In the end it wont matter AT ALL. The bads will still get obliterated.

[Pekish]

can you talk singular and stop using we as if u represent someone it's pretty annoying

[Bluetickone]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

there are "hardcore" players left in this game?

[Vaipyr]

can you talk singular and stop using we as if u represent someone it's pretty annoying

 

It's him, and his massive ego. It accounts for multiple people. Like a mental illness. It's a condition that seems to run rampant through a segment of the community that call themselves the "hardcores". Psychological help is advisable but finding someone strong enough to carry their massive girth out of their mother's basement has proven difficult. Even more so by the slippery nature of the subjects from cheeto dust coating everything around them.

[Darth_Sookie]

It's him, and his massive ego. It accounts for multiple people. Like a mental illness. It's a condition that seems to run rampant through a segment of the community that call themselves the "hardcores". Psychological help is advisable but finding someone strong enough to carry their massive girth out of their mother's basement has proven difficult. Even more so by the slippery nature of the subjects from cheeto dust coating everything around them.

 

I think you are projecting your own insecurities. Time to spot being a spoiled little brat and take responsibility for your own success. Nobody will give you anything kid.

[Jrovak]

When the competetive elements of this game wants gear progression and character advancement it's because "we want to be carried by gear".

Whereas causals feel they should have a clear progression path all the way up to the best gear for little to no effort.

 

 

Why can't us hardcore players have something to work for that actually takes effort and teamplay to get? I want to feel i earned the gear, not getting it handed to me by merely participating in PvP.

 

Sure competition is it's own reward, which btw is why i'm still racking up lots of games daily even though there is no tangible reward in it for me except more titles. But just as the causals want gear progressions, so do we. Even if the gap is a small one like champ to bm gear, it's still nice to have stuff to look forward too.

 

Ranked players will spend most of their time in ranked warzones so it's not like we will spend all out time ganking you in non ranked.

 

you are wasting your breath reasoning with the gimme moar crew

just troll them it'all they deserve

Edited March 24, 2012 by Jrovak

[ADMCD]

Hardcore players will probably beat casual players regardless of gear and skill level. They simply get more practice and practice eventually translates into higher skill.

 

The problem is, casual players take being trounced all the time by hardcore players as a problem with either (a) the game developers or (b) the hardcore players (usually this turns into insults about the hardcore players lacking lives).

 

The complaints of the casual players about being trounced all the time results in them being handed gear hand over foot because gear is the only way the game developers can try to even the odds. However, that approach doesn't work because even though gear does help a bit, at the end of the day, skill will eventually top the leaderboard (and as I pointed out practice turns into skill). And so the casuals continue to be trounced and continue to complain.

 

The real problem is that casual players need to remember that they are casual players and they're going to have to wait longer real life time to get the gear the hardcore players are going to get in a shorter period of real life time. Having less gear than another player does not mean you are a bad player, it simply means you've not played the game as much and haven't had the opprotunity to recieve said gear.

 

I think that this game, and other MMOs, need to start slowing down progression, whether it be gear (both PvE and PvP), levels, and other sorts of reward systems, because people will plow through them regardless of casualness or hardcoreness, and then be bored. They're simply not going to be able to keep up with the frantic pace people want to get cool stuff. Really, they ought to push out more team work, community, and political options to keep games interesting.

[Tic-]

Hardcore players will probably beat casual players regardless of gear and skill level. They simply get more practice and practice eventually translates into higher skill.

 

The problem is, casual players take being trounced all the time by hardcore players as a problem with either (a) the game developers or (b) the hardcore players (usually this turns into insults about the hardcore players lacking lives).

 

The complaints of the casual players about being trounced all the time results in them being handed gear hand over foot because gear is the only way the game developers can try to even the odds. However, that approach doesn't work because even though gear does help a bit, at the end of the day, skill will eventually top the leaderboard (and as I pointed out practice turns into skill). And so the casuals continue to be trounced and continue to complain.

 

The real problem is that casual players need to remember that they are casual players and they're going to have to wait longer real life time to get the gear the hardcore players are going to get in a shorter period of real life time. Having less gear than another player does not mean you are a bad player, it simply means you've not played the game as much and haven't had the opprotunity to recieve said gear.

 

I think that this game, and other MMOs, need to start slowing down progression, whether it be gear (both PvE and PvP), levels, and other sorts of reward systems, because people will plow through them regardless of casualness or hardcoreness, and then be bored. They're simply not going to be able to keep up with the frantic pace people want to get cool stuff. Really, they ought to push out more team work, community, and political options to keep games interesting.

 

 

I don't agree with most of your post, but this i couldn't agree more...

 

Sadly, these days, its all about gear and nothing more.

 

People used to fight (pvp) for their faction, they used to fight to defend their player towns, they used to fight for thier guilds honor, or to just flat out, see who was better..

 

Nowadays "we" just fight to get our next BiS, and whine to the high heavens if "we" don't get our "progression... Just like PvErs used too...

 

funny that.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Tic-

[ADMCD]

I don't agree with most of your post, but this i couldn't agree more...

 

Sadly, these days, its all about gear and nothing more.

 

People used to fight (pvp) for their faction, they used to fight to defend their player towns, they used to fight for thier guilds honor, or to just flat out, see who was better..

 

Nowadays "we" just fight to get our next BiS, and whine to the high heavens if "we" don't get our "progression... Just like PvErs used too...

 

funny that.

 

I've been playing role playing games online since the early 1990s and I don't remember these times you are talking about. As far as I remember, it was always about showing off because you were the best and had the best gear. It did, however, have an element of teamwork involved, which is why I think you remember things with rose coloured glasses. It was the teamwork that made older games different, not the lack of elitism. Elitism was still there and I don't believe elitism is a bad thing to have.

Edited March 24, 2012 by ADMCD