A Gap Closer for Operatives

[astrolite]

Stealth is not a gap closer. You open on the guy with your opener and you get knocked back. You cannot restealth in combat unless you use your incombat stealth which has a long CD.

 

On a further note though, I don't think operatives/scoundrels need a gap closer. Many people seem to forget we have this skill called "Tendon Blast" for scoundrels (dunno what it's called for operatives) and also "flurry of bolts" while closing your distance. If you think your opponent is going to knock you back. Use your tendon blast right before so after the initial knockback, you can actually close your distance while using flurry of bolts without them running away.

 

So what about the player attacking you from 30m away, or on a platform, while you're trying to drop combat to go to stealth? Just run away and be useless for the next 20 seconds or burn your 2-3m cooldown? Every other melee class has a gap closer (including the other stealth class) for a reason, because ranged have the inherent advantage in combat.

[Leszor]

 

On a further note though, I don't think operatives/scoundrels need a gap closer. Many people seem to forget we have this skill called "Tendon Blast" for scoundrels (dunno what it's called for operatives) and also "flurry of bolts" while closing your distance. If you think your opponent is going to knock you back. Use your tendon blast right before so after the initial knockback, you can actually close your distance while using flurry of bolts without them running away.

 

Sorry but you dont seem to think about the other player also using his skills

If you Tendon Blast a Sorc/Sage right after Shoot First for example, he not only will just knockback you and then snare you from range, but also will be able to use Force Speed with impunity, since you wont be able to tendonblast-root him at that point, due to the fairly high cooldown

 

As already stated by many in this thread: theres a reason ALL the melee classes have better snares AND a gap closer, and yes, that includes the "other" stealther class

Edited February 23, 2012 by Leszor

[raelimar]

Stealth is your gap closer.

 

 

/winthread

 

 

 

Then what the hell do Assassins/Shadows need Force Speed and pull for?

[TheronFett]

Positioning, it's not just for the bedroom

 

I LOL'd.

[Valsdad]

Then what the hell do Assassins/Shadows need Force Speed and pull for?

 

He's going to say that scoundrels have heals. Because being able to spend 2 seconds casting a 1.5k heal and using 25% of my energy has saved my *** more times than i can remember... let me tell ya.

[DariuszPol]

Operative:

 

-Worst healer in the game

-Worst stealther in the game

-Worst DPS in the game

-NO utility in Huttball

 

And yet I

~ don't kill because it's waste of our time

~ ninja doors, ball carriers and turrets without being detected

~ kill people before they can do anything

~ sneak into enemy base so Sorc can sprint below bridges, pass me the ball and show your team how my Operative make few meters and score. 5:0 in 2-3 minutes and then we farm loosers for valor and medals

 

Really... play Operative at least for lvl 45 if you don't want to hit 50 and then try to tell jokes like that.

 

About topic - I DON'T NEED GAP CLOSER. Because once I'm behind a target he is dead anyway. Whatever he will do.

[Luckorforever]

Operative:

 

-Worst healer in the game

-Worst stealther in the game

-Worst DPS in the game

-NO utility in Huttball

 

***!

 

Did they nerf my OP today?

[Valsdad]

About topic - I DON'T NEED GAP CLOSER. Because once I'm behind a target he is dead anyway. Whatever he will do.

 

You need better competition then.

[PostalTwinkie]

I would rather have a better stealth mechanic over a gap closer. As it is I feel it is too easy to see someone in stealth and knock them out of it, preventing them from opening. I can't say how many times I have gone to hit someone and they hit me before I get behind them because of how weak stealth is.

[Tinboy]

So what about the player attacking you from 30m away, or on a platform, while you're trying to drop combat to go to stealth? Just run away and be useless for the next 20 seconds or burn your 2-3m cooldown? Every other melee class has a gap closer (including the other stealth class) for a reason, because ranged have the inherent advantage in combat.

 

Your post is irrelevant. You're bringing in more players than one vs your scoundrel/operative. Scoundrel/operative was never meant to be taking on several people at once in the first place. Obviously you use your combat stealth if you're getting ganged on since you'll last 3 seconds at most with your squishyness.

 

Sorry but you dont seem to think about the other player also using his skills

If you Tendon Blast a Sorc/Sage right after Shoot First for example, he not only will just knockback you and then snare you from range, but also will be able to use Force Speed with impunity, since you wont be able to tendonblast-root him at that point, due to the fairly high cooldown

 

As already stated by many in this thread: theres a reason ALL the melee classes have better snares AND a gap closer, and yes, that includes the "other" stealther class

 

And you're also missing the fact we got other skills we can use? Dirty kick is a must right after the opener followed up by backblast/tendon blast. If he uses CC removal for that dirty kick, he's still slowed for another 12 seconds. Furthermore, you're also forgeting the fact you have your own CC removal skill.

 

I don't want to get too much into theory crafting cause imo it's retarded. But personally, I've played a scoundrel since launch and I see no problems. If we do get a gap closer, that'll be nice; however, it isn't a must.

[Bizwolf]

I'll give up my healing for shadowstep all day everyday! I'll even throw in Diagnostic Scan but that will hurt a little bit.

[Valsdad]

Your post is irrelevant. You're bringing in more players than one vs your scoundrel/operative. Scoundrel/operative was never meant to be taking on several people at once in the first place. Obviously you use your combat stealth if you're getting ganged on since you'll last 3 seconds at most with your squishyness.

 

 

 

And you're also missing the fact we got other skills we can use? Dirty kick is a must right after the opener followed up by backblast/tendon blast. If he uses CC removal for that dirty kick, he's still slowed for another 12 seconds. Furthermore, you're also forgeting the fact you have your own CC removal skill.

 

I don't want to get too much into theory crafting cause imo it's retarded. But personally, I've played a scoundrel since launch and I see no problems. If we do get a gap closer, that'll be nice; however, it isn't a must.

 

So... Dirty Kick should be used to prevent kiting then? The same Dirty Kick that shows a 4m range on my tooltip?

 

And if he used his CC removal for the Dirty Kick; the same CC removal removed any snare that was on him.

 

The problem with fighting someone is that the sot will always be trying at his own plan, damn him. So, snaring a Sorc does nothing if you are snared yourself. Because guess what... He snared you too because he doesn't want to die. He also has a myriad of other tools specifically designed to prevent sneaky little bastards like myself from getting close to his pretty little dress.

[Tinboy]

So... Dirty Kick should be used to prevent kiting then? The same Dirty Kick that shows a 4m range on my tooltip?

 

And if he used his CC removal for the Dirty Kick; the same CC removal removed any snare that was on him.

 

The problem with fighting someone is that the sot will always be trying at his own plan, damn him. So, snaring a Sorc does nothing if you are snared yourself. Because guess what... He snared you too because he doesn't want to die. He also has a myriad of other tools specifically designed to prevent sneaky little bastards like myself from getting close to his pretty little dress.

 

Dude, his CC removal and his knockback isn't one skill. You see the CC removal, you use tendon blast. Though this is dependent on your reaction time.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Tinboy

[cokn]

I saw give them a ranged (15m) Snare ala Force Slow. That solves the issue.

[Valsdad]

Dude, his CC removal and his knockback isn't one skill. You see the CC removal, you use tendon blast.

 

What you fail to grasp is that doing that exact thing isn't enough. You will still be kited because he has more ways to keep you away than you have to gain ground.

[Lidasel]

but one requires us to use Debilitate on a target (our best stun)

J/k, doesn't even work (at least not for Scoundrels).

 

Stealth is your gapcloser

So, i'm being kitet, i guess i'll just stealth right away! Oh wut, i can't because im in combat? What a pitty! Guess i'll just throw my 2 min vanish! No what? It's on CD because i used it to get in range first? Nevermind, i got this: Tendon Blast! He's more then 10m away? Then i'll just Flashbang him to... OH WAIT!

In that case i'm gonna use my "ranged skills":

XS Flyby... no, 3 sec cast + 2 sec delay, he'll be out of range when it lands.

Sabotage Charge - ah, requires cover, he'll be out of range, too.

Charged Burst - Cover...

Frag Grenade - Yeah, eat this 900 DMG, in 6 seconds you'll get it again. I'm glad i have far superior damage then a Jedi Knight wo could throw his saber for pathetic 2k+ dmg!

 

 

=> /vote for Shadowstep-like ability with 20-30m range and 20-30 sec CD to be able to pass the Z axis in Huttball and add a 10% movementspeed "sprint" on sneak to be able to open on walking targets from stealth without filling the resolve bar with Tranquilizer.

 

Oh yeah, and fix the CC.

 

Flashbang (Smuggler) - 1 min CD - AoE Mezz => 800 Resolve

Creeping Terror (Warrior) - 45 sec CD - AoE Mezz => 600 Resolve

 

Tranquilizer (Scoundrel) - Out-of-Stealth Mezz => 1000 Resolve (100%)

Mindcontroll (Shadow) - Out-of-Stealth Mezz => 800 Resolve

 

Dirty Kick (Smuggler) - Stun - 4m range - Stupid kick animation - 600 Resolve

Force Stun (Sage) - Stun - 30m range - CD 5-20 sec longer - 400 Resolve

Edited February 23, 2012 by Lidasel

[Chaosmagistrate]

 

Oh yeah, and fix the CC.

 

Flashbang (Smuggler) - 1 min CD - AoE Mezz => 800 Resolve

Creeping Terror (Warrior) - 45 sec CD - AoE Mezz => 600 Resolve

 

Tranquilizer (Scoundrel) - Out-of-Stealth Mezz => 1000 Resolve (100%)

Mindcontroll (Shadow) - Out-of-Stealth Mezz => 800 Resolve

 

Dirty Kick (Smuggler) - Stun - 4m range - Stupid kick animation - 600 Resolve

Force Stun (Sage) - Stun - 30m range - CD 5-20 sec longer - 400 Resolve

 

Your shadowstep suggestion is way overpowered and is basically asking to play a Marauder with Vanish.

 

On your CC note, you are isolating the context and not what they entail.

 

Flashbang is a targetable ranged AoE Mezz.

Awe is a Point-blank-Aoe Mezz that costs focus.

 

Tranquilizer - costs less resources than Mind Control.

 

Force Stun -- Eh, I'll give you this one. kinda.

[raelimar]

Your shadowstep suggestion is way overpowered and is basically asking to play a Marauder with Vanish.

 

Marauders already have Vanish, genius.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Marauders already have Vanish, genius.

 

I haven't played a rogue in over 5 years, but looking at your response and infering your intelligence level, I won't bother looking up wowhead to confirm if Vanish under the Rogue abilities has changed that much since Vanilla, but...

 

Since I didn't actually refer to Vanilla WoW and Rogues, I can understand that you may not have picked up the reference, what with your low-IQ and all.

 

But Vanish for all intents and purposes, drops the playable character out of combat and puts them back into stealth.

 

Force Camoflauge does not do that......

 

 

Genius.

[Ich_Bin]

Your shadowstep suggestion is way overpowered and is basically asking to play a Marauder with Vanish.

 

On your CC note, you are isolating the context and not what they entail.

 

Flashbang is a targetable ranged AoE Mezz.

Awe is a Point-blank-Aoe Mezz that costs focus.

 

Tranquilizer - costs less resources than Mind Control.

 

Force Stun -- Eh, I'll give you this one. kinda.

 

On a side note: Flashbang is harder to target than Awe. You have to hope your opponents run close enough together in the right moment because you are throwing it at one opponent instead of manually targeting the area. Also I believe Flashbang has a much smaller radius than Awe.

I would also gladly have to use more energy for tranquilizer if it gave less resolve. Because when you are using tranquilizer you usually have a full energy pool and are often times not using any other abilites within the next seconds. So it is really not important how much energy it costs.

 

 

Back on topic: When you study the Operative/Scoundrel skll tree it becomes very apparent that there is no clear concept behind the skills. There is no synergy.

Take the Dirty Fighting spec for example. Some skills have 30m range, some 10m range, some 4m range. And those skills are intended to be used together as they benefit from each other.

 

I think that Bioware did not really intend the Scoundrel to be a melee class like it is being played in practice, so they did not give us a gap closer. The problem is, that when you try to play ranged with this class, you are essentially useless.

So a gap closer (or anything else that improves our skill's synergy) is really needed.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Leszor]

And you're also missing the fact we got other skills we can use? Dirty kick is a must right after the opener followed up by backblast/tendon blast. If he uses CC removal for that dirty kick, he's still slowed for another 12 seconds. Furthermore, you're also forgeting the fact you have your own CC removal skill.

 

I don't want to get too much into theory crafting cause imo it's retarded. But personally, I've played a scoundrel since launch and I see no problems. If we do get a gap closer, that'll be nice; however, it isn't a must.

 

Well... no

Depending on the target sometimes is actually a bad idea to Dirty Kick right after the initial knockdown wears off

 

Anyways theorycrafting is indeed retarded since there are countless variables in a WZ, but what i was getting at is that, against force speed users (aka, the vast majority of a Rep's opponents) you simply cannot use Tendon Blast for its snare effect, you need to save it for root-denying force speed, otherwise you have NO chance of gaining that ground back

 

I'm also playing a Scoundrel since the start, but i also play a Sorceror and i simply cant believe how some (even very high ranked) people can get killed by me, while with my Sorc i can kite them to oblivion simply because... i know the horrible limitations ops/scs have

[Chaosmagistrate]

On a side note: Flashbang is harder to target than Awe. You have to hope your opponents run close enough together in the right moment because you are throwing it at one opponent instead of manually targeting the area. Also I believe Flashbang has a much smaller radius than Awe.

QUOTE]

 

I play both, and I would say the radius is smaller only because Flashbang would have a radius of say 2.5m, and Awe would be 5m because it would be centered around yourself. Realistically, both radii are larger than that as I have been able to Awe people while they jump on the crate in Voidstar.

 

I'm just simply pointing out that the mechanics are not the same, thus cannot be treated the exact same. The effect is the same, and also Flashbang lasts longer than Awe.

[astrolite]

Your post is irrelevant. You're bringing in more players than one vs your scoundrel/operative. Scoundrel/operative was never meant to be taking on several people at once in the first place. Obviously you use your combat stealth if you're getting ganged on since you'll last 3 seconds at most with your squishyness.

 

This is hilarious. Yeah, I am not meant to take on several people at once (why does flashbang CC so many targets, why does aoe exist, blah, blah). So when I open on someone and one of their teammates happens upon our battle I will be sure to tell them to get in melee range and stay put while I finish this fight up. I'll also inform ranged people they can only shoot one person until they die and melee people not to use their gap closers on the ranged person so they can interrupt them mid fight, since they were never meant to do that.

Edited February 24, 2012 by astrolite

[Antilogical]

I'm just simply pointing out that the mechanics are not the same, thus cannot be treated the exact same. The effect is the same, and also Flashbang lasts longer than Awe.

 

Indeed they are not the same, but the mechanics of Flash Bang are very tedious, as you must be facing the target, be within 10m of them, and if you don't get all your desired targets within the one flashbang all you've succeeded in doing is filling up their resolve bar.

 

On a side note, I have a cool idea for what the operative and scoundrel gap closer could be. A reverse grappling hook, that instead of pullinng your target towards you, pulls you toawrds your target

[Vamina]

Your post is irrelevant. You're bringing in more players than one vs your scoundrel/operative. Scoundrel/operative was never meant to be taking on several people at once in the first place. Obviously you use your combat stealth if you're getting ganged on since you'll last 3 seconds at most with your squishyness.

So that's why pvp in this game is primarily team based. It also must be why the other classes have tools for Xv1 situations that aren't on a 2 minute cooldown.

 

On another note, it's good to see my thread is still alive and up to 20 pages. Carry on my OP/SC brothers...lets make ourselves heard!