They also did it to maxed out characters as well. I quit when I permanently lost my Day 1 name on a Maxed Shadow.

Sorry - but I'm forced to go to Ilum if I want to keep up with the rest of the player base. Daily. I know you seem to be able to forget this slight detail - but if I want to stay competetive, in your blinkered world view of how things should be - I AM FORCED TO IF I DON'T WANT TO BE LEFT BEHIND. And it won't be an "either/or" option. It will be do Arena, get X, do rated WZ, get Y. Both will be cumulative with the other. Keep throwing your tantrums though. You're a shining beacon as to why people don't want WoW style Arena. If Arena wasn't about the "gear", I'd be well in favour of it. I played LoL a lot, loved that. Playing competetively was NEVER about getting a permanent advantage over weaker players. But - you know, keep on whining for your gear upgrades. I want a field that invites skill, not who can grind the most. Maybe that's because I can't sit at the computer all day every day.

Again - I've no qualms with closed box PvP. I just really dislike the idea of having improved gearing from it. For reasons that I've clearly explained. I also dislike the fact that Comps become so important (in low man setups), because it's practically impossible to balance around a 2v2 and not easy to balance around a 3v3. If we had 4v4 and 8v8 setups, that'd be a start in the right place, but WoW's model really got it wrong. And I don't consider - his - saying that people who explain why Arena failed actually means that they failed at performing in Arena, acceptable as a "polite or valid" response to a valid complaint. There are valid arguements against Arena - and it's something that many didn't enjoy because of HOW WoW set it up, and especially against Arena made in the likeness of the WoW model. I loved GW's arena. The focus however, was a far cry from WoW's. I personally didn't like it, because I felt like I HAD to do it to keep up with PvE gearing for competetive raiding. I didn't like the fact that again - gear became important for PvP. Sorry but - from playing UO/SWG/GW (and to a lesser extent FFXI's Ballista), gear was a relative non issue - for different reasons. We've enough of a gear disparity between fresh 50's and fully Champed out people, that it's already dissauding some, even though it's relatively easy to bridge that gap, further inncreasing it, isn't a good idea imo, and not ONE person has been able to justifty that power creep.

You're going to start being rude? That's a joke. You started being rude in your opening post. It was being rude about PvE players, whom, you're still being rude about. And a whine. About needing more gear. Rude and a whiner. And we're supposed to think you know what's best for the bulk of the player base? God help us all.

Honestly, could care less if people got the best gear from regular WZ's. I don't feel the need to have better gear to win. We don't need that seperation. For several reasons - but the most important one is that - PvP has been suprisingly popular on this game. Much much more so than on other MMO's percentage wise. That means it appeals to casuals as well as more competetive sorts. When you grasp the ramifications of this, I'll later in this post link it back to something else I said. And I think reinforcing the gap between bad and competetive - with gear, is a woeful idea. If you're good enough to get recognised on your server as a decent player, getting gear that makes you even stronger just seems to be an unfair advantage, because at the end of the day, what you're asking for is competition - why do you need "rated onry" gear to be able to compete? Having listened to Gabe speaking in an interview with TotalBiscuit, I believe he was saying how they didn't like making abilities work one way in PvP, and another in PvE, and that they were trying to avoid that wherever possible. Now - if that inference was correct, what you've said above, isn't going to happen. So introducing Arena's which are basically a copy of WoW's system, will have all the same inherent problems that WoW had, only with the inexperience of Bioware's PvP team's added funzies (and I think they've made some excellent things in this game, but - there are also some glaring things which most sensible people will acknowledge were out of whack). See - Ilum for reference. Arena, comes with a slew of problems of it's own, when you take the WoW model. 1: PvE's are forced to grind Arena for things. In this game, be that mods or weapons or what not. If Arena was purely for Vanity gear, like really nicely designed gear that didn't make me look like a Jedi Hobo. Sure. A super Speeder that was shiny, Also - fine. However - I hated having to grind for PvP gear, so supplement PvE gear on WoW (you remember how Arena weapons were superiors to 25man, but were not equal to 25man HM - so in a progression guild you HAD to grind Arena to get them). Despised it. Which - would be a consequence of implementing the "best" weapons in PvP, because base damage still matters. Sadly. 2: Segregates the population. By this, I mean - it becomes a case of have and have nots. What we have right now - is a system that while the first few days, white - there's frequently a massive gear disparity between the majority of freshly dinged 50's, and people running around in Champ gear, that gap can be closed relatively quickly. And then everyone is on a fairly level playing field, where skill is the only true division between players. You don't need gear progression to compete. 3: Lastly, from my perspective at least, is seeing the inevitable fallout from PvE players, because they feel like they're being balanced due to PvP (because balancing around Arena is a pain in the arse to do). Again, this has been spoken in depth by the WoW team, and others. It's adding in, more recipe for hard work, and people screaming. Your "arena" can't be balanced easily around small groups. I'm not against a form of Arena being added. I'm against the WoW model being used here. Because I think it will do more harm than good. There's a HUGE difference, and people saying I'm just parroting, are tools. Because they just want their shiny gear, without grasping the consequences. If you want WoW's Arena, play WoW. I do want something here to differentiate between casual, and competetive, but not in terms of power levels. Because - it's own problems, and increasing power creep is one of the glut of them. Sunshine, there are some comps out there that when the right mods from PvE have been put into the right gear from PvP, utterly destroy other setups. Now, I think I'm about average skill, and have trounced some of what are regarded as the best on my server from the other side, with those setups in small skirmish fights. Like 3v8. Just because we had the "best" setup. Sure, most players will never reach that skillcap. I know I won't either. But - already, I'm seeing setups that will break pretty much anything other than their exact mirror, at lower skill levels. And there are a few comps out there, that are low skill required to trounce. It will become comp fest all over again. And that - I didn't like in WoW either. And no - I've read what was written fully on the interview by the WoW team, and had my own interpretations of the consequences, and see many of the same problems they had there, coming here, if the model is followed. I'd be delighted to have "High Competetion Gear" that made me look better than everyone else, even if it had the same stats. Bling, in effect. The idea of getting that extra power level, to compound a difference in skill, seems pointless, short of trouncing even weaker people. Bullying if you will. I like my fights to be, remotely, on the same playing field - even when my opposing number calls me names when we battle on the field. Going back to power creeping, which I touched on earlier, the more you can stave off power creeping, you can increase the longevity of a game. This has been a problem that has affected most MMO style games, going back to MUD's. The more you can keep the content from growing in sheer power, but relying on diversity and vanity to keep players coming back, the more people are interested in joining in. Which, introducing the best gear only for a certain cadre, goes totally against.

I like PvP. What I don't like, is this "need" to get better gear from Arena. It's like - why do you *have* to get better gear solely from Arena. Why can't you have the same gear, and just proev you're better through skill alone? Why must the *best* gear ONLY come from Deathmatching, which to be frank, I don't find the ebodiment of skill (however, I do find it very commonplace in WZ's because most children don't have the patience to focus on a goal, and must herp derp for kills, because that shows skill - no?). Why when Blizzard have admitted that Arena was the biggest mistake they made, do you insist on copying it's mistakes? Having the best gear from Arena only forces people to do arena. It's a case of keeping up with the Joneses. And to be honest, you're wrong about comps. Some comps will wreck most (if not all) others, assuming equal skill. People on TOR PvP. In much larger numbers than Bioware expected, do you know why though? It's actually kind of good and relatively well balanced. Sure - there's a few hybrid specs that should be whack-a-moled, because they are too strong, but for the most part, things aren't BAD. Ilum, that's another story. It's a joke. It's a bad joke at that. The only thing I really agree with you on, is the notion that PvP'ers shouldn't be forced to PVE to get decent gear. The mods on the gearing right now are a joke, and some of the set bonuses are laughable too. Trying to repeat the same inane stupidity of WoW Arena and gearing up is laughable though. That's not the way forwards. Have Arena, sure - but don't make it so that it's the *only* way to gear up best in PvP. That way, lies the same flaws as WoW Arena, and that was a joke.

My main - is 31/0/10 Shadow. Tank spec, in fact - probably what people would consider a PvE tank spec too. I'm considered on my server to be a competent (not the best by any margin, but halfway competent, or decent depending on who you ask) PvP tank (although my opponents constantly call me a baddie, mostly in anger when I find the weak link and exploit it - causing rage). I roll in tank gear, and to be honest, waiting patiently for more tokens to drop to start being able to swap DPS mods over for straight tanking gear. Short of expertise - the stuff I do, to survive, isn't based around the mods in my armour. It's about the abilities I use, and the timing of them. In fact, had I been rolling in PvP DPS gear, or remodded from the off, I'd be rocking it. Tanking gear is pretty much pointless in PvP. And I have abilities to back me up. For those BH/Troopies/Man_Jugs/Knights - it's worse. Yeah - we can arse around with people's abilities to burn down a healer, but short of that, we're meh 90% of the time - in tank gear. We're ignorable - there's nothing to us that presents any form of challenge. It's only our limited reputations that make people focus us. And with adding in, cross server loligans, we're going to be focused even less. And I've fought against many of what are considered the "best" of our opponents, and they're not thinking I'm that good - in fact even my own side wonder how I've earned a reputation as beig decent after duelling me. Mostly, because I'm squishy as a dps, although with A SINGLE GCD's worth of health, except I do far less damage. Bioware - dropped the ball on this one. Tanks, aren't comparable with dps, or healers in PvP. We add an element, that if our team can work around - makes us viable, because of the abilities we bring, but we're only really an *asset* when we're rolling the DPS gear, or tank gear with DPS mods.

Your design is crap. Let me restate this: "Your design of Ilum and it's goals are crap." So, perspective time. The fact that Armaments ONLY spawn in one single small area, means the side with the most people, wins. Which - means, the already winning side, continues to win further. Meaning you keep pushing the wedge ever further into the gap, forcing it to spread more and more. Even WoW, which I dislike as a game, knew better than this. They helped the weaker side to try and get things in even kilter. They didn't really succeed, but at least they realised about snowballing, and tried to balance it. You lazy bums just reinforce the gap. Weirdly - even though we're outnumbered on this server, and OUTGEARED because of your epic fail system that favours the larger faction, WZ's actually feel like their a fairly even match mostly. While repetetive and can be boring - the fact that they can be won on a "level" playing field - makes the game, well, seem balanced in that regards. However, go to Ilum, which while I'm aware we're not "forced" to, to maintain the effective gap, and try and prevent it from widening further... we have to. We're stuck going back into the meat grinder JUST to stop the gap growing to a point where every single person we face is vastly better equipped than we are. Regardless of faction, this is TERRIBLE design. Atrocious. Appalling. In fact, words cannot express how much this "design" shows that you don't have the faintest first clue about balancing. If you *have* to keep Armaments in there, spread them over the zone between at least South/Central/North - so that a small roaming group, won't have to face 3x+ their number just to attempt to complete the daily. By small roaming group, I mean FULL DAMNED OPS GROUP.

Firstly, it takes an "Exceptional" game as a pure tank, to get these 97 medals people are referring to - that *DRAGS* on. The kind of game where I might pull 3-4 MVP's from playing like a star, I'll get 1+ (sometimes) 3K defender medals, maybe the 10k defended in one life (so another 3), and 1-3 medals for kills. So seven in total. Nine if I've farmed up a Shockfrozen and had a situation where using it is effective (rarely). Sometimes on Alderaan, I don't even make 3k Defender, as I'll be either sitting on the wall, making sure I can defend either Mid/Side or running underneath, yanking people off and locking them out from guard/healing away from their team-mates on a L/R split - as people yell out incomings. Huttball, I get even less - sometimes only getting the Protection medals, since I'm not trying to deathmatch, aren't doing damage due to being carrier and am trying to play "objectively". I REGULARLY see DD's pulling out more medals than I do (although sometimes - I get those rare games when I shine and come out glowing with badges, I did an 11 badge game twice in ALL of the games I've played, and a 13 once when Shockwater was in regular play), because they can do many of them with ease. My 2.5k hit. Once in a blue moon. 5k hit, never ever. 1v1 kill, rarely (although a fraction more frequently than 2.5k hit), 300k damage done? AHAHAHAHA - not even close. I think my best game EVER - was around 200k (and even that might be - imagined to be better than I have). It's WORSE for healers though, a pure healer, who doesn't have the ability/time to dps - will ONLY get 4 medals as it stands. 2.5k heal, 5k heal, 75k healing and 300k healing. Four medals, and some jumped up DD feels threatened because potentially they can earn more than him? Cry me a river. If you're a DD, and not getting the defending medals in Alderaan, then you're farming away from the towers normally (this is your own fault). If you're getting the medals, but no action, then I'm genuinely empathise with you - I've experienced this many times myself. Being sat at a turret with nothing to do. Or sat at a door, and no one rushed it while I guarded it solo. I've come out of some games, with 2 medals in Alderaan, and 0 from Voidstar (no one went for my door on defense - and we had a three minute takedown on their datacore - literally plant - plant - plant - win and I was planting). It happens, I just moved onto the next game. A zero medal win. I got 5 MVP's just for the fact that I didn't abandon my door - even though it was boring as bollocks, and went planting for the victory. It happens, move on. DD's can get a sizeable amount of medals. Sure - not the theoretical max that healers/tanks can, but good players will equal them with ease, and surpass them frequently.

The problem with this becomes: If you win an "equal" starting match, they just need to leave to deny you the win. This griefing will happen instantly. Especially since BM *only* need wins for their gear grind. Literally - you'd just see BM's quitting left/right/centre to stop you from winning, forcing the match to end early. Which would either result in more BM's being replaced - and then leaving, or lower valor players being farmed from a bad situation. What should happen - is only allow +1 player to join when starting until the sides are equal +/- 1 on either side. If people rage quit. Well, screw em. I'd also look to change the way WZ Dailies are handled, but that's another topic.

You seem to forget Dirty Kick. There's nothing that a swift kick to the sack can't solve - been working for centuries. While Smugglers/Agents don't have quite the same movement as Sorc/Sages, they're not wholly without tricks they can utilize in a bad situation. Not least of all, a foot placed squarely in the meat and two veg of an ungentlemanly sort in their way. Just because you don't have healing spells doesn't place you as the weakest player on the field.

And this - this is what it all boils down to. Objective based play beats you deathmatching. No, I prefer my thinking mans WZ to another grindfest. Only reason I ever hate Huttball is because of gibbering idiots who can't think and can only Deathmatch. You didn't make it more fun. You just made it more mindless.

To be honest, it's *not* my preferred way to win, as it means we lose a vital player to pass to and control the flow of the game. Then again - we're used to playing against good players who can do all sorts of tricks, and having a stealther around in centre is more useful for us. Each to their own though. My *preferred* way, is usually a combination of passes/pulls carry swaps that split the enemy up, leaving them in the pit, while we mimble down the centre ramp (since it's the easiest to angle yourself so you can't get yanked back into the pit that way if they're in the pit). However, I'm not so stupid, whiney and childish to make statements like: The ball shouldn't be passed from the pit. Or stealthing is an exploit. I leave the making of those to people like the OP. And actually - I think the Devs *would* say passing from the Pit is fine, along with leaping/pulling etc from the pit. I can't state this as truth, but I'm fairly certain that *that* was the original intention. To create a playing field, that had *MULTIPLE* ways of succeeding.

You're an idiot. I'm sorry - but - while Bioware might be stupid enough to listen to you and nerf because of this - it still changes nothing. This is a valid tactic, that also has a NEGATIVE to it, that you're missing a man in the middle. Basically - putting you at a BALL CONTROL DISADVANTAGE. But - YOU STILL LOST AND BLAME EVERYONE BUT YOURSELF. It's time to look at the reality of things. It's not an "Exploit". It's not a "Bug". It's not a "Glitch". It's a valid use of mechanics in a game. Seriously - you'd call "Foul", if you were presented with a premade who had a carrier run down the side and pass it up to a team mate on a ledge, or was yanked up, or leapt to a team mate. You'd call "Cheating" if your own side were stupid and hung around on the ledge and I charged up to them and scored. You'd call "Exploit" if anyone does ANYTHING that you can't coordinate. You are being idiotic, and your thread is laughable. Let's just pray that Bioware stops listening to people like you - the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR.

But it's easier to WHINE on the forums and ask for nerfing neh?