Why are people complaining about endgame (vs WoW)

[Zhit]

Do not compare endgame WOW content to TOR content. WOW content at release was extremely challenging and took months to complete. TOR by comparison takes hours.

 

And don't compare WOW's current content to TOR either. The current content in WOW is extremely accessible. If you are a solo player and want a quick, cakewalk raid, jump in a queue and your raiding 10 minutes later. Compare this to the hours you will stand around looking for a group in TOR.

 

Just don't compare the two games. Pick lower handing fruit. Compare TOR to DCUO or something more reasonable. please.

[SpiffyJr]

Do not compare endgame WOW content to TOR content. WOW content at release was extremely challenging and took months to complete. TOR by comparison takes hours.

 

And don't compare WOW's current content to TOR either. The current content in WOW is extremely accessible. If you are a solo player and want a quick, cakewalk raid, jump in a queue and your raiding 10 minutes later. Compare this to the hours you will stand around looking for a group in TOR.

 

Just don't compare the two games. Pick lower handing fruit. Compare TOR to DCUO or something more reasonable. please.

 

Don't compare 40 man raid's in 2004 to < 20 man raids in 2012. The difficulty wasn't the content it was finding 40 competent people.

[SporadicusDecoy]

Now people said that WoW endgame MC was hard. I'll tell you what was really hard with MC.

 

Getting 40 (count'em: FORTY) people together at one time in the first place for longer than 2-3 hours.

 

Then get them to coordinate with each other.

 

THEN learn each boss' patterns.

 

THEN teach ALL FORTY PEOPLE those patterns and how to avoid them.

 

THEN hope to some higher power that these people got these patterns down within the first two weeks of learning them.

 

THEN pray to god that these SAME FORTY PEOPLE will all be there the next time to go another round in MC.

 

In the midst of this you get to hear squabbling between ALL FORTY PEOPLE about whose fault it was that caused the raid to go wrong.

 

THIS was what made MC hard.

Edited February 9, 2012 by SporadicusDecoy

[Blotter]

I meant from a development stand point not from a content/interest point. I can't even imagine how time consuming it's going to be for them to make content beyond what they have. They're going to have to start recording new VOs within a few months.

 

I'll bet you my entire gaming rig that they have hundreds of hours already recorded and waiting to be used on upcoming content.

[Iboga]

Why must everyone compare a brand new MMO to a game thats been around for over 7 years? Did you ever stop to think that while BW took some queues from Blizz they didn't want to do everything exactly the same? Not to mention this game has probably the most end game content of any newly released MMO to date.

 

I think the real problem is content locusts... they rush to max level within days of release, skipping the story, side quests, etc... and then stand around at max level complaining how there is nothing to do and no one to do it with. These people are the bane of any MMO. They'll unsub, wait a couple months and repeat the process... that's just the way they play...

[Blotter]

Why must everyone compare a brand new MMO to a game thats been around for over 7 years? Did you ever stop to think that while BW took some queues from Blizz they didn't want to do everything exactly the same? Not to mention this game has probably the most end game content of any newly released MMO to date.

 

I think the real problem is content locusts... they rush to max level within days of release, skipping the story, side quests, etc... and then stand around at max level complaining how there is nothing to do and no one to do it with. These people are the bane of any MMO. They'll unsub, wait a couple months and repeat the process... that's just the way they play...

 

Yep, and in between they'll use compaining on the forums as a poorly and thinly veiled way to brag about having done that.

[Fizil]

The whole '40-man gatekeeper' thing is true. However what everyone seems to be missing is that since removing that game makes everything easier...... You have to make the actual mechanics MUCH harder (usually not an option, fewer people also leaves less room for complex mechanics) OR produce new content MUCH FASTER.

 

This is where TOR has failed right now. They have produced an endgame much easier than even the current WoW endgame, but are not producing new content fast enough to hold peoples interest. If there were some alternative content for people doing Ops this might not be a problem, but Bioware decided not to innovate at all in their endgame, it is an exact carbon copy of WoW circa 2007 style endgame.

[maxbaby]

The WoW now is a repetitive cycle of what you have listed.

BW is following the same since the beginning without bothering to create a hook for players.

 

Make them want to return to this virtual world. Pose challenges which take time to complete.

Once BW gives us content which takes a bit more effort to complete (I am not talking about collecting tokens and doing dailies) and give us incentive to play content repeatedly - FPs, Ops, dailies, space, PvP - then the majority will be busy playing and conquering challenges.

[Oneiros_IV]

in WOW all the same is finely tuned, there are drama and huge gap between guilds who kill boss X and guild who didn't.

 

And that drama and amount of collective efffort is what keeps ppl playing.

 

In tor endgame is mostly fighting vs your UI, stacking unbalanced classes, facerolling everything and meeting new boss kill with a pockerface, instead of ******ic YEAH of the 25 manly throats I've heard so much times on mumble.

 

Tor endgame boss - tank spank, reset 'cuz it's bugged, flame BW, come back next day, collect loot available in 4mans / pvp

Tor endgame pvp - collect 30 crates, collect 150 crates if you're cool kid, when there's another guy driving cirlces collecting said crates it becomes COMPETITIVE ENDGAME PVP hurr

Tor space combat - finish Ascendacy Barrier just ANOTHER TIME, while munching cookies with left hand.

 

etc

[Dantragk]

I'll bet you my entire gaming rig that they have hundreds of hours already recorded and waiting to be used on upcoming content.

 

I already stated that someone at BW said they had a years worth of VOs. I'm saying that beyond that they're going to have to really buckle down and it's going to be extremely tough for them to keep content/VOs flowing if they don't get started on it within the next couple of months.

[Blotter]

I already stated that someone at BW said they had a years worth of VOs. I'm saying that beyond that they're going to have to really buckle down and it's going to be extremely tough for them to keep content/VOs flowing if they don't get started on it within the next couple of months.

 

Ah, I see what you're saying now. Thought you meant they had used all they had recorded and would need to create more right now in order to release more content. If they have "years" of it right now as they've said, then I think they're pretty much all set though. VO work is pretty quick to get done for this stuff, especially when using accomplished actors like they've done. It's the writing that's the hard and time consuming part.

[Dantragk]

Ah, I see what you're saying now. Thought you meant they had used all they had recorded and would need to create more right now in order to release more content. If they have "years" of it right now as they've said, then I think they're pretty much all set though. VO work is pretty quick to get done for this stuff, especially when using accomplished actors like they've done. It's the writing that's the hard and time consuming part.

 

Agreed. I'm not sure about years(who really knows outside of them anyways) but for their sake I hope they have a lot. But yeah, I meant the whole process and not just the recording step which is usually the easier part anyways.

[Ringzero]

Don't compare 40 man raid's in 2004 to < 20 man raids in 2012. The difficulty wasn't the content it was finding 40 competent people.

 

I do agree that finding 40 people was a challenge. Especially "competent" people. But competent is a pretty vague term. If by competent you mean they understand the content and mechanics of each boss fight, how not only their class role but other class roles must work together to take down the boss, and their toon is appropriately geared and attuned, then it was nearly impossible unless you were a part of a dedicated raiding guild who raided 4-5 times were week, wiping and wiping and wiping and experimenting and wiping some more.

 

MC near the beginning took upwards of 6-8 hours to clear. And that was only AFTER you'd figured out how to take down all the bosses. Of course as progression guilds geared up and mastered the techniques they could get it down to 3, but the point is, even with highly skilled players, MC and onwards in vanilla, raids in Burning Crusade, and many in Wrath of the Lich King (even with reduced caps) were extremely challenging even for the top guilds. Sometimes especially in later expansions the raids were gated, but before that it wasn't weeks to clear the raid, it took weeks to clear certain bosses, sometimes months. Then after that particularly difficult encounter was beaten, it was on to the next boss. My guild was stuck on Baron Geddon for almost 6 weeks. I haven't raided Cataclysm.

 

Blizzard did something fundamentally different with their raids than Bioware has done with operations. Blizzard made everything slower and more difficult. Leveling and attuning slowed everything down and prevented most anyone from even seeing Onyxia for months after launch, not to mention Molten Core. The fights were technically just more challenging. Many were gimmicky, but that just made them more varied and you had to experiment and push the limits to progress.

 

SWTOR: Here we are what, like 7 weeks after launch? Many people have multiple toons at cap and have cleared the operations. I can only assume, having not done them, that not only do they require fewer players, but they're incredibly simple. A glorified dungeon. Heck even dungeons in WoW were often super duper difficult right after launch, especially for PUGs.

 

Saying it's not fair to compare SW:TOR to WoW is silly. Just because they're different in many ways doesn't mean you can't compare them. Does that mean you can only compare things that are extremely similar? If nobody'd ever compared apples and oranges, we'd all be eating orange-wedge pie and apple cores. They're both large-scale MMOs and they SHOULD be compared, all aspects, all eras, everything. Go ahead and compare current SW:TOR with vanilla or any expansion of WoW. It's fair game.

 

I think Bioware needs to release some technically difficult and imaginative content. Yes, it's only less than 2 months after launch. Normally that would be fine, but they've rested too much on the enjoyment of the leveling process. It goes too fast. I would venture to say the operations are only end-game "heroic dungeons." They haven't released a raid-worthy operation yet. Whereas Blizzard typically starts encounters out really super hard and then nerfs them later, Bioware seems to have pre-nerfed them. I can't see them making them harder. You can start out hard and nerf them and people will whine because that's what people do, but at least you've satisfied the hardcores who can say they did it pre-nerf.

 

All that said, I think the consensus among the most game developers is that the future is in casual gaming. Heck, Blizzard's new MMO is going to be a lot more like Second Life, from what I've heard. If that's true, years from now we might all be reminiscing about how hard-core SW:TOR was at launch.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Ringzero

[Vyradder]

PvE: The content in Wow was diverse, articulate and challenging. Boss fights were varied and thought out. You had reputation systems, a real working token system that rewarded players regularly, a rich amount of daily quests, crafting quests, achievements (with rewards) etc. Drops from dungeons are exciting to both new players and seasoned.

 

snip

 

PvP: Where to begin? On the rewards level, its just terrible. Even removing RNG from the mix, getting PvP gear is a huge grind (although substantially less now). The quests around PvP are hugely bugged. Most PvP dailies/weekly revolve around Illum, which as of 1.1.2 is still super flawed and doesnt work right. There is documented huge amounts of lag in pvp regardless of system spec (once you get 15-18 people on screen, game goes to crap).As far as balance of pvp, its a CC fest.

 

WoW had NONE of this when it shipped. It had one raid, and world PvP that was so uncontrolled it crashed servers. I was there (and I still am, actually). In comparison, ToR is WAY ahead of wow when it shipped. The content will come in time just like it did in WoW, except with ToR they have a huge headstart.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Vyradder

[Dantragk]

WoW had NONE of this when it shipped. It had one raid, and world PvP that was so uncontrolled it crashed servers. I was there (and I still am, actually). In comparison, ToR is WAY ahead of wow when it shipped. The content will come in time just like it did in WoW, except with ToR they have a huge headstart.

 

Who cares about Vanilla WoW? Jiminy Cricket.

 

At least WoW had a combat log at launch...

[Dekadez]

^^^that guy. Ive seens a lot of posts about people quitting, some with blown up enough heads to actually start a thread about them quitting, Im just browsing the forums at work and saw that post and decided to reply, like the first line said, totally trolling I suppose but meh, bored at work, would rather be smugglin on NarShad, I know Im close to getting a wookie, Ive seen him now at least in a cutscene. . . . . . heeeeere wookie wookie wookie

 

You do your name proud: Hasty posts without a thought process passing over them. Do reread the **** you post, please.

[NDiggy]

Most likely cos the content in wow was actually challenging at the start. And noone finished MC first week it came out.

 

MC wasn't challenging at the start because the encounters were difficult. MC was challenging because Blizzard built in road blocks to keep guilds/raids from steamrolling through the content too quickly. You had attunements, aqual quintessences, and everyone needed fire resist gear. This all took time and effort to achieve before you could even start killing certain bosses. You'll notice in later expansions these types of roadblocks were removed.

 

You also have to account for the fact that mmo players are much more sophisticated today than they were when MC was first released (it wasn't in at launch). Now there are tons of websites with strategies for every boss and, in WoW at least, there were mods that helped trivialize content even further (DBM). Also keep in mind that many top guilds are on the public test and beta servers practicing content prior to release in order to achieve that world first as quickly as possible.

 

Finally, you have to remember that if more than one 40 man raid was in MC on the same server, the servers would crash. I remember everyone having to turn off their helm and cloak graphics so people's computers wouldn't chug to a halt.

 

In conclusion, MC wasn't any more difficult than current content. Players are more sophisticated and content doesn't have the artificial road blocks it used to have. Servers are also a lot better making raiding a more enjoyable experience than it was back around MC's heyday.

[Eduardod]

So far I'm enjoying SWTOR, however being stuck on one planet (one zone) for 10 levels is terrible. I love the fact that in WoW you could leave on zone and start questing in another. Being stuck in a zone that's just a bunch of hallways is terrible.

Please make zones that run in parallel to ea other, so you truely have a choice on where to go.

[dirtyv]

Nice comparison... I thought I was the only one seeing it that way.

 

Also good question because Im not really sure what else all the complaining people are looking for. The best part is, at this rate BW is adding things all the time. So in time there will be plenty of things to do.

 

Complainers want 7 years of content the second month the game has been out.

 

Ever heard the phrase haters gonna hate....

well Complainers gonna complain.

[Roechacca]

I wonder if WOW pays for all this free advertising on SWOTOR?

[TheHastyTadpole]

You do your name proud: Hasty posts without a thought process passing over them. Do reread the **** you post, please.

 

Oh I reread em, I even re-re'd most of em, I just dont know what Im looking for this time. . . should I have capitolized Wookie since it's a proper noun?

[dirtyv]

Only if the BioWare can stop with the 1 step forward, 2 steps backward patches...

 

Or if people on the forums would stop with the thousands of "armageddon its the end of the world, you ruined my life" threads over every single minute detail of the game.

[Luewen]

How long does it take people to finish end game content now in WoW? People will always strive to be "world first" but that does not accurately represent how the average player perceives the instance. Also, WoW started with 40 man raids which means you had to rely on more people to not screw up. Was it the content that was difficult or was it finding 40 competent people to do said content?

 

Okay lets forget 40 man raids. And concentrate on TBC 25 man ones. Even those took way longer to complete for your normal raider. Same for world firsts. I dont think any guilds went through them with one sitting like in ToR. It was slow going from boss to boss and every boss kill was an accomplishment and not a "yawn, one more boss down, lets go to next" borefest.

[Luewen]

Fix'd for ya

 

Content after TBC dont count as the ***** king started the downfall of wow with the walk in the park content...

[vgerdj]

I wonder if WOW pays for all this free advertising on SWOTOR?

 

Then it wouldn't be free, would it?