Zooce Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 As has been proved by testing and posted on here before, defense, shield, absorption etc.. the tank stats on tanking armor (including the tanking PVP armor strangely) don't really have an effect in PVP apart from on a minor part of typical DPS (typical higher DPS skills do not pay attention to these stats). This makes it difficult to play a pure tank role in PVP as we're not that much less squishy than any other class. Could I ask that this is looked at? Not wanting to be overpowered, how about they work as just a % of what they would at PVE? Tanks should last a bit longer compared with their non-tank buddies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Not until something happens to guard. Right now PVP "tanking" is all about one passive soul link ability. As long as Guard exists the way it is tanks can't have significantly move survivability than anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Not until something happens to guard. Right now PVP "tanking" is all about one passive soul link ability. As long as Guard exists the way it is tanks can't have significantly move survivability than anyone else. Sure they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avip Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 http://www.torhead.com/ability/dtjFr6u/guard The defense stats wouldn't even make a difference for guard unless you are being a tard and hitting the tank instead of what he is guarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fdzzaigl Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Not until something happens to guard. Right now PVP "tanking" is all about one passive soul link ability. As long as Guard exists the way it is tanks can't have significantly move survivability than anyone else. Why not? Because that would add more strategic play to PvP? Seriously, a whole set of stats have little to no effect and tanks die just as fast as DPS, that does not compute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 http://www.torhead.com/ability/dtjFr6u/guard The defense stats wouldn't even make a difference for guard unless you are being a tard and hitting the tank instead of what he is guarding. As it stands now, hitting some tanks instead of his guarded player is the better strat. You can burst him down fairly well due to lack of adequate defenses, and eliminate one of them.. Exception is of course if the one's a healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taunque Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Guard doesn't mitigate any damage on the tank. 2 dps can still burn down a tank even if the healer manages to get a few heals off between cc's. The only function Guard serves is that it changes the kill order from "healer-dps-tank" to "tank-healer-dps." Working as intended. Yukishiro simply can't wrap his head around this concept so he goes on an on about it in every thread about Guard. Ignore him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiranK Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) You're not allowed to have a role AND be a good at it at the same time. I'm sorry, can you please explain why I can't be good at my role? No one said you HAVE to attack the tank, but even if you did, tanks aren't any harder to kill than a DPS class. Since they can't really shield or block your attacks, you can just burn them down and then attack the target they were guarding. It makes them a meat shield, not an actual tank. Sorry, if you get to be an actual DPS, we should get to be actual tanks too, not just an under DPSed, glorified speed bump. Edited January 30, 2012 by KiranK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkfrey Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I'm sorry, can you please explain why I can't be good at my role? No one said you HAVE to attack the tank, but even if you did, tanks aren't any harder to kill than a DPS class. Since they can't really shield or block your attacks, you can just burn them down and then attack the target they were guarding. It makes them a meat shield, not an actual tank. Sorry, if you get to be an actual DPS, we should get to be actual tanks too, not just an under DPSed, glorified speed bump. You can't be good at your role, as you introduced an element of gameplay that idiots can't ignore and tunnel down the healer. Until they get their muliplier damage - so you take 150% of total damage, and or - some other stupidity that allows them to keep drooling on their keyboard with success... then they will fight their hardest against allowing tanks survival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodguard Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Same reason ops cannot be good at their role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Lets be honest.... Bio has this odd idea that every class should almost equal out in terms of DPS... the only thing that changes in there vision... is Damage Cycles. Meaning Op is Front loaded Assassin is back loaded... Merc is mostly flat... ect. However if they are all speced for DPS they should about equal out as far as potential DPS goes. (This is Bios vision for TOR PvP). Now assuming that is the way they intend it too stay... in NO way can the games tanks become super tanks in PvP... unless they take a massive dmg reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goulet Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 defensive bonuses dont apply to reduce any of the damage transferred by guard, i can't put guard on someone and get an absorb or defense proc that causes me to take any less damage then the person guarded receives. Nor is it lessened by armor. but havent they said their looking into defensive contribution particularly for tank types in pvp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olagaton Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I second the OP. Tanking/damage sponge should be as valid a role as a DPSer or Healer. In addition, while I think that tanking should not be overpowered, I do feel that a defensive stacked build should function just as effectively as a max spec'd DPS class or Healer class. DPS classes do not have a cap on their DPS, with respect to the quality of their weapon. Tank classes should have a reasonably high cap on their potential defensive capabilities (not 100%, but fairly high), given the sacrifice to other stats and DPS they are giving up to obtain such. That is a rather fair request given that some of the highest DPS/healer classes have high DPS, with very little sacrifice to their survivability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 but havent they said their looking into defensive contribution particularly for tank types in pvp? Not that I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Lets be honest.... Bio has this odd idea that every class should almost equal out in terms of DPS... the only thing that changes in there vision... is Damage Cycles. Meaning Op is Front loaded Assassin is back loaded... Merc is mostly flat... ect. However if they are all speced for DPS they should about equal out as far as potential DPS goes. (This is Bios vision for TOR PvP). Now assuming that is the way they intend it too stay... in NO way can the games tanks become super tanks in PvP... unless they take a massive dmg reduction. Tanks really don't do that much damage in PvP, well, in tank-spec and with tank-gear that is. Right now there's no reason to wear tank gear in PvP, so 90% of the time you see someone guarding someone else they're not really a tank. With a DPS spec I usually get closer to 350k damage, tank spec w/ tank gear it's closer to 150k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdownsb Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Guard doesn't mitigate any damage on the tank. 2 dps can still burn down a tank even if the healer manages to get a few heals off between cc's. The only function Guard serves is that it changes the kill order from "healer-dps-tank" to "tank-healer-dps." Working as intended. Yukishiro simply can't wrap his head around this concept so he goes on an on about it in every thread about Guard. Ignore him. I don't know what you or most of the people in this thread are smoking but even though the "shield" for tanks only applies to non-tech/force/elemental attacks the tanks are still significantly more difficult to kill then non-tanks. Also, if you're killing people in the order of tank > healer > dps you have some seriously terrible healers floating around. A tank with a free casting healer will lol through several people as the DPS kills them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Tanks really don't do that much damage in PvP, well, in tank-spec and with tank-gear that is. Right now there's no reason to wear tank gear in PvP, so 90% of the time you see someone guarding someone else they're not really a tank. With a DPS spec I usually get closer to 350k damage, tank spec w/ tank gear it's closer to 150k. Sure tell that too my tank Sin... 200k+ easily every match (300k if I feel like just running around screwing people up)... 60-80k in guarding numbers.... 3 or 4 deaths, mainly because my guard target is running a ball or something. I have seen powertech / Vans running around that I could beat on and crit for 2 or 3k a couple times in a row and still not take down... all while they pump out 300k in total dmg. Sorry anytime I hear X class doesn't do dmg I notice X class top a warzone chart at some point. Yes as per Bios design every class has the potential too do the same amount of total dmg... no giving the tank guys a much higher defense number in a passive way would not be good. Yes we would take out tank spec them half and half wear DPS slanted gear and roll, it would be a complete joke. IMO anyway The fact that shields do very little in PvP is fine... they still help somewhat and they self balance.... Sin tanks are more defense based but they also wear bumped up light armour for a lower mitigation number... Trooper BH and Jedi sith tanks are all heavy armour get more mitigation but have a lower defensive number with a higher base shield number.... Bottom line is all 3 tank classes have pretty equal defensive numbers in the end. Edited January 30, 2012 by Husanak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Sure tell that too my tank Sin... 200k+ easily every match (300k if I feel like just running around screwing people up)... 60-80k in guarding numbers.... 3 or 4 deaths, mainly because my guard target is running a ball or something. I have seen powertech / Vans running around that I could beat on and crit for 2 or 3k a couple times in a row and still not take down... all while they pump out 300k in total dmg. Sorry anytime I hear X class doesn't do dmg I notice X class top a warzone chart at some point. Yes as per Bios design every class has the potential too do the same amount of total dmg... no giving the tank guys a much higher defense number in a passive way would not be good. Yes we would take out tank spec them half and half wear DPS slanted gear and roll, it would be a complete joke. IMO anyway If they're doing 300k, then they're not wearing tank gear, or not tank specced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OdamanPrime Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Here's a pro tip to make quick work of guard..... aoe =p then you're doing 150% dmg to the tank. Either way, stats should work... otherwise take them off the pvp gear and replace them with something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Sure tell that too my tank Sin... 200k+ easily every match (300k if I feel like just running around screwing people up)... 60-80k in guarding numbers.... 3 or 4 deaths, mainly because my guard target is running a ball or something. I have seen powertech / Vans running around that I could beat on and crit for 2 or 3k a couple times in a row and still not take down... all while they pump out 300k in total dmg. Sorry anytime I hear X class doesn't do dmg I notice X class top a warzone chart at some point. Yes as per Bios design every class has the potential too do the same amount of total dmg... no giving the tank guys a much higher defense number in a passive way would not be good. Yes we would take out tank spec them half and half wear DPS slanted gear and roll, it would be a complete joke. IMO anyway If a pure tank were capable of as much damage as a pure DPS then there'd be no reason to bring a DPS in PvE, just bring 3 tanks and a healer. Slow Time-spam has only netted me around 150k damage as a Shadow-tank, close to 200k, once. In moderate PvP gear and more than half was DPS gear. I imagine a pure-DPS BM geared Shadow-Tank could get close to 300k, otherwise calling your bluff. 300k is A LOT of damage for a tank. 300k can be rough for a pure DPS class to pull off unless they've got high-end gear. Highest damage I've ever seen from a tank was 255k and they had full BM gear as a Knight. Most of them seem to end the game at 80-120k. Edited January 30, 2012 by savionen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 If they're doing 300k, then they're not wearing tank gear, or not tank specced. http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/sith_inquisitor/assassin/#::ef4efef6efef3efce3fe10fef2df16 There's my fav build right now... your right I'm only 27 points deep into the tank tree... and ya I'm 50/50 tank gear... I carry a shield cause ya it still helps I even hit dark charge when I am fighting a few classes that will hit base attacks when low on power ect. The tank gear I do have has Defense on it... cause yes Defense chance is still a great stat in PvP no matter what anyone says... everything else has crit and surge on it. 200k is a pretty easy number for any class to hit from what I have seen. 300k is doable if you ignore objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/sith_inquisitor/assassin/#::ef4efef6efef3efce3fe10fef2df16 There's my fav build right now... your right I'm only 27 points deep into the tank tree... and ya I'm 50/50 tank gear... I carry a shield cause ya it still helps I even hit dark charge when I am fighting a few classes that will hit base attacks when low on power ect. The tank gear I do have has Defense on it... cause yes Defense chance is still a great stat in PvP no matter what anyone says... everything else has crit and surge on it. 200k is a pretty easy number for any class to hit from what I have seen. 300k is doable if you ignore objectives. 200k maybe if you're in BM going against people in Cent or lower.... I get maybe 150k a game on average, and that's as Champ Vs mostly champs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyGremlin Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Why not? Because that would add more strategic play to PvP? Seriously, a whole set of stats have little to no effect and tanks die just as fast as DPS, that does not compute. just trying to help Tactics is the word you want http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy "In military usage strategy is distinct from tactics, which are concerned with the conduct of an engagement, while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evuke Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) /signed, why do they have absorption/defense etc on pvp gear when those stats don't do ANYTHING in pvp. Edited January 30, 2012 by Evuke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 aoe's work best, that way the tank is taking twice the damage. Say it depends on how many are attacking the tank+healer, and what classes... I've been witha healer that could easily keep up with the weak AoE being thrown at us. Not to mention a lot of AoE is easy to move out of before it goes off(Especially BH/Trooper's delayed mortar/DFA) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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