I'm curious why Carolina Parakeet is 21/2/18 instead of 23/0/18..

[Athilias]

I understand you're trying to maximize damage from Rail shot, but the 40% extra penetration from it is worse then the 30% extra crit to RP. RP comes up more often (even with the FB procs to RS), and can even proc RS. With the Combat Tech champ set it gives another 15% crit chance to RP (30% total, with the talent), making it's base around 50% with a measly 20% crit chance. Rail Shot, however, gets no crit damage bonus, and can be dodge/shielded if it doesn't crit, all the while, coming up slightly less often.

 

So did someone do some actual testing and it turned out the 40% penetration was actually worth it? I just don't see how it's going to be when on anything with medium or below, you're going to cut at most 12% mitigation, instead of increasing a skill that can crit more often, but just slightly less hard.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Athilias

[Umpire]

the entire spec is built around shooting railshots. Even with the crit multiplier boost, RP does less damage on a whole because it is also mitigated by armor. Cutting through armor to the point of 90% armor pen for rail shot winds up doing more damage than boosting the crit bonus of rocket punch that will be mitigated anyway.

[Umpire]

that said, almost everything is pure speculation and I'll be interested in seeing numbers after a combat log comes out.

[Athilias]

the entire spec is built around shooting railshots. Even with the crit multiplier boost, RP does less damage on a whole because it is also mitigated by armor. Cutting through armor to the point of 90% armor pen for rail shot winds up doing more damage than boosting the crit bonus of rocket punch that will be mitigated anyway.

 

But you don't get to 90% with the Parakeet, you only get to 70%, and with the build I posted you still have 30% armor penetration. My point was that RP comes up more often, can crit more often, and gets more bonus to crit. I ran the 21/2/18 and my Max crit I saw with Railshot was 3k (averaged out at about 2.8k) and RP was about 2.1k average with it. Now my RP hits for 2.6k average, and I've seen RS still hit for 2.8k though I'd say it averages out at about 2.5k. My RP comes up more often then RS however, so I get more hits this way, and RP crits a heck of a lot more often. The only thing I miss was a stronger ranged crit.

 

Anyway, my real point was that everyone seems so certain that 21/2/18 is more efficient, so I was curious if someone had done a good amount of testing on it.

[The_Beastwood]

CP is built around shooting Railshots, Punching and a bit of survival. It is inferior to Pyrotech in dedication Railshot, and I still don't like it because you also miss on Ring of Fire and Firebug which give a noticable bonus to RS.

[Athilias]

CP is built around shooting Railshots, Punching and a bit of survival. It is inferior to Pyrotech in dedication Railshot, and I still don't like it because you also miss on Ring of Fire and Firebug which give a noticable bonus to RS.

 

This is primarily what I'm getting at, why is it have to be primarily for getting more damage out RS? Why can't the 18 points in the Pyro tree to give good bonus damage outside of RP? With 23 points in the Tanking tree, RP becomes a very good attack, that even in PvP can refresh here and there (I've done 3 RPs in a row fighting certain classes) that has a second that's bolstered (RS) that also helps to get rid of heat, along with your shield venting? I've never liked the idea of a spec focusing most of it's damage with 1 ability as is, but the Parakeet has the possibility of having 2 good damaging attacks, with just moving 2 points, instead of having 1 good attack and 1 mediocre one.

[DarthNofu]

I run a CP. I am interested in where you put those two extras... can you actually name it please or link your build?

[tbsly]

im almost certain the op is wrong about rocket punch coming up more than railshot. the whole point of going 18 into pyro is to make your rocket punch and flame burst proc railshot.

 

your rocket punch has a 45% chance of refreshing railshot. flame burst has a 30% chance.

 

as a typical cp spec you will be theoretically railshoting more than rocket punching. with that said, railshot becomes your main attack. giving railshot an addition armor pen of 40% is > than giving your rocket punch 30% extra crit damage because you will be railshoting more than rocket punching.

 

if you want to run a rocket punch centered spec you'd be better off specing ironfist and using the combat tech set. rocket punch and utility become more of a focus with this spec than cp. cp is all about proccing railshot.

 

im also almost certain for a fully geared powertech (champion gear) 70% (40% additional) armor pen railshot is going to hit harder than a 30% extra crit damage rocket punch. armor completely mitigates rocket punch were railshot as cp will have 70% armor pen. yes, rocket punch will crit more often, however the 40% armor pen is always there where 30% extra crit damage is only there on a rocket punch crit.

[Athilias]

I run a CP. I am interested in where you put those two extras... can you actually name it please or link your build?

 

I run with a different sort of build, cause I also tank for my guild. My spec is this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RRGbbRboMZZbIbbdh.1

 

However, the spec I was talking about would be this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRGb0MdoMZZbIbbdh.1

 

Mine simply has 6% more absorption, and 60s off the CD of Kolto Overload (15% of your max health back over 10s) instead of 4% more damage on all fire effects. The 2 points you change are from Puncture to Flame Surge. Flame Surge gives you 30% bonus damage to your RP. With Combat Tech set, your RP easily crits 50% of the time, base. Since RP is a 9s CD (and it has 50% chance to refresh when you shield) it comes up more often, and crits more often then RS, even with FB proc for RS. It won't hit as hard as a 21/2/18 RS would, but it will come out more often, and crit more often, which to me averages out it's damage to be higher. Then you still have your RS, which will still do good damage.

[tbsly]

I run with a different sort of build, cause I also tank for my guild. My spec is this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RRGbbRboMZZbIbbdh.1

 

However, the spec I was talking about would be this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRGb0MdoMZZbIbbdh.1

 

Mine simply has 6% more absorption, and 60s off the CD of Kolto Overload (15% of your max health back over 10s) instead of 4% more damage on all fire effects. The 2 points you change are from Puncture to Flame Surge. Flame Surge gives you 30% bonus damage to your RP. With Combat Tech set, your RP easily crits 50% of the time, base. Since RP is a 9s CD (and it has 50% chance to refresh when you shield) it comes up more often, and crits more often then RS, even with FB proc for RS. It won't hit as hard as a 21/2/18 RS would, but it will come out more often, and crit more often, which to me averages out it's damage to be higher. Then you still have your RS, which will still do good damage.

 

i have a hard time understand why you're not just running an ironfist spec instead of cp with your mindset. many of us haven't specced ironfist or used combat tech because the 2 piece bonus makes your carbonize not work. this is supposedly getting fixed next patch. your carbonize not working will lose you games sometimes. it's very game breaking esp. on huttball.

[Timepants]

I find I Rail Shot a lot more than I Rocket Punch in a fight. Since the Flame Shield reset is tied to shielding an attack, it doesn't happen a lot in PvP where the majority of attacks coming at you can't be shielded, so most often I'm just using it off cooldown. Meanwhile, Prototype Particle Accelerator is up a good bit, and that extra 40% Armor Pen adds a good bit to its punch, even against relatively light-armored opponents.

 

That said, you wouldn't exactly be breaking the spec if you took Flame Sweep over Puncture, so go with what suits you better.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Timepants

[Athilias]

im almost certain the op is wrong about rocket punch coming up more than railshot. the whole point of going 18 into pyro is to make your rocket punch and flame burst proc railshot.

 

your rocket punch has a 45% chance of refreshing railshot. flame burst has a 30% chance.

 

as a typical cp spec you will be theoretically railshoting more than rocket punching. with that said, railshot becomes your main attack. giving railshot an addition armor pen of 40% is > than giving your rocket punch 30% extra crit damage because you will be railshoting more than rocket punching.

 

if you want to run a rocket punch centered spec you'd be better off specing ironfist and using the combat tech set. rocket punch and utility become more of a focus with this spec than cp. cp is all about proccing railshot.

 

im also almost certain for a fully geared powertech (champion gear) 70% (40% additional) armor pen railshot is going to hit harder than a 30% extra crit damage rocket punch. armor completely mitigates rocket punch were railshot as cp will have 70% armor pen. yes, rocket punch will crit more often, however the 40% armor pen is always there where 30% extra crit damage is only there on a rocket punch crit.

 

You can't include RP chance to proc RS, and say that RS will come up more often. Even if RP does proc RS, it's still 1 for 1 at that point. FB can proc railshot, but it will also give you a lot of heat, the amount RS vents, isn't enough to make up for the heat FB gave over time. My build lets you cycle in other moves instead of trying to use FB to constantly proc RS, other moves that have a better heat management. You also have to keep IM up on the target if you're planning to proc that heat, and IM is a heat pig, not good for extended fights.

 

I also never said that RP hits harder then a 21/2/18 RS, I've actually said the opposite. I've just stated that RP crits more often, and with the 30% bonus, it makes up for the damage loss from RS, by coming out more often, and critting more often. To give a example, lets say RP hits a target 5x. 3x it's a crit, due it's base 50%. It does 1.4k 2x, and 2.6k 3x. Now RS hits a target 5x, but due to it's lower crit rate, it only crits 2x. So it does 1.6k 3x and 3k 2x. So RP did a total of 10.6k where as RS did a total of 10.8k. Only a .2k difference, doesn't seem like much right? However, now you have to include the extra you could do if you weren't trying to proc RS. That means ED, FT, even unload in some cases. All 3 of those do better damage then FB, and are better heat management. On top of that, if RS doesn't crit, it can be shielded/deflected/dodged. So things like Saber Ward can effectively hurt your DPS while up.

 

Basically, with the build I posted, I've done less GCDs of Rapid Shots, because my heat management is better. I get more DPS for my heat, cause I'm not as worried about procing RS off my FB. I try to proc it more often off my RP (especially since RP can be proc'd off shielding). That extra damage I save not doing FB makes up for a somewhat weaker RS. On top of that, my RP is more consistant damage since it can't be dodged/deflected/shielded and it crits more often.

 

i have a hard time understand why you're not just running an ironfist spec instead of cp with your mindset. many of us haven't specced ironfist or used combat tech because the 2 piece bonus makes your carbonize not work. this is supposedly getting fixed next patch. your carbonize not working will lose you games sometimes. it's very game breaking esp. on huttball.

 

Mine still works fine, and I have all 4 pieces. Perhaps not broken for everyone? As I stated before, I don't run Iron Fist because I like having 2 good attacks to go to. Iron Fist makes you do most of your damage with RB dot, and RP. Just not enough damage overall for me, where as IM's dot + RS + RP is good damage. I don't find I need quell that often since I rotate around that 10m range a lot, and it's not hard to pop out of it to Jet Charge or Grapple the person I'm trying to stop casting. I also don't typically go after healers by myself, cause I just don't want to deal with the annoyance, and nothing think either CP spec has enough burst to consistantly take a good healer down. Even using all 5 of my interrupts, I'd say I can only bring a healer down solo about 3/10 times, but could also be the way I play. I'm more worried about keeping our healers alive, taunting, while still doing good, sustained damage.

 

 

To clear up, I'm not saying it's some breaking thing. I don't think switching the points is going to add another 60k damage to your score either. I just didn't understand why so many people are set in stone on 21/2/18, and figured someone out there may have done some testing.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Athilias

[michaeloforange]

shifting 2 pts out of RS isn't going to break the spec. but it is no longer a Carolina Parakeet, either.

 

As for which pts are better spent, I suggest heading to Sithwarrior.com to check the maths.

[Rotm]

The Crit bonus on RP is awesome and even better with the set bonus. 75% crit with it should be pretty attainable. The 40% on rail is being overrated I believe. Not only is it superior in situations where a free rail doesn't proc during the first RP cooldown phase but you lose damage in a burst phase where RP will have near 100% crit chance with explosive fuel to maximize the effect of trinkets, stims, exp buffs etc.

[TheronFett]

I think a lot of you are forgetting the entire point of the Carolina Parakeet build.

 

Shielding/Absorb is basically broken past a certain threshold, especially in PvP. The top end of the Shieldtech tree therefore, is virtually useless...and it's an unwise investment of skill points to go deep into that tree.

 

CP seeks to maximize Shieldtech's good points and pick up DPS somewhere else. It's a more viable tanking spec than going full tank, if you get my meaning. CP was never meant to be a competitive DPS build...and it isn't.

Edited February 18, 2012 by TheronFett

[Athilias]

I think a lot of you are forgetting the entire point of the Carolina Parakeet build.

 

Shielding/Absorb is basically broken past a certain threshold, especially in PvP. The top end of the Shieldtech tree therefore, is virtually useless...and it's an unwise investment of skill points to go deep into that tree.

 

CP seeks to maximize Shieldtech's good points and pick up DPS somewhere else. It's a more viable tanking spec than going full tank, if you get my meaning. CP was never meant to be a competitive DPS build...and it isn't.

 

No one is really saying it's meant to be competitive DPS, and most people here have been advocating for the 21/2/18 anyway. I just think 23/0/18 is more sustained DPS then the 21/2/18. Without combat logs though, I think it will be pure speculation.

[Jabbb]

Are you on crack OP? I railshot on average every 6 seconds and railshot does more dmg and the 2 points you're talking about are a 30% increase to crit dmg, not crit chance, which works out to only an average of 9% increased RP dmg if you have 30% crit. So no, taking the railshot is way way way better.

[theangryllama]

But you don't get to 90% with the Parakeet, you only get to 70%, and with the build I posted you still have 30% armor penetration. My point was that RP comes up more often, can crit more often, and gets more bonus to crit. I ran the 21/2/18 and my Max crit I saw with Railshot was 3k (averaged out at about 2.8k) and RP was about 2.1k average with it. Now my RP hits for 2.6k average, and I've seen RS still hit for 2.8k though I'd say it averages out at about 2.5k. My RP comes up more often then RS however, so I get more hits this way, and RP crits a heck of a lot more often. The only thing I miss was a stronger ranged crit.

 

Anyway, my real point was that everyone seems so certain that 21/2/18 is more efficient, so I was curious if someone had done a good amount of testing on it.

 

Railshot procs will always happen, they happen from range and you've said even with rocket punch talented it still hits harder.

It shouldn't come up that much more often that railshot if unless you are really unlucky with procs.

As a hybrid dps spec it means it is built around being able to dps with CGC... this means no shielding which means no rocket punch refreshes (this is the biggest reason imo).

Large amount of attacks cannot be shielded in pvp thus again you get more railshots than rocket punches.

Railshot as a main focus does not require you to be getting hit.

Rocket punch refreshes mean more railshot refreshes which then means railshot does more damage again.

[Crass]

I've gone back and forth between 23/0/18 and 21/2/18. What i'm about to say ignores the utility of the CP build in pve as I'll only be comparing the two as pure pvp specs.

 

With the Eliminator 4pc, 21/2/18 works as well as everyone on these forums says it does. It's a great pvp hybrid spec. It's solid, consistent damage for a tank/dps hybrid.

 

Sometimes burst doesn't matter. If you're 1v1'ing a class who can't heal, slightly better sustained damage wins. But when you're trying to kill that pesky healer (or even a dps spec'd hybrid), on-demand burst will get the job done more often than slighlty better sustained damage.

 

Where the 23/0/18 build shines is in it's burst potential. With the Combat Tech 4pc, i concede just a little sustained damage (compared to CP), but gain guaranteed burst. Rocket Punch has a ~100% crit chance with offensive cds popped. We all know burst is king in pvp. Being able to set up a kill because i have on-demand burst is what puts this build slightly ahead of the other one. The 2pc bonus is also more than just icing on the cake.

 

Now, that said, the Combat Tech 2pc is broken. For that reason alone, i run 4pc Eliminator and a 21/2/18 build. 23/0/18 just isn't as viable without the ability to utilize the Combat Tech set. Both specs are fantastic imo and the difference between the two is pretty marginal, but a working Combat Tech set will push the 23/0/18 build slightly ahead of the 21/2/18 build for me personally.

[Ashmantle]

Bah I posted this spec on 2nd Dec, bet that was the first time it was posted, should be called the Ashmantle spec .

 

Actually that one was 20/3/18 but storm moved. The synergy between focus impact, high friction, ion accelerator and static shield is too good too miss up on IMO, 40% armour mitigation is quite a bit.

 

Then again never played it so only theory on my side.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Ashmantle

[Sookster]

What? 30% crit RP doing more damage than 70% armor penetrating RS? I don't think so. Which will do more damage vs a 45% armor, a 5000 damage rocket punch or a 3000 damage railshot?

[Varicite]

What? 30% crit RP doing more damage than 70% armor penetrating RS? I don't think so. Which will do more damage vs a 45% armor, a 5000 damage rocket punch or a 3000 damage railshot?

 

Considering that CP will do at least 2-3 Railshots before the cd for Rocket Punch comes back up, this easily goes to Railshot.

 

If you even refresh Railshot once, it has already done more damage than the 30% crit on Rocket Punch. And w/ the state of shielding in pvp, it WILL come up more than Rocket Punch.

[Agooz]

But you don't get to 90% with the Parakeet, you only get to 70%, and with the build I posted you still have 30% armor penetration. My point was that RP comes up more often, can crit more often, and gets more bonus to crit. I ran the 21/2/18 and my Max crit I saw with Railshot was 3k (averaged out at about 2.8k) and RP was about 2.1k average with it. Now my RP hits for 2.6k average, and I've seen RS still hit for 2.8k though I'd say it averages out at about 2.5k. My RP comes up more often then RS however, so I get more hits this way, and RP crits a heck of a lot more often. The only thing I miss was a stronger ranged crit.

 

Anyway, my real point was that everyone seems so certain that 21/2/18 is more efficient, so I was curious if someone had done a good amount of testing on it.

 

The obvious answer is the range limitation. When you consider that you can always fire your RS and not needing to be in melee to get your RP off, then RS becomes way more important.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Agooz