So you think other melee classes (with gap closers) have no ranged abilities and that makes operatives unique? OK. You also think we move at 130% speed while chasing someone in combat? OK. Need a better argument against MMO 101 melee design. Find a successful melee class, in any MMO, that does not have a gap closer. I don't know of any, but I would like to know if they even exist.

Yes, nitpicking here. If Merc/Commando are at a huge disadvantage because of lacking a gap closer (not sure why this would be useful to them) or interrupts, then I hope they are making these suggestions on their class forums too. Gap closer for melee is not a matter of haves and have nots... it is integral to melee class design. The alternative is to make suggestions to remove CC/snares from ranged classes since it effects operatives due to lack of a gap closer. Then gap closers would be over the top for those classes that have them.

Except that controlled burst is better for PvP. We'd be far better off having built-up burst since we can time it with interrupts and CC and having an execute. If you're trying to blow up healers - guarded at that, timing means a lot. Edit: Basically I am saying Assassins are better. Period. We NEED more in our toolset to stand out.

It truly baffles me when people say a melee class does not need a gap closer. You will quickly realize you need one when you get engaged by a competent ranged person out of stealth. They will not stand there and wait for you to get to them. They will not recklessly follow you around a pillar - they will keep a manageable distance all the while keeping you in combat and out of stealth. You live by cloaking screen or simply by not engaging in fights where others are around (go teamplay!).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2012/03/06/prweb9254341.DTL The DFC report points out that the data is still preliminary given that SWTOR is so new. "While early signs are fairly positive, over the next few months the plan is to closely monitor usage and consumer reaction to gauge how well Star Wars: The Old Republic performs over time," said Miller. "The next three to six months will be critical to determine if the game can attract a large and sustained paying subscriber base." Make it or break it time, based on their research.

If they do, they sure have a lot of talent points to spend.

They will fix the bug and then nerf the class again because they "were found to be able to enter stealth more quickly than intended". There has been so many complaints of being stuck in combat as a large hurdle of playing an operative. Either they purposefully ignored them or they are incompetent. They need to assign class designers to monitor, post, and collect data from the class forums. It's a huge mismanagement issue here.

You're far too trusting of Bioware - 1. They released a "broken" class 2. They don't provide their metrics other than saying there is a magic formula 3. Their metrics seem to be very even numbers (e.g. 20% vs 18.3%) 4. Quotes of nerfing based on subjective data (not taking in to account skill/gear disparity, listening to forum whining) 5. Not understanding melee 101 (gap closer!) 6. Having other classes with the same damage output, stealth, and a lot more utility 7. Mirror class has huge issues with animation times hosing their ability timings I could go on, but I think Bioware just can't get this class right and it'll be stuck in beta-mode for a long time, at the expense of those who decided to roll a non-saber class. I am glad you enjoy it though - you are probably in the minority.

Operative... the class that never left beta.

I won't disagree totally. It was merely one example of how killing someone "in under 8 seconds" easily is a loaded statement. Based on your post, you're not killing many people in under 8 seconds either (prepping for being kited, using ranged).

My operative had full BM and I rarely was killing any equally geared folks in 5 GCDs, even with buff stacking. You need chain crits to get close to that and for them to not get off a knockback/CC between the knockdown and next GCD coming up for the stun. Only overpowered when I buff stack and get chain crits... can say the same about any class. Anyways, same story after each nerf. BW has yet to get the clue. Will remain unsubscribed and at this point, probably forever.

8 seconds had better be some undocumented change to 1.2 or it has been a bug forever.

"Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"

From the interview with Georg: On the topic of nerfs, it’s obviously controversial if we decide we have to nerf something. I don’t expect people to throw us a parade. Ultimately, people are going to be very unhappy. Practical matter is you need a complete bird’s eye view of all eight classes — how they interplay with each other, how the entire health of the game is — to fully understand how things go. There is the small-minded approach of “so many people play Sorcerer, BioWare is never going to touch them.” No, that is not how it works. If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people — yes, there aren’t many Operatives — but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause it’s not fun. We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe. We can nerf your class because it is unfun for others, but we'll do it in such a way that it's not fun for you. There are so many fun ways to solve this problem (if you even want to call it that....) and seeing BW choose the most unfun way is a bit revealing if anything. For example - a gap closer - every melee class has one in every mmo I have ever played. Except this one. Is this some revolutionary class that BW has made? Actually, no. Stealth DPS. Done many times before. Gap closers.

Saw this after my last post. You ARE NOT playing competent players if they break your 1.5s knockdown so you can use cloak to sleep dart them. Ridiculous.

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19979-guild-summit-interview-with-georg-zoeller/page-2 "We brought damage numbers across the game down, and that’s partly a function of ensuring that people — especially stacking Warzone adrenals and these kinds of things — don’t get the ridiculous numbers that they were getting. That wasn’t intended and we really had to act on that. I do reject that there is a “well, Operatives don’t have the sustained damage in Operations.” They do. They are within 5% of a Marauder." Obviously you all saw the Marauder buffs. Georg Zoeller stated we are within 5% of Marauder DPS.

I think the bottom line here is to expect buffs and mechanic changes across the board for operatives. You simply can not release the ability to track healing and damage and not make a good attempt at balance, it would otherwise show a lack of competence on behalf of the developers. I think the balance discussion post 1.2 will be in terms of utility, where Bioware uses an undisclosed "grading" system to determine how abilities are provided to classes/specs. I think a large grading weight was given to stealth, which was probably a mistake they are seeing in hindsight. My predictions - big focus on synergy: 1. Base energy regen boosted to be on par with other classes ability pools 2. Lethality complete rework of upper tree. Costs lowered. Range increased including TA generation - upper talents to avoid conceal/lethality hybrid. Talent to give dispel immunity or X% chance on dispel of DoT for it to do immediate damage. 3. Medicine talent rework includes defensive abilities, new casted heal, TA used for bonuses and not heals (e.g. instant cast heal, increase armor by x% on target, grant 100% crit on next heal, etc) 4. Hidden Strike removed and damage rolled in to backstab, shiv, lacerate. 30% crit bonus applied to all. Acid Blade removed as a 31 pt talent and given as a base ability to benefit concealment and lethality together. New 31 pt concealment talent to gain situational advantage vs requirement for pvp type dps. Most likely will be a gap closer of some sort and if used from stealth increases damage for x% for y time. I look forward to coming back to see how wrong I was

Old system: Grind BM and fight RNG for gear New system: Level 2 50s and get BM/gear in the same time it took under old system If I would have known this a couple months ago I would have focused on another level 50.

Ironic that you provided this link and got the information wrong in your post. Tech is NOT force.

1 second flashbang because of AB DoT? Use sever tendon root and save the resolve. I generally save explosive probe for the kiters

What talents did you give up to spend the 3 points for the extra damage? I find those to be a waste of 3 points compared to what you give up. If you map out the rotation you will see that the AB DoT damage will ultimately have gaps in any of them - it is just where it occurs. There are a lot of variables with rotations. Sever tendon can collide with other cooldowns coming up. Collateral strike adds another lacerate (gcd), etc. In terms of pure overall rotation damage you probably want to use lacerate up front to go for a collateral strike, because it is limited to once per 10 seconds. The later you use lacerate, the longer that bonus will take to come around again. I don't think there is a best method that fits every scenario, but my preference is to unload HS/BS upfront since I then have more of a chance to reuse BS later in the fight. If I always faced people who tried to tank my damage and no one else jumped in then I would simply pick the rotation that provided the most consistent damage over a longer period vs shorter period.

That is a PvE way of thinking. If you're waiting for 6 seconds to use BS you run the potential of: 1. Getting CC'd right before you do it (stun wears off around that mark) 2. CC break being used (almost always on the 4s stun) In either of those cases, you will be CC'd or kited by any competent player. That also means your cooldowns are likely to be up when you've snared and are back on target (if you can even make it back). BS, along with the 2pc PvE bonus, will be sitting at 60%+ crit and also gains an extra 30% crit damage bonus. I'd rather have the assurance it lands up front and does damage than gamble over extra DoT which can be applied again a few seconds later (you are down 3 ticks of AB in a perfect world). Further, if you are fighting multiple people your BS will be up soon to apply AB DoT to your next target. Just too many variables to have a perfect rotation.

AB HS BS stun shiv laceratex2 I prioritize based on cooldowns / damage dealers. I often skip the stun if: 1. Double crits 2. Little damage Pretty wise to save it for when you truly need it vs following the same rotation each time. You also get people using CC break on the sever tendon root thinking it is a stun, which is wonderful. My 2c edit: had an extra move in there Can debate if the AB ticks are worth the cooldown coming up sooner though

What the OP is asking for is to subvert the ENTIRE purpose of expertise. To keep PvE gear out of PvP. You can go picket Bioware to have some crappy pre-Centurion craftable set because you're too lazy to pvp for 2 weeks.

They should just let med ops heal from stealth and boost all healing by 100% Easy fix. Then they can get around to more precise balance later, like others are suggesting. I'm sure the other healers would be as patient as those telling op healers to be.