Fix LOLSLAM Juggs / Knights

[Xandarous]

I just owned you.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101ZIhMkRhdzZGr0ddbz.1

 

That is the worst spec I have ever seen.

[astrolite]

Here's the exchange on youtube from an operative using this as evidence and the creator of the video responds:

 

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I have been using your videos as anecdotal evidence of why operative burst was fine. I could never break 7k, highest I could get is around 6.2. I was stacking crit/surge mods/enh w/ power adrenal. Currently leveling my Jugg and playing on my powertech in the hopes they don't get nerfed into oblivion. My operative had burst, no knockbacks or charge, and therefore no purpose other than burst. See you on my jugg soon maybe, it was fun/scary to fight you as an operative before the nerf - Flutterspy

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Jugg only gets bigger numbers. requires much more 'set up' than operatives, and our burst is really predictable so any decent players can CC / knockback / get away from us

 

operatives open up from stealth and kill u while ur stunned. we cant do that, people can see guardians so they know theyre coming, so they can prepare and react accordingly. you cant react to operative b/c by the time they open on u, u are probably dead (if they use adrenal, relic

 

(cont.)

 

making previous 9~10k video as guardian is was really difficult for me. i had to pick out all 2~3 low lvls in the WZ, know where they are, know when they died (to calculate their res timer). make sure to pick up zerker buff when they HAPPENED to be around, and try to set up and execute my burst. more than half the time i fail and waste my adrenal b/c i get cc'ed or knockbacked by panicked crowd that try to stop me. then i had to wait another 3 minute to get a good crit in.

 

(cont)

 

on the other hand, making that same video as an operative would be easy as taking candy from a baby. its really easy to plan ahead while in stealth, pick out a gray in the crowd, pick up zerker and burst him with ur cd's completely unopposed.

 

oh the other hand, making 9k+ crit movie as guardian was hard as taking candy from US government

 

If hidden strike were an aoe that could do 10k buffed damage they might have a point.

[Treplos]

Looks like a lot of people are in denial and do not want to admit what they know, or see, despite the videos and screenshots, and the fact that those things happen a lot in warzones.

 

I don't care if you get nerfed or not, and this is not why I'm here. I do like to set the record straight though, because I hate double standards in principle.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Treplos

[Hoff]

Here's the exchange on youtube from an operative using this as evidence and the creator of the video responds:

 

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I have been using your videos as anecdotal evidence of why operative burst was fine. I could never break 7k, highest I could get is around 6.2. I was stacking crit/surge mods/enh w/ power adrenal. Currently leveling my Jugg and playing on my powertech in the hopes they don't get nerfed into oblivion. My operative had burst, no knockbacks or charge, and therefore no purpose other than burst. See you on my jugg soon maybe, it was fun/scary to fight you as an operative before the nerf - Flutterspy

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Jugg only gets bigger numbers. requires much more 'set up' than operatives, and our burst is really predictable so any decent players can CC / knockback / get away from us

 

operatives open up from stealth and kill u while ur stunned. we cant do that, people can see guardians so they know theyre coming, so they can prepare and react accordingly. you cant react to operative b/c by the time they open on u, u are probably dead (if they use adrenal, relic

 

(cont.)

 

making previous 9~10k video as guardian is was really difficult for me. i had to pick out all 2~3 low lvls in the WZ, know where they are, know when they died (to calculate their res timer). make sure to pick up zerker buff when they HAPPENED to be around, and try to set up and execute my burst. more than half the time i fail and waste my adrenal b/c i get cc'ed or knockbacked by panicked crowd that try to stop me. then i had to wait another 3 minute to get a good crit in.

 

(cont)

 

on the other hand, making that same video as an operative would be easy as taking candy from a baby. its really easy to plan ahead while in stealth, pick out a gray in the crowd, pick up zerker and burst him with ur cd's completely unopposed.

 

oh the other hand, making 9k+ crit movie as guardian was hard as taking candy from US government

 

 

 

That was me. Post-1.1 you don't have to get the expertise buffs anymore so setting up the smash is just as easy as it is on an operative. I now have an operative, jugg, and powertech at 50 and I can safely say that they are all easy to set up burst on. Operative is easily the most restrictive of the three and does the least damage.

 

Powertech simply incindiary missiles, thermal det, rail shot, then proceeds to spam flameburst hoping for rail shot procs. You pop cooldowns right before the incendiary missile goes off (plus they get +25% crit from a buff on top off adrenals/trinkets).

 

Operative must be in stealth and must make it to the target in stealth (not easy, takes a while if the target isn't standing still, the target must also be on the same z-axis, i.e. not on a catwalk). The operative then pops trinket/adrenal, acid blade/hidden strike, lacerate, debilitate for stun, take cover instantly and pop explosive probe, by now acid blade dot is gone so acid blade/backstab, then shiv, then laceration.

 

Juggernaut is the most flexible of the three. They can set up their burst on any target. The other two require setting up on the same target they intend to kill. A juggernaut makes for the perfect dps switcher because he can choke/crush one target and then force charge and smash the intended target. To set up juggernaut burst you simply choke/crush a target, charge (while popping adrenal/trinket), then smash. You can also force push, then charge, then smash. The juggernaut set bonus helps this even further by increasing the juggernaut's damage by 10% when he charges and also healing him for 8% health.

 

My hidden strike can barely break 4k now. I've seen plenty of juggernauts still able to break 7k. Hidden strike is harder to set up and isn't AoE. Hell, my powertech's rail shot hits harder than my hidden strike now and that's used every 5-6 seconds or so, has a 30 yard range, and doesn't require stealth.

 

 

TL;DR - If hidden strike was nerfed, smash needs to be nerfed. Juggernauts are the best burst target switchers in the game because their burst doesn't require them to set it up on the intended target first, making it really hard for healers to prepare for it. On top of that it's AoE, also making it hard on healers.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Hoff

[Treplos]

That was me. Post-1.1 you don't have to get the expertise buffs anymore so setting up the smash is just as easy as it is on an operative. I now have an operative, jugg, and powertech at 50 and I can safely say that they are all easy to set up burst on. Operative is easily the most restrictive of the three and does the least damage.

 

Powertech simply incindiary missiles, thermal det, rail shot, then proceeds to spam flameburst hoping for rail shot procs. You pop cooldowns right before the incendiary missile goes off (plus they get +25% crit from a buff on top off adrenals/trinkets).

 

Operative must be in stealth and must make it to the target in stealth (not easy, takes a while if the target isn't standing still, the target must also be on the same z-axis, i.e. not on a catwalk). The operative then pops trinket/adrenal, acid blade/hidden strike, lacerate, debilitate for stun, take cover instantly and pop explosive probe, by now acid blade dot is gone so acid blade/backstab, then shiv, then laceration.

 

Juggernaut is the most flexible of the three. They can set up their burst on any target. The other two require setting up on the same target they intend to kill. A juggernaut makes for the perfect dps switcher because he can choke/crush one target and then force charge and smash the intended target. To set up juggernaut burst you simply choke/crush a target, charge (while popping adrenal/trinket), then smash. You can also force push, then charge, then smash. The juggernaut set bonus helps this even further by increasing the juggernaut's damage by 10% when he charges and also healing him for 8% health.

 

My hidden strike can barely break 4k now. I've seen plenty of juggernauts still able to break 7k. Hidden strike is harder to set up and isn't AoE. Hell, my powertech's rail shot hits harder than my hidden strike now and that's used every 5-6 seconds or so, has a 30 yard range, and doesn't require stealth.

 

 

TL;DR - If hidden strike was nerfed, smash needs to be nerfed. Juggernauts are the best burst target switchers in the game because their burst doesn't require them to set it up on the intended target first, making it really hard for healers to prepare for it. On top of that it's AoE, also making it hard on healers.

 

Thank you. But you know what's funny? I do NOT like any class to feel the frustration that I feel on my operative. I do not think that a mistake of nerfing something that was not broken (or over-nerfing something that needed just a bit of toning down) is corrected by nerfing everyone else. 2 mistakes do not make a right.

 

I still feels ****** to know the the Devs have double standards.

 

The most logical and sensible thing for BW is to simply revert 2 of the damage reduction nerfs. The Jarring Strike nerf alone should be enough. But I know that BW does not do anything that is reasonable. I do not have faith in them anymore or in their approach to class balance.

[pherball]

TL;DR - If hidden strike was nerfed, smash needs to be nerfed. Juggernauts are the best burst target switchers in the game because their burst doesn't require them to set it up on the intended target first, making it really hard for healers to prepare for it. On top of that it's AoE, also making it hard on healers.

 

What's sad is that everything you have said is 100% accurate, and that it's going to be ignored.

Edited February 4, 2012 by pherball

[oblongship]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the bursts of ~5-6k aoe crit smashes with an immediate ~2-3k follow-up paired with damage reduction / invulnerability whatever it may be is not "working as intended" and "deviates from the norm."

 

There was another class people were complaining about not too long ago that was doing too much damage in a matter of seconds... whatever happened to them?

 

So why is this issue not being addressed in the patch notes? Fix the Rage tree / equivelant Jedi Knight tree ffs.

 

Didn't post his WoW arena credentials...sorry we can't take you seriously.

[Agroovesak]

My point is asking a class nerfed based on what damage it can put out with stimulants, and calling it a balanced fix, then ontop saying you should use biochem or you a noob is your idea of balance.

 

Bet you i can find a dozen other vids with people doing massive damage by use of stimulants/adrenaline and relic buffs.

 

Biochem barely increases your damage currently. Warzone adrenal is better for everything than the rakata adrenal. Only thing you get from biochem now is like 8 power and 30 main stat from rakata stims and they are nerfing that next patch.

 

And yes, you can find a dozen vids, and guess what? All those vids were used as reasons for OPs to get nerfed.

[Hoff]

Other than damage there are two major points I would like to refute that are constantly given with regards as to why operative/smuggler damage was nerfed.

 

1. "You can't see it coming so you can't stop it."

 

Yes you can. Sure, you might get opened up on once at the beginning of the WZ because you don't know the other team has stealthers, but after that, it's your own fault. On my operative after I see one stealther, I'm constantly watching out for them. It's akin to when playing dota/lol/hon against a jungler (who may or may not have stealth himself). You don't know EXACTLY where they are, but if you've played enough, you know when you are vulnerable and when they are most likely to strike. For example, if you get out of combat and have < 50% hp and you go to the back to heal up, you better be ready to be put on your *** by an operative.

 

Secondly, with the amount of BH/commando I see in every WZ I see it's appalling how few stealth scans I see going off. Seriously, that thing should almost be on cooldown 24/7 unless you're trying to save it for their vanish and they are already unstealthed.

Knocking an operative out of stealth completely destroys their burst.

 

Lastly, even if they do manage to open on you, you can simply trinket or survive the initial stunlock and laugh when you knock them off a ledge, because now they have to spend 30+ seconds doing 0 DPS or very minimal DPS. The operative has to make a choice, do paltry ranged DPS now, or run back, sacrificing dps in the hopes that when he gets there he can make up for it.

 

2. "You can see a juggernaut coming, so you can stop it."

 

In a 1v1 situation, this is simply untrue. They can either wait till you stun them and then trinket. Wait till you stun them, then start their burst. They can mez you. They can knock you on your *** while simultaneously resetting their 15s charge cooldown.

 

In a group pvp situation you might get someone to cc him for you, but as mentioned before, he can CC you as well or their teammates might CC you. Good juggernauts wont miss their smash unless the stars align and someone knocks the juggernaut back right as he is smashing.

 

Even without stealth, you can't always see the smash coming. Due to the nature of how smash is buffed on the juggernaut and not on the intended target, he can simply decide to force charge the guy on the catwalk 30m away that he isn't fighting and smash him. Hell, for that matter, he could wait until he sees a BH/Sorc use their knockback and charge them when they're SoL. Having a 15s 30 yard charge, a 60s knockdown that resets said charge, a 20s 30 yard friendly charge, and a 15s 10 yard charge gives a juggernaut a million and one ways to keep their dps on a target.

 

 

 

 

 

With that being said. If you negate an operative's stealth or knock him off a ledge his DPS drops DRASTICALLY and they can only vanish every 2 minutes to set up the burst again. If you manage to stop a smash, guess what? He can do it again in < 30 seconds.

 

I really don't want to nerf juggernauts. They feel like one of the most balanced classes in the game. I'm fine with burst that takes a little time to set up, even if it can't be avoided easily. What I'm not fine with is the fact that operatives now don't have burst, sustained damage, nor any utility other than a complete joke of a skill called infiltrate (seriously, *** is with that useless skill, maybe if it lasted 60s or more it might be useful). Every class in the game has more CC than an operative. Every melee class in the game has more mobility than an operative. A shadowstep like ability would do wonders for this class, as would a slight buff to sustained damage (make lacerate +30% crit damage instead of sever tendon possibly).

 

Lastly, before anyone mentions it: Until lethality gets a way to generate TA reliably, gets some sort of energy reduction, and get's some way of preventing dispells, it isn't a viable alternative. It takes too long to set up, requires too much energy, and is easily dispelled with 1 GCD. The damage is great and reminds me a lot of a powertech pyrotech, but just doesn't work in its current form. Operative healing is also a joke compared to BH and Sorc, but I'll leave that for another discussion as this one seems focused on damage.

 

 

TL;DR - Operative burst can be avoided, nobody uses stealth scan. Juggernaut burst isn't as easy to avoid as people would like you to believe. Simple knockbacks destroy operative DPS uptime. Juggernauts have a ton of ways to get back into the fight to keep their DPS on target while still doing more burst than an Operative while also being AoE. Lethality sucks, operatives need more sustained damage and mobility.

[RealAeiouy]

Coming from a Scoundrel, and a DAoC player. If you are panning your camera constantly and aware of what's around the backstab is easily avoidable. Most stealthers in this game will stealth within range, and you'll know where they were, and what direction they were heading. The maps are small, it's not that hard.

 

It's not your fault we're playing a Fisher Price MMO and you can still be functional while standing still and nuking all day long. Learn to kite, learn to pre-kite, and keep on the move.

 

Once rated BG's come out ya'll are going to have to learn to play for real.

 

Also, defendable was the word you were looking for.

 

Lol wut. This is one of the craziest things I have ever read. You are able to track every stealth class on the map?

 

I hope you read your post and realize how crazy it sounds. Having played lots of stealth classes in lots of games I don't care what you do with your camera you will not be aware of me targetting you unless it is in the middle of an open field with less than three other people.

[Noax]

All the crying for nerfs is getting so out of hand.

 

Juggernaut is the most flexible of the three. They can set up their burst on any target. The other two require setting up on the same target they intend to kill. A juggernaut makes for the perfect dps switcher because he can choke/crush one target and then force charge and smash the intended target. To set up juggernaut burst you simply choke/crush a target, charge (while popping adrenal/trinket), then smash. You can also force push, then charge, then smash. The juggernaut set bonus helps this even further by increasing the juggernaut's damage by 10% when he charges and also healing him for 8% health.

 

The 8% heal from the set bonus is only when you charge to a FRIENDLY target. Makes me wonder if you even have a level 50 jugg / guardian, but reading comprehansion is a hard thing for most people on the forums.

 

Mean my sorcs chain lightning only hits for 2-4k at best... i cant understand why slam is so punishing but then maybe thats by design.

 

Smash has a 15 second cooldown (talented 12 seconds), chain lightning has 6 seconds cooldown. You can do chain lightning TWICE in the time a warrior can do smash a second time. So your actual 'AoE' damage is 4k-8k are we going to cry for a nerf about this too?

 

Arnt you a marauder?

 

We are talking about Guardians/Jugs

 

Ignorance is bliss? Rage is the shard tree that both Juggernauts & Marauders get. Same for republic versions.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwLo3st0rqg

 

Movies as 'evidence' that sure is a good way of getting accurate info [end sarcasm].

For those who actually pay attention to detail:

- The enemies being fought in the movie have 13k health (tanks excepted offcourse) meaning they hardly / dont have any pvp gear.

- The one who made the movie is someone who is in full battlemaster gear.

- Stacking of buffs most of the time to get the high crits doesnt mean the skill is OPed, it just shows that bioware has to fix the stacking of buffs.

 

The only way you get a more or less 'accurate' view of how things go is if you get a movie of a whole warzone fight. Picking the no-pvp geared players out of the enemy team and recording the damage you do against them all the time and then showing it in a movie is in no way representative of how good or bad a class is in pvp.

 

Smash has a 12 second cooldown that when stacked with buffs and going for no-pvp geared players can get you 7k Smashes, now lets quickly see what other classes can do in those 12 seconds damage wise:

- Sorcerers can cast chain lightning (6 sec cooldown, 2k-4k) twice doing a total of 4k-8k damage (AoE).

- bounty hunters / troopers can spam their 'rotation' and get anywhere from 10k - 20k+ damage (depending on crits) (tracer x 3 -> unload -> heatseaker missle -> rail shot can do this in +- 6 seconds)

- operatives even though they got nerfed they can still do 7k+ damage in the first 4-6 seconds, admitted sith warriors / jedi knights can have an easier time to finish the targets off compared to operatives after that initial burst.

 

If i made a movie only showing how smash fails to work if you try and use it on a running target or get knocked back while using it for 11+ minutes does that mean sith warriors / jedi knights will get a buff on smash?

Also id like to add the first line of my signature: PVP is a lie, there is only expertise.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Noax

[RealAeiouy]

People need to stop with the Warzone videos, they are worthless. Setting up duels where all gear and buffs are known in advance is the only legitimate way to convey such information.

 

Warzone videos are worthless in terms of providing worthwhile information for analysis.

[mufutiz]

If a random dude says nerf it. Im in, lets nerf it

 

agreed

Edited February 4, 2012 by mufutiz

[astrolite]

Smash has a 12 second cooldown that when stacked with buffs and going for no-pvp geared players can get you 7k Smashes, now lets quickly see what other classes can do in those 12 seconds damage wise:

- Sorcerers can cast chain lightning (6 sec cooldown, 2k-4k) twice doing a total of 4k-8k damage (AoE).

- bounty hunters / troopers can spam their 'rotation' and get anywhere from 10k - 20k+ damage (depending on crits) (tracer x 3 -> unload -> heatseaker missle -> rail shot can do this in +- 6 seconds)

- operatives even though they got nerfed they can still do 7k+ damage in the first 4-6 seconds, admitted sith warriors / jedi knights can have an easier time to finish the targets off compared to operatives after that initial burst.

 

You're comparing something with a 12 second cooldown to damage people can do within 12 seconds? What else are they doing in those 12 seconds? You know that is such a b.s. comparison.

[Anatlos]

Yet I still deuce on Guardians/Juggernauts. Huh!

 

That's gross, sir. I don't appreciate having that on my corpse's chest.

[Treplos]

I just went against a Guardian and I wanted to further test their damage, just to check the all Guardian/Juggs' claim over here that they do not do much damage other than Smash.

 

So, I stood there healing myself (my heals are 1.9s cast and do 2k - 3.5k crits normally, 1600-2500 crit with Trauma Buff), just to test their damage output. Needless to say I could not outheal his damage, as this Guardian was often critting me for 2k-2.5k dmg with his abilities (not counting Smash). Not to mention the many types of CCs he threw at me.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Treplos

[Zarthorn]

Fix our other DPS tree and Tanking tree to actually be useful in PVP then you can nerf Focus Bombing all you want.

[Dillingor]

I just went against a Guardian and I wanted to further test their damage, just to check the all Guardian/Juggs' claim over here that they do not do much damage other than Smash.

 

So, I stood there healing myself (my heals are 1.9s cast and do 2k - 3.5k crits normally, 1600-2500 crit with Trauma Buff), just to test their damage output. Needless to say I could not outheal his damage, as this Guardian was often critting me for 2k-2.5k dmg with his abilities (not counting Smash). Not to mention the many types of CCs he threw at me.

 

 

Judging by the small heals you're throwing, I'd have to say you probably lack a decent amount of expertise gear. I'm going to go ahead and figure the guy hitting you has lots, which is probably why you're getting wrecked.

 

You guys need to stop fudging numbers whether on purpose or otherwise. There's more to it than just "OMG JUGG OWNED ME NERF NOW!!!"

 

Juggs are a slow hitting one trick pony, its supposed to do a lot of dmg. This is coming from a level 50 merc healer, I should add.

[Seanimus]

rage juggs that stack power and surge hit hard, that is all.

[Laoi]

I went Focus for a day to try the infamous 5k crit.

 

NEVER saw one. Best was a steadyaverage of 3k IF and thats a MAJOR IF

 

I got the combo off.

 

Very quickly smart pvp'ers recognize a focus guardian and immediately when you go to leap to them they shut you down so you can't sweep. You also dont have all the defense you are whining about in this spec.

 

It's probably the easiest mechanic to see and notice and stop - and everyone does this.

 

I respec'd back to defense/vigilince because doing mediocre damage and not having defense was even worse than just being a support class in pvp.

 

Seriously - research before you whine, or play a class and see for yourself.

 

if u cant get the 5k crit on a focus knight then ur doing something wrong. my guildie could pull them off quite frequently at lvl 40.

[Treplos]

Judging by the small heals you're throwing, I'd have to say you probably lack a decent amount of expertise gear. I'm going to go ahead and figure the guy hitting you has lots, which is probably why you're getting wrecked.

 

You guys need to stop fudging numbers whether on purpose or otherwise. There's more to it than just "OMG JUGG OWNED ME NERF NOW!!!"

 

Juggs are a slow hitting one trick pony, its supposed to do a lot of dmg. This is coming from a level 50 merc healer, I should add.

 

 

I've got 515 expertise: 4 parts BM gear / 2 Cent / 1 Rakata / 1 Columni / rest Champ gear. I am a DPS spec Concealment Operative, and I was simply trying to test the claims that Guards/Juggs do not have much DPS outside Smash. With this same gear I got hit for 5,500 Smash btw.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Treplos

[Barzarel]

You're defending proven insanely high burst paired with heavy armor and utiltiy. How is that balanced 1v1?

 

Considering the fact:

 

1. Our armor is debuffable, even with several stacks from different players.

 

2. We don't really have much in turns of CC vs. other dps classes have in our burst tree.

 

3. We have very little survivability in our burst tree, aside from using tanking stance, which will dump our damage and rage built.

 

4. Survivability migitations pretty much limited to Saberward(which has limited effect since defense rating will only migitate against most basic attacks, when there a small force and tech damage reduction, then we get our 30% max health borrowed HP which will kill us instantly after its use if we get below what we had before it, so basically borrowed HP, which both on a fairly medium sized cooldown.

 

Considering we don't really have the utilities that most pure dps classes do, dumping our one our only real burst damage, which 1. needs built up 2. is possible to counter just seems taking it to the extremes, and will make the talent tree close to worthless to even consider using.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Barzarel

[Bellatrix]

I see alot of heavy armor doesn't count for anything etc etc.

 

Well then how about medium/light armor, yeah it's worse don't try to spin that heavy armor is worse somehow.

 

And the tank tree it doesn't realy offer "uber" protection over the dps trees, sure you got invincibility, 4% shield proc etc etc. Nothing "REALY" big, most of the survivability comes from the items (Tank gear vs Dps gear).

 

And the biggest migation tool, is not even in the tank tree and thats the tank stance.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Bellatrix

[Kelticfury]

Those stars seem to align quite often! END OF DA WORLD!?!?!?!

 

The Mayans predicted this. It is 2012 after all.

[ImSaved]

Anyone who says armor doesn't matter in this game is oblivious. Since the Scoundrel / Operative armor penetration nerf I don't even bother opening up on most heavily armored targets because the damage is a complete joke. I honestly don't believe I could get a tank to 75% before his teammates ran me into the ground. Not saying it's overpowered, but it definitely matters.