2/22/2012 -> Can we get an update on where the Combat Log is?

[Calimwulf]

Do you folks realize that there is a difference between an in game DPS meter and combat logs? I personally don't want to see 'real time' DPS meters in game, but an out of game TPS/HPS/DPS tool really would benefit everyone that plays because it is the only way to tell if there are math bugs when it comes to how the devs calculate stuff. Edited February 23, 2012 by Calimwulf

[Truga]

That seems to follow the same logic as "hammers cause murders" ... sure people can give examples of that happening, but that doesn't really provide much of an argument against hammers...

 

I have to agree with this. Just like "we need logs for reason <x>" (and people play fine without) is IMO a worthless argument, so is "logs cause communities to go into the toilet".

 

I'm an elitist pig. I will be rude to pugs I lead in chat (though most never notice it, I like being subtle so they don't ragequit on me) when they do stupid things, don't do DPS (I know how fast or slow a content should go by, if it's too slow, I start asking questions). There's no amount of tools you can add or remove to change that.

[Chewpaco]

All the information you need to succeed is already in the game. Enemy cast bars. Graphic clues as to incoming AoE effects. Audio clues as to special abilities.

 

You DO NOT NEED a written road map - to succeed. Pay attention during fights.

 

The only thing that matters - is Pass/Fail. If you are failing, try a different strategy.

 

So far, I see VERY LITTLE social PvE problems in a combat enviroment. There is no E-Peening being done in FP's about who is pulling what weight.

 

It is Pass/Fail - that is where the emphasis is for a group. That is where it should be.

 

Combat logs lead to Combat Parsers. Combat Parsers lead to posted DPS charts in group chat.

 

Posted DPS parses in group chat lead to E-Peening.

 

No thank you. I know just where to go if I want to deal with kiddies in their mom's basement talking smack on the internet. Regardless of what anyone says - that is not an enjoyable enviroment. Not everyone will act that way. But enough will, that will have me interacting with this type of behavior on a DAILY basis.

 

As of right now? I don't have to endure this social plague. Combat Logs? The have just turned me into a mediator and a peacemaker. No thanks. Don't want to babysit - or hear all the whining, when I am playing a game for fun on Pass/Fail.

[BlownSi]

Other than proving that the classes need some balance, which can already be done by BW through their metrics, I see no need or benefit of a combat log. As someone has already said, until the difficulty gets to the point that a 4-5 dps difference is the determining factor in a boss going down or a wipe, what is the point?

 

Right now, it is easy to tell what is lacking or what needs to be fixed, or how well you are doing. No need for number crunching yet. Let BW fix the real problems in the game first, then worry about the extra "hand-holding" stuff.

Edited February 23, 2012 by BlownSi

[Menisong]

Wel all have preferences, implementing them will come at the expense of those that stand on the other side of the preference. Same for me, same for you.

 

You said, you are able to enjoy the game on your terms with a combat log. All I hear now is I dont want other to have it. You had the nerve to call others closed minded...lol. Sounds like you are just arguing to be right now.

 

Makes no sense that you admit you can play and enjoy the game on your terms with out a combat log, yet want to keep it out....just because.

[Vydor_HC]

Do you folks realize that there is a difference between an in game DPS meter and combat logs? I personally don't want to see 'real time' DPS meters in game, but an out of game TPS/HPS/DPS tool really would benefit everyone that plays because it is the only way to tell if there are math bugs when it comes to how the devs calculate stuff.

 

-nods-

 

Combat log would be great for a test server, lots of diagnostic tools could be implemented there to let players test various theories.

[Arnathis]

It's amazing how many ignorant posters there are.

 

Firstly, If they add logs it will in time become mandatory for everyone to use them. As my earlier posts detailed, with logs they can make the game harder, much harder than you could without them. It will become impossible for a raid group to kill nightmare bosses without them.

 

So first point is, they are not optional if you want to raid.

 

And secondly, L2P. If your tank losses focus to a DPS then tell he tank to pull harde or the dps to calm down. All the things you want to learn you can do by playing the freaking game.

 

A lot of posters saying they need it for X and for y, are pure and simple lazy. They want easy street learning. I don't want to learn, I want some to tell me what I have to do. The fun in beating a boss is learning how they work, the triggers, the timers and the agro levels.

 

You want a meter to tell you all this? Are you really that bad a player? I love how you are the ones accusing of us in the No camp of being bad players and the fact is you are such a bad player you can't even work out how to control agro, a rule 101 of groups and raiding. L2P!

 

You're calling people ignorant and then following up with this garbage?

 

going to pick your post apart statement by statement:

 

Your comment: "If they add logs it will in time become mandatory to use them"

Why you're wrong : Do you see the amount of people on here that are against their use? Seems to me there will be plenty of people happy to continue not using them, find each other and play together.

Your comment: players using combat logs need to "L2P"

 

Why you're wrong: A player that knows how to use and interpret information from a combat log will inevitably become a better player than the one who doesn't. People COULD continue to wipe to a boss and guess as to why but why would you want to? This isn't the 80's. A smart and efficient player will make use of a combat log to learn from their mistakes faster.

 

Your comment: "All the things you want to learn you can do by playing the freaking game"

Why you're wrong: Really? Without a combat log you can tell which dps was late switching to a group of adds during a given pull? You can tell if someones not on the right target? You can tell if someones instant death was from pulling aggro or accidentally getting cleaved? When you don't beat an enrage timer or are unable to heal through a heavy damage phase you can tell who was slacking? Amazing.

Your comment: "A lot of posters saying they need it for X and for y, are pure and simple lazy. They want easy street learning. I don't want to learn, I want some to tell me what I have to do. The fun in beating a boss is learning how they work, the triggers, the timers and the agro levels."

 

Why you're wrong: This statement is beyond my comprehension. The people asking for meters so that they can better themselves are the lazy ones? The people who wanna be able to break down what happened throughout a boss fight are the lazy ones? The people who aren't satisfied with guessing all the time are the lazy ones? The lazy ones aren't the people who could care less about whats actually happening beneath the surface of a fight? The lazy ones aren't the people who don't care enough to do any of the things I listed above and subsequently waste other peoples time? Amazing.

 

Your comment: "You want a meter to tell you all this? Are you really that bad a player? I love how you are the ones accusing of us in the No camp of being bad players and the fact is you are such a bad player you can't even work out how to control agro"

Why you're wrong: You want people to just guess when they're close to pulling off of a tank? You want raid leaders to guess as to whose fault it was the tanks or the dps? How can you justify having a mechanic as important as threat without some way to monitor it? Then add in the fact that there are such things as enrage timers and tell me you shouldn't have some way of telling how close you are to pulling off a tank. There's a conflict there. You're telling people they need to push their dps in order to kill a boss but in the same breath giving them a mechanic like threat to deal with which provides the potential for disaster if they push too hard and you give them no way to effectively control themselves other than guessing. Sounds like a solid setup.

 

Finally, the people against combat logs need to relax. Nobody is forcing you to use them. Many of us will, but as evidenced by the many "No" posters on this thread and other threads, many will prefer not to. A little work on your part to find those people and play with them will solve your problems. Also, the people who say they're used to belittle people need to realize that the ones doing the belittling will find a way to call others out even without combat logs. I have used combat logs in other games, I know how to use them to find even the smallest mistake someone makes but I've never belittled anyone or purposely embarrassed anyone because their damage or healing was low. The most I've ever done is whisper them asking them to step it up a notch so we could get by a certain boss and the funny thing is, they usually do meaning they were slacking prior to that. I've also offered to help people with their rotations if I knew their class reasonably well. Know what I used to determine what they were doing wrong? A combat log/damage meter. By seeing where their damage was coming from along with a bunch of other info you can access from a log/meter I'm able to see if they're priorities are off and they're using "ability A" more often than they're using "ability B."

 

Don't try to stereotype all combat log users as elitests. All elitests use combat logs but not all people that use combat logs are elitests.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Arnathis

[Vydor_HC]

You said, you are able to enjoy the game on your terms with a combat log. All I hear now is I dont want other to have it. You had the nerve to call others closed minded...lol. Sounds like you are just arguing to be right now.

 

Makes no sense that you admit you can play and enjoy the game on your terms with out a combat log, yet want to keep it out....just because.

 

Back into the circle we go, this is tiresome. If you have a different line of arguement you want to present go we can continue. But we've discussed this same exact line over and over. It's grown stale. I've enjoyed our discussion though, it was cordial and polite, thanks for having it.

[Forsbacka]

 

No thank you. I know just where to go if I want to deal with kiddies in their mom's basement talking smack on the internet. Regardless of what anyone says - that is not an enjoyable enviroment. Not everyone will act that way. But enough will, that will have me interacting with this type of behavior on a DAILY basis.

 

 

 

 

Actually according to some studies, raiders are above 30+ years old as an average and usually are better educated and have better jobs than average population so your "Kids yelling in basement" doesnt suit to the playerbase that actually has use for these tools and who are actually asking for it. Combat logs and meters in a form or another has been basic feature in almost ever MMORPG up to date.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Forsbacka

[xNethrilx]

All the information you need to succeed is already in the game. Enemy cast bars. Graphic clues as to incoming AoE effects. Audio clues as to special abilities.

 

You DO NOT NEED a written road map - to succeed. Pay attention during fights.

 

The only thing that matters - is Pass/Fail. If you are failing, try a different strategy.

 

So far, I see VERY LITTLE social PvE problems in a combat enviroment. There is no E-Peening being done in FP's about who is pulling what weight.

 

It is Pass/Fail - that is where the emphasis is for a group. That is where it should be.

 

Combat logs lead to Combat Parsers. Combat Parsers lead to posted DPS charts in group chat.

 

Posted DPS parses in group chat lead to E-Peening.

 

No thank you. I know just where to go if I want to deal with kiddies in their mom's basement talking smack on the internet. Regardless of what anyone says - that is not an enjoyable enviroment. Not everyone will act that way. But enough will, that will have me interacting with this type of behavior on a DAILY basis.

 

As of right now? I don't have to endure this social plague. Combat Logs? The have just turned me into a mediator and a peacemaker. No thanks. Don't want to babysit - or hear all the whining, when I am playing a game for fun on Pass/Fail.

 

 

 

You are in fact incorrect. Say I play a Guardian:

 

I have been denied joining groups, even though I am DPS spec'd, because they claim Guardian DPS is bad. This is arbitrary with 0 evidence what-so-ever, but I have NO way to overcome this without some sort of DPS meter / log.

 

Would you suggest I just play a different character even tho I like mine?

Or would you suggest I tank since that's what people believe I should be?

I have yet to find like minded people who agree guardian DPS is viable.

 

Without combat logs, I am forced into a single mold.

 

This is the exact scenario a friend of mine is in. Fortunately I lead my guild, so I don't have to overcome these issues.

 

 

 

What is your solution those who hate combat logs?

 

BTW, read my previous posts for arguments FOR them that no one has YET to overcome.

[Stupiddrummer]

You're calling people ignorant and then following up with this garbage?

 

going to pick your post apart statement by statement:

 

Your comment: "If they add logs it will in time become mandatory to use them"

Why you're wrong : Do you see the amount of people on here that are against their use? Seems to me there will be plenty of people happy to continue not using them, find each other and play together.

Your comment: players using combat logs need to "L2P"

 

Why you're wrong: A player that knows how to use and interpret information from a combat log will inevitably become a better player than the one who doesn't. People COULD continue to wipe to a boss and guess as to why but why would you want to? This isn't the 80's. A smart and efficient player will make use of a combat log to learn from their mistakes faster.

 

Your comment: "All the things you want to learn you can do by playing the freaking game"

Why you're wrong: Really? Without a combat log you can tell which dps was late switching to a group of adds during a given pull? You can tell if someones not on the right target? You can tell if someones instant death was from pulling aggro or accidentally getting cleaved? When you don't beat an enrage timer or are unable to heal through a heavy damage phase you can tell who was slacking? Amazing.

Your comment: "A lot of posters saying they need it for X and for y, are pure and simple lazy. They want easy street learning. I don't want to learn, I want some to tell me what I have to do. The fun in beating a boss is learning how they work, the triggers, the timers and the agro levels."

 

why you're wrong: This statement is beyond my comprehension. The people asking for meters so that they can better themselves are the lazy ones? The people who wanna be able to break down what happened throughout a boss fight are the lazy ones? The people who aren't satisfied with guessing all the time are the lazy ones? The lazy ones aren't the people who could care less about whats actually happening beneath the surface of a fight? The lazy ones aren't the people who don't care enough to do any of the things I listed above and subsequently waste other peoples time? Amazing.

 

Your comment: "You want a meter to tell you all this? Are you really that bad a player? I love how you are the ones accusing of us in the No camp of being bad players and the fact is you are such a bad player you can't even work out how to control agro"

Why you're wrong: You want people to just guess when they're close to pulling off of a tank? You want raid leaders to guess as to whose fault it was the tanks or the dps? How can you justify having a mechanic as important as threat without some way to monitor it? Then add in the fact that there are such things as enrage timers and tell me you shouldn't have some way of telling how close you are to pulling off a tank. There's a conflict there. You're telling people they need to push their dps in order to kill a boss but in the same breath giving them a mechanic like threat to deal with which provides the potential for disaster if they push too hard and you give them no way to effectively control themselves other than guessing. Sounds like a solid setup.

 

Finally, the people against combat logs need to relax. Nobody is forcing you to use them. Many of us will, but as evidenced by the many "No" posters on this thread and other threads, many will prefer not to. A little work on your part to find those people and play with them will solve your problems. Also, the people who say they're used to belittle people need to realize that the ones doing the belittling will find a way to call others out even without combat logs. I have used combat logs in other games, I know how to use them to find even the smallest mistake someone makes but I've never belittled anyone or purposely embarrassed anyone because their damage or healing was low. The most I've ever done is whisper them asking them to step it up a notch so we could get by a certain boss and the funny thing is, they usually do meaning they were slacking prior to that. I've also offered to help people with their rotations if I knew their class reasonably well. Know what I used to determine what they were doing wrong? A combat log/damage meter. By seeing where their damage was coming from along with a bunch of other info you can access from a log/meter I'm able to see if they're priorities are off and they're using "ability A" more often than they're using "ability B."

 

Don't try to stereotype all combat log users as elitests. All elitests use combat logs but not all people that use combat logs are elitests.

 

 

thank you

[Menisong]

Back into the circle we go, this is tiresome. If you have a different line of arguement you want to present go we can continue. But we've discussed this same exact line over and over. It's grown stale. I've enjoyed our discussion though, it was cordial and polite, thanks for having it.

 

Nope I have no other line of argument.

 

Find like minded players and most of these types of issues dissappear. I am glad you can enjoy the game on your terms with a combat log, as you control wther you use it or not. If more people would play(as you do) with like minded players they would enjoy the game so so mcuh more.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Menisong

[Forsbacka]

You're calling people ignorant and then following up with this garbage?

 

going to pick your post apart statement by statement:

 

Your comment: "If they add logs it will in time become mandatory to use them"

Why you're wrong : Do you see the amount of people on here that are against their use? Seems to me there will be plenty of people happy to continue not using them, find each other and play together.

Your comment: players using combat logs need to "L2P"

 

Why you're wrong: A player that knows how to use and interpret information from a combat log will inevitably become a better player than the one who doesn't. People COULD continue to wipe to a boss and guess as to why but why would you want to? This isn't the 80's. A smart and efficient player will make use of a combat log to learn from their mistakes faster.

 

Your comment: "All the things you want to learn you can do by playing the freaking game"

Why you're wrong: Really? Without a combat log you can tell which dps was late switching to a group of adds during a given pull? You can tell if someones not on the right target? You can tell if someones instant death was from pulling aggro or accidentally getting cleaved? When you don't beat an enrage timer or are unable to heal through a heavy damage phase you can tell who was slacking? Amazing.

Your comment: "A lot of posters saying they need it for X and for y, are pure and simple lazy. They want easy street learning. I don't want to learn, I want some to tell me what I have to do. The fun in beating a boss is learning how they work, the triggers, the timers and the agro levels."

 

why you're wrong: This statement is beyond my comprehension. The people asking for meters so that they can better themselves are the lazy ones? The people who wanna be able to break down what happened throughout a boss fight are the lazy ones? The people who aren't satisfied with guessing all the time are the lazy ones? The lazy ones aren't the people who could care less about whats actually happening beneath the surface of a fight? The lazy ones aren't the people who don't care enough to do any of the things I listed above and subsequently waste other peoples time? Amazing.

 

Your comment: "You want a meter to tell you all this? Are you really that bad a player? I love how you are the ones accusing of us in the No camp of being bad players and the fact is you are such a bad player you can't even work out how to control agro"

Why you're wrong: You want people to just guess when they're close to pulling off of a tank? You want raid leaders to guess as to whose fault it was the tanks or the dps? How can you justify having a mechanic as important as threat without some way to monitor it? Then add in the fact that there are such things as enrage timers and tell me you shouldn't have some way of telling how close you are to pulling off a tank. There's a conflict there. You're telling people they need to push their dps in order to kill a boss but in the same breath giving them a mechanic like threat to deal with which provides the potential for disaster if they push too hard and you give them no way to effectively control themselves other than guessing. Sounds like a solid setup.

 

Finally, the people against combat logs need to relax. Nobody is forcing you to use them. Many of us will, but as evidenced by the many "No" posters on this thread and other threads, many will prefer not to. A little work on your part to find those people and play with them will solve your problems. Also, the people who say they're used to belittle people need to realize that the ones doing the belittling will find a way to call others out even without combat logs. I have used combat logs in other games, I know how to use them to find even the smallest mistake someone makes but I've never belittled anyone or purposely embarrassed anyone because their damage or healing was low. The most I've ever done is whisper them asking them to step it up a notch so we could get by a certain boss and the funny thing is, they usually do meaning they were slacking prior to that. I've also offered to help people with their rotations if I knew their class reasonably well. Know what I used to determine what they were doing wrong? A combat log/damage meter. By seeing where their damage was coming from along with a bunch of other info you can access from a log/meter I'm able to see if they're priorities are off and they're using "ability A" more often than they're using "ability B."

 

Don't try to stereotype all combat log users as elitests. All elitests use combat logs but not all people that use combat logs are elitests.

 

 

You just killed the thread, good job sir.

[Fenshire]

There isn't a combat log? I didn't notice!

[Chewpaco]

Actually according to some studies, raiders are above 30+ years old as an average and usually are better educated and have better jobs than average population so your Kids yelling in basement doesnt suit to the playerbase that actually has use for these tools and who are actually asking for me. Combat logs and meters in a form or another has been basic feature in almost ever MMORPG up to date.

 

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

 

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

 

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

 

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

[Vydor_HC]

Nope I have no other line of argument.

 

Find like minded players and most of these types of issues dissappear. I am glad you can enjoy the game on your terms with a combat log, as you control wther you use it or not. If more people would play(as you do) with like minded players they would enjoy the game so so mcuh more.

 

Yup, sometimes I do like to venture outside the group and find new experience. If that were the topic being discussed we'd be in agreement.

 

/salute

[Forsbacka]

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

 

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

 

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

 

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

 

Thats a player made problem. I use knife to cut meat and bread, some people hit other people with it, no one shouldnt have knives. And for your information, we used dmg meters since molten core and never really saw any problems with it socially when i played with likeminded people.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Forsbacka

[xNethrilx]

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

 

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

 

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

 

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

 

Anonymity does that, not damage meters. You are wrong, sorry. The problems didn't exist in EQ, DAOC, Vanguard, etc, etc, etc or even WOW until the Cross Server LFG Utility that allowed people to not give a damn about their reputation or the people around them.

[Menisong]

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

 

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

 

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

 

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

 

You can apply this to ANY game, so should we take tools away from all other games as well?

[Vydor_HC]

Regardless of what you say about their value to Min/Maxing.

 

1 simple truth you cannot debate: They lead to E-Peening. They take an enviroment like an Operation that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to have 1 objective : PASS / FAIL.

 

They CHANGE that enviroment from pass/fail to Player vs Player in a PvE encounter.

 

When this happens, it has a HUGE IMPACT on soclial enjoyment in a game. Period.

 

-nods-

 

While it can be true in just about any environment, additional tool can surely enhance it.

[Menisong]

-nods-

 

While it can be true in just about any environment, additional tool can surely enhance it.

 

Its only really enhanced when you start mixing different levels of play and playstyles. Combat logs will have virtually no negative effect on social aspect of the hardcore min/max crowd that would be found in nightmare modes.

 

The huge impact(socially) comes from mixed playstyles and abilities trying to play together, and the friction that ensues due to knowledge, ability, gaps.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Menisong

[ferroz]

I am very sorry for having a life outside this forum, I will correct that immediately.

You've posted a dozen times since the first time I asked about that.

 

Ragnarok Online

Guild Wars

EVE Online (when I played it anyway, the combat log it had then was useless)

Lineage series -> L2 had a combat log, but it was on the level of EVE one, i.e. useless.

DDO -> see above again. This one is only useful if you die and had no idea what hit you.

 

These are off the top of my head. I've also played several smaller ones, but I don't remember any names as it was years ago now, nor do I remember if they had combat logs or not

EQ, EQ2, DAoC, AoC, WoW, Rift, Aion off the top of my head

 

so you mentioned 3 that don't have a combat log (supposedly) and 3 that do (eve, l2 and ddo). Vs 7 that I named off the top of my head.

 

How is that "most MMO's" ?

 

lets take a few minutes and go google a few and check some of the ones I don't know off the top of my head...

looks like

• UO had a combat log.
  
• anarchy online looks like it had a combat log (I see requests to add things like "player deaths to it)
  
• swg had a combat log
  
• Found a link to a combat log parser for STO
  
• Found a link to a vanguard damage/heal/incoming damage parser
  
• Found some discussion about cstats, a lotro damage parser.
  

 

So, 3 vs a lot. Doesn't look like most to me.

Edited February 23, 2012 by ferroz

[Truga]

Ididnt say it was a small game, it was huge in Asia, niche game here. Andi t was very different with western MMOS. You just said earlier that most MMOs didnt have combat logs and that only Rift and WoW pretty much uses em was incorrect. Most major decent sized MMORPG games had/has logs and/or meters by default or access to em via mods.

 

And it's true. Most MMOs don't have the kind of combat logs WoW and Rift offer. Timestamped, exportable, all-encompasing compass logs? The only games I've seen do it are Rift and WoW (and apparently now also EVE). I think LOTRO has something similar too, but one can easily argue that LOTRO is just as much a wow clone as SWTOR is (which is why it baffles me why there's no combat logs here).

 

I've argued for logs for a long time now too, as long as they aren't timestamped, and are personal. That way, you can't go into an encounter and via timestamps figure out the flow of the entire encounter, for every single person (and not even for yourself, pay attention!) and you also can't spy on people's numbers. Now say what you want about this, but I live in a free country where privacy is still a basic human right. If they want to tell me their numbers, they will. If they don't they won't, it's their choice. If they want to lie about it, I'll figure it out eventually and they'll get blacklisted. If they don't want to tell me and I find out they suck, I'll give out some pointers anyway. If they lash back at me, they get blacklisted, if they learn they often get friended. If we fail anyway, I won't hold a grudge. Some people just aren't good at these games.

 

And @Arnathis: As for logs being mandatory, they will be mandatory in pugs (i.e. for most players) because leading pugs with a proper log would be so much easier, and good pug leaders will want them (and bad pug leaders will keep failing, with or without). And, of course, for any kind of "competitive pve", because they save a lot of time when theorycrafting. Not that competitive players will mind, though. Time savers are always good for them.

 

I personally couldn't care less about that, I'm playing this game for the PVE, to have some casual fun in it. Combat log might save me some time when pugging, but that's about it. Playing against other people is where competitiveness is at (AI in MMOs is dumb, oh so dumb), and SWTOR PVP is a big bag of fail currently. Hopefully we get an awesome space expansion with some conquerable planets so we can have huge space and planetside battles, eventually. Doesn't seem likely at this point though :F

[JediElf]

Its only really enhanced when you start mixing different levels of play and playstyles. Combat logs will have virtually no negative effect on social aspect of the hardcore min/max crowd that would be found in nightmare modes.

 

The huge impact(socially) comes from mixed playstyles and abilities trying to play together, and the friction that ensues due to knowledge, ability, gaps.

 

That's actually quite true.

 

Professional raiders and gamers don't spam Recount logs, and throw hissy fits over .02 less DPS. They are already on top of the game, and use the meters and logs as tools for improvement.

 

It's the 'wannabees' that cause the most social strife, when meters are introduced.

 

(I'll just be content to find a circle of folks who don't play the game in a super-stressed sate of mind, who don't use tools as a crutch, and who appreciate the art and beauty of this game. Let the meters come...it won't matter when I play with my friends. ^_^)

Edited February 23, 2012 by JediElf

[Chewpaco]

You can apply this to ANY game, so should we take tools away from all other games as well?

 

This is exactly my point. The answer to your question in short - NO.

 

Leave the tools like that in other games. Like I stated - If I want to play in that kind of enviroment, I know just where to find it. I have plenty of commercial options that have healty populations, that foster Player vs Player in PvE encounters.

 

I enjoy logging on at the moment and not have to read the constant rhetoric about who is pulling what weight and who is not. It is a peaceful, enjoyable, challenging experience thus far.

 

As a former raid leader myself, I absolutley understand the value of combat logs. There is no doubt that the information gleened from them can be extremely helpful for overall performance. Both as a group and as an individual.

 

But, those tools come with a cost. The price is social degredation.

 

Definition of DEGRADATION

1: the act or process of degrading

2a : decline to a low, destitute, or demoralized state