Vader vs Revan

[Wolfninjajedi]

So heres a question for the Revan fanboys...What has Revan done that Vader hasn't done better throughout his life?

[Killswtch]

I read earlier someone say that in the Skywalker/Kenobi duel, Obi-Wan was backing up for most of the duel.

 

Being a total noob and still reading and learning stuff, isn't that the entire point of Obi-Wans style? He maintains a defensive posture until he can find an opening to attack, in this case, Anakin getting cocky and trying to jump over him?

 

Wouldn't it say really that experience won out in that first duel between them?

[shinyelf]

It was a ruse to further deceive Anakin into thinking the Jedi were trying to forcibly take over the Republic.

 

actually it was because Windu is able to create a loop that makes it as if no force techniques is used, this is done by using his own saber style (Vapaad) wich is stated as being one of the most danerous form.

[shinyelf]

So heres a question for the Revan fanboys...What has Revan done that Vader hasn't done better throughout his life?

 

for an example Revan had a high degree of mastery in force precgonition which he was able to use during combate, he also killed teranterreks (is that speeled right?) creatures almost immune to the forece and designed to kill force users, furthermore he masterede force whirlwind(Vader did not) and was, like Yoda, able to deflect forece lightning with his bare hands.

 

Last but not least Revan was able to use the Dark and the Light side at the same time, something Vader was incapable of because he was never redeemed.

[Hugacarlos]

Mace Windu Style {{Vapaad}} Vaapad was explained as being a state of mind rather than just a fighting style, allowing the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent. I think mace windu is arguably the strongest of them all his fighting style includes both dark side and good side in his fighting style without sucumbing to the darkside. He easliy took down Darth Sidious with ease. something that vader had to sacrifice himself to do. and Mace Windu did it like it was nothing.

 

*thoughts?????*

Edited December 25, 2011 by Hugacarlos

[Killswtch]

Mace Windu Style {{Vapaad}} Vaapad was explained as being a state of mind rather than just a fighting style, allowing the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent. I think mace windu is arguably the strongest of them all his fighting style includes both dark side and good side in his fighting style without sucumbing to the darkside. He easliy took down Darth Sidious with ease. something that vader had to sacrifice himself to do. and Mace Windu did it like it was nothing.

 

*thoughts?????*

 

Sidious threw that fight, he knew Anakin would be there, and used it to his advantage.

[MaceTowani]

for an example Revan had a high degree of mastery in force precgonition which he was able to use during combate, he also killed teranterreks (is that speeled right?) creatures almost immune to the forece and designed to kill force users, furthermore he masterede force whirlwind(Vader did not) and was, like Yoda, able to deflect forece lightning with his bare hands.

Last but not least Revan was able to use the Dark and the Light side at the same time, something Vader was incapable of because he was never redeemed.

 

Vader had exceptional Force precognition on an immense scale due to having the highest Midocholorian count and being the Chosen One. Revan dooes not compare.

 

It is unknown if Revan possessed the power of "Force Whirlwind" and Vader killed almost half a dozen Jedi with nothing more than his Lightsaber Prowess.

 

Also, Revan did not reflect lightning with his "bare hands", he made an extreme concentrated effort, drawing on all of his powers and knowledge to do so and creating a "bubble" so to say.

 

Vader was a Jedi for over 20 years and a Sith for approximately 30. He knew a thing or two about the light and dark side, there was also no "memory-wipe" between the two mind you.

Edited December 25, 2011 by MaceTowani

[Sakushi]

I read earlier someone say that in the Skywalker/Kenobi duel, Obi-Wan was backing up for most of the duel.

 

Being a total noob and still reading and learning stuff, isn't that the entire point of Obi-Wans style? He maintains a defensive posture until he can find an opening to attack, in this case, Anakin getting cocky and trying to jump over him?

 

Wouldn't it say really that experience won out in that first duel between them?

 

Experience won that first duel obviously, i think the 2nd fight was sacrificial

[Rhyltran]

Mace Windu Style {{Vapaad}} Vaapad was explained as being a state of mind rather than just a fighting style, allowing the wielder to channel his own inner darkness into the duel, and accept the fury of the opponent. I think mace windu is arguably the strongest of them all his fighting style includes both dark side and good side in his fighting style without sucumbing to the darkside. He easliy took down Darth Sidious with ease. something that vader had to sacrifice himself to do. and Mace Windu did it like it was nothing.

 

*thoughts?????*

 

Windu was going to die to Sidious force lightning. Whether Anakin walked in or didn't.

[tlang]

Many, many, many posts in this thread prove that really, Vader vs Revan isn't really a fair debate. We know WAAAY more about Vader. Alot of people who support Revan in this debate (I believe they're called "fan-boys" around here?) just 'assume' things we really don't know about Revan. And alot of the things we DO know about Revan are hardly in detail (Which I think is a slight issue with the characher and why it's so easy to be "anti-revan").

[tlang]

Also, Revan did not reflect lightning with his "bare hands", he made an extreme concentrated effort, drawing on all of his powers and knowledge to do so and creating a "bubble" so to say.

[/font]

 

I've read the book. Maybe I missed it but didn't he just walk out the room, say something like "I am revan reborn, you are nothing before be" and just threw his hand out and killed her just like that? I mean I think I missed the part where it explained his ''concentrated effort''

 

EDIT: "Revan was proficient in the application of Force lightning,[3] and also in the use of defensive techniques to counter it.[2] Revan could use his bare hands to absorb and deflect very powerful Force lightning attacks.[2] Very few Force-users in the galactic history have demonstrated this ability."

 

"Revan emerged from the cell. He Had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he word the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face. A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her ememies.

Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it. Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide.

He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling themaway fromtheir intended targets and absorbing their power. "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And brfore me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash." pg. 248 SWTOR: Revan

 

"He had easily bested Darth Nyriss..." pg. 251 SWTOR: Revan

 

This information (canon?) counters what you said.

 

An argument that would work better is this: the power of the Force-user directing the force-lightning at Revan.

Edited December 26, 2011 by tlang

[MaceTowani]

I've read the book. Maybe I missed it but didn't he just walk out the room, say something like "I am revan reborn, you are nothing before be" and just threw his hand out and killed her just like that? I mean I think I missed the part where it explained his ''concentrated effort''

 

EDIT: "Revan was proficient in the application of Force lightning,[3] and also in the use of defensive techniques to counter it.[2] Revan could use his bare hands to absorb and deflect very powerful Force lightning attacks.[2] Very few Force-users in the galactic history have demonstrated this ability."

 

"Revan emerged from the cell. He Had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he word the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face. A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her ememies.

Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it. Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide.

He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling themaway fromtheir intended targets and absorbing their power. "I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And brfore me you are nothing."

Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash." pg. 248 SWTOR: Revan

 

"He had easily bested Darth Nyriss..." pg. 251 SWTOR: Revan

 

This information (canon?) counters what you said.

 

An argument that would work better is this: the power of the Force-user directing the force-lightning at Revan.

 

My argument was that Revan didn't bounce it back because he's an all-powerful being, he merely redirected by allowing it to flow through him as the novel iterates.

 

Frankly, Drew's prose in these situations are to be taken with a grain of salt since he seems to lack the eloquent wording of many of his peers, using terms like "the greatest champion the Jedi had ever seen" or "Drawing on both the light and dark side like twin rivers"

Edited December 26, 2011 by MaceTowani

[AnubisNLN]

i'd say revan, now i haven't read the books and what not just seen the movies and played the KOTOR games.

 

but the main argument for vadar seems to be he withstood sidius's lightning who was the most powerfull sith lord in the galaxy, so vadar's "tough"... but judging from the movies sidious was nothing but a pathetic old geezer waiting for death to collect him.

 

where revan fought sith lord's and jedi masters who did more then sit on there *** and cast force lightning once or twice.

 

judging from what i've seen them do i'd even place malak way above sidius.

 

and as for vadar vs revan, revan cause he actually did some battle and fought the mandalorians and a couple sith lord and jedi, what little we did see from vadar actualy dooing stuff was not really that over the top or impressive, even in his younger years.

Edited December 26, 2011 by AnubisNLN

[Draythion]

Every game character appears more powerfull then it's movie counterpart, just look at what vader can do in the force unleashed. So it's sadly not possible to compare those two characters with each other.

[tlang]

My argument was that Revan didn't bounce it back because he's an all-powerful being, he merely redirected by allowing it to flow through him as the novel iterates.

 

Frankly, Drew's prose in these situations are to be taken with a grain of salt since he seems to lack the eloquent wording of many of his peers, using terms like "the greatest champion the Jedi had ever seen" or "Drawing on both the light and dark side like twin rivers"

 

Okay, I think you should've worded it differently then. And it didn't seem like the person your were quoting/talking to was even on the other side of it in any way (saying he WAS and all powerfull being). It was more like you were making a point.

 

I was merely pointing out your wording of it.

 

But also, Canon is canon no? I know some authers are better than others but still... can we really say something like "yeah it's canon BUT" ?

[MaceTowani]

Okay, I think you should've worded it differently then. And it didn't seem like the person your were quoting/talking to was even on the other side of it in any way (saying he WAS and all powerfull being). It was more like you were making a point.

 

I was merely pointing out your wording of it.

 

But also, Canon is canon no? I know some authers are better than others but still... can we really say something like "yeah it's canon BUT" ?

 

There are a lot of buts in canon due to some sources being more accurate than others. Such as the novelizations of the prequels giving you MUCH more depth than the movies which also gives you some canoncal insight that you cannot acquire from just watching the movies.

 

I just personally believe other accomplished authors Like Matthew Stover and Troy Denning should have proof-read his work and made some edits in order to clean up his prose, or lack there of.

[tlang]

There are a lot of buts in canon due to some sources being more accurate than others. Such as the novelizations of the prequels giving you MUCH more depth than the movies which also gives you some canoncal insight that you cannot acquire from just watching the movies.

 

I just personally believe other accomplished authors Like Matthew Stover and Troy Denning should have proof-read his work and made some edits in order to clean up his prose, or lack there of.

 

Indeed. The SW universe is VAST. Hate is such a strong word but I can see why people can be so anti-revan. Just as well as I can see how people can be so in love with the character. Personally I think it's really cool how an rpg character with such a great story built around it and so much personal choice left to the player can evolve into the canon of SW. But I think I'd like it better and the character could be better if they didn't leave AS much mystery and room for imagination to him.

[shinyelf]

Vader had exceptional Force precognition on an immense scale due to having the highest Midocholorian count and being the Chosen One. Revan dooes not compare.

 

It is unknown if Revan possessed the power of "Force Whirlwind" and Vader killed almost half a dozen Jedi with nothing more than his Lightsaber Prowess.

 

Also, Revan did not reflect lightning with his "bare hands", he made an extreme concentrated effort, drawing on all of his powers and knowledge to do so and creating a "bubble" so to say.

 

Vader was a Jedi for over 20 years and a Sith for approximately 30. He knew a thing or two about the light and dark side, there was also no "memory-wipe" between the two mind you.[/font]

 

Go to Wookieepedia and check out the sections on Revans powers and abilities, everything i stated should be there, including his mastery of force whirlwind.

Furthermore i would, for the record as they say, state that im an not a Revan fanboy.

I belive that Vader was an accomplished Sith, and capable of much more than people assume, but i also belive the same of Revan.

In the debate of wether or not Revan would be/be beaten by Vader i think it is essential to look at the Force, one of the few things in which Revan achieved greater masstery than Vader.

It has clearly been stated that Revan had an unbreakable will, something that is not true for Vader. We also know that Vader was incapable of using some force techniques, Forcelightning among them, due to a great deal of him being machine.

Revans Holocron also contained the instructions on a powerful technique that would later be used by Darth Bane, the thought bomb (or mind bomb, not sure).

And while you claim that Vader "knew a thing or two about the light and dark side2 it is essential to know that Revan was basically a master of both, and while it is true that his mind was wiped, he regained his lost memories later on.

[Rhyltran]

i'd say revan, now i haven't read the books and what not just seen the movies and played the KOTOR games.

 

but the main argument for vadar seems to be he withstood sidius's lightning who was the most powerfull sith lord in the galaxy, so vadar's "tough"... but judging from the movies sidious was nothing but a pathetic old geezer waiting for death to collect him.

 

where revan fought sith lord's and jedi masters who did more then sit on there *** and cast force lightning once or twice.

 

judging from what i've seen them do i'd even place malak way above sidius.

 

and as for vadar vs revan, revan cause he actually did some battle and fought the mandalorians and a couple sith lord and jedi, what little we did see from vadar actualy dooing stuff was not really that over the top or impressive, even in his younger years.

 

If you read the EU you'd know how terribly wrong your assessment of Sidious was.

 

 

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

 

The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.” (Death Star, page 76)

 

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

 

"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"-- The Dark Empire Sourcebook.

 

“[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.”-- The Dark Side Sourcebook.

 

”Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.”-- The Complete Visual Dictionary.

 

"The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force." -- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

 

"Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy. What has proven to be the lasting genius of Palpatine as Emperor is his devotion to collecting all the knowledge of the Dark Side that he can, as well as what Light Side information he can corrupt and preserve. He is no more altruistic than any other, but his newfound immortality has given him the patience that all before him have lacked."

 

Force feats.

*Force Storms Wormholes that can destroy starfleets

* Force-based subjugation of ~20 billion sentients and the simultaneous leeching of their life energy

* Corrupting an entire planet, transforming it from a neutral territory to "one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy"

* Blunting the Force sensitivity of ~10,000 collective Jedi for over a decade

* Slaughtering trained Force Jedi with a single bursts of Force energy on one's death bed.

* Disintegrating highly trained Sith acolytes with a single gout of Sith lightning.

* Destroying ~50 armored stormtroopers with a single gout of Sith lightning

* Shrugging off a Force-enhanced explosion from the energy of a Force-user powerful enough to manipulate a Star Destroyer.

* Manipulating the minds of seasoned thousands (perhaps millions) of fleet officers and members.

* Mindwipe the people of Coruscant to make them forget the burial of a star destroyer.

 

 

Also no one has shown the resistance Vader has displayed against force lightning.

 

Also just because Revan "knows light and dark" doesn't mean he uses both in equal measure. After he turns to the light he doesn't really use what he learned from studying the dark side.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Rhyltran

[shinyelf]

i will yet again refer you to Wookieepedia, under the listing of Revans abilities it is satede that he could channel both with equal mastery (or something like that) an while Vader was more of a "sith Warrior" and Sidius was a "sith sorcerer(correct spelling?)" Revan was a master of several dicplines, this might work against him, but it might also help him.

In my honest opnion i dont think there is any point in arguing this further, personally i belive that Revan would win, but we can always find counter evidence, and then evidence to counter the counter evidence, that is the wonderful thing about Star Wars, it is so incredibly huge.

 

P.S.

I think i read somewhere that Sidius once statede that if Yoda had chosen to utilize the Dark side he might even be the supirior Sith lord (I'm pretty sure, but it might just have been my mind playing games with me)

[Vorian-Rob]

I will start by stating the simple fact that Vader was limited a lot by the technology available at the time when the original trilogy was filmed. Obviously if the original trilogy were remade with the same capabilities that we have now, then we would have a dark lord whocould do more than pivot back and forth.

Darth Vader was incredibly powerful he was trained initialy as a Jedi by some of the most influencial Jedi of the time. He was born with an unnatural affinity to the force and when trained he became tremendousy powerful. When Anakin finally fell to the dark side he was trained by the main villain of the saga to weild the force in ways he couldnt even fathom before. Add his initial talent, superb training, and his cybernetic body together and you have a force powered freight train.

 

Revan on the other hand was an accomlished hero of the Jedi Order, he had an astounding thirst for knowledge and a command over the force unlike any Jedi of his time. Revan was praised by both the repubic AND the Mandalorians as the man who brought the Mandalorians to their knees during the Mandalorian Wars. Upon defeating the Mandalorians Revan travelled out into the outer rim where he encountered the "True Sith" There he learned the ways of the dark side of the force, his own inhuman thirst for knowledge leading him to a swift mastery of the dark side. To avoid rehashing details I'll sum it up by saying he returned to Republic space as the main villain, brought the republic to its knees, was knocked out and brainwashed on account of his apprentices betrayal, then returned as the main Hero. When Revan regained his mask he regained his memories and with such a mastery of both sides of the force. Revan found the Star Forge and chose not to use it. He literally has held the fate of the galaxy in the palm of his hand more than 3 times.

 

While both of these characters are Titans in their own right. I would have to give it to Revan. Knowledge and expertise are on his side, and a smarter and more skillful combatant will almost always win over one who focuses on brute strength.

 

On a more comical note:

 

Vader's wants: His Mommy, His dead girlfriend, and the death of a wrinkly old man

Revan's wants: A Basilisk War Droid.

[Macepwnspalpy]

Revan wins with ease.

 

Both of them at there prime.

 

Revan Sith Lord

Pre Must vader

 

Old Sith and jedi are quite a bit powerfull then "Most" of the newer ones.

 

So Heart of the force vs Chosen one.

 

Im sorry but the Force beats the Chosen one.

 

Anakin has some impressive feats but hes nothing compared to Revan.

 

Revan could beat palpy A fiece battle but he would come out on top.

 

This being said Older the sith the stronger for the really powerful ones.

 

Naga shadow would beat Revan and so on so on.

 

However if Anakin had reached his full abilitys and power he would be only a small amount weaker then EU Luke who is the stongest Jedi ever..In that case he would win.

That being said Revan also never met his full abilitys before being captured and reprogrammed by the jedi.

 

Vader fought in an army and tipped the scales in the Republics side againts DROIDS

 

Revan was the sole reason the republic won againts battle harden'd MAINDALORIANS Who live for battle.

Each 1 mandolorian is = to 100 battle droids.

Malak and The Exile would have helped but it was all Revan.

 

Revan

Power Check

Lightsaber master Check.

Force mastery Check.

Charisma Check.

Leader Check.

Ballanced in the force Check.

Bad *** Check.

 

Anakin.

Power Check.

Lightsaber master Not yet complete.

Force mastery Still a ways to go.

Charisma Nope sorry.

Leader Check but lets his feelings get in the way revan sacreficed thousands so millions could live.

Ballanced in the force....Do i have to say it?

Bad *** When hes not being a whiny ^^^^ sure.

 

Revan wins hands down.

Hell Bastila would take Anakin without much effert.

 

We all love vader but no contest for revan.

 

Its like Asking Marka Raganos vs Revan.

Revan is a pimp but he cant beat raganos.

 

Edit to the above poster.

 

Many of the darkside and lightside power's would have been lost in time for the jedi and the sith so anakin would not have had the chance to learn them.

 

Darth bane the creator of the rule of 2 found a holocron of revans time as a sith lord which included only sith teachings and its unlikely it was everything he knew.

The Force was more powerful back in the Kotor era

 

On top of this Sith have a way of keeping the secret teachings to them selfs.....hence sith loose even more force teachings then jedi.

 

Also lightsaber forms would have gone out of practise for the jedi as well.

 

In the Republic era where are all the Duel saber users? There is hardly any.

Where are the double bladed jedi?

Why are most jedi only using 1 form?

Obi-Wan uses soresu mace uses vapad yoda despite all his years focuses on ataru.

They should be mixing em with each other

Edited December 26, 2011 by Macepwnspalpy

[MaceTowani]

^Wrong on so many levels I cant even begin to start.

[BrandonSM]

^Wrong on so many levels I cant even begin to start.

 

If he is kidding, its a cruel joke.

[Rhyltran]

i will yet again refer you to Wookieepedia, under the listing of Revans abilities it is satede that he could channel both with equal mastery (or something like that) an while Vader was more of a "sith Warrior" and Sidius was a "sith sorcerer(correct spelling?)" Revan was a master of several dicplines, this might work against him, but it might also help him.

In my honest opnion i dont think there is any point in arguing this further, personally i belive that Revan would win, but we can always find counter evidence, and then evidence to counter the counter evidence, that is the wonderful thing about Star Wars, it is so incredibly huge.

 

P.S.

I think i read somewhere that Sidius once statede that if Yoda had chosen to utilize the Dark side he might even be the supirior Sith lord (I'm pretty sure, but it might just have been my mind playing games with me)

 

Wookieepedia isn't Canon. He was also a master of all but one Saber form. "Sith sorcerer" and such is only gameplay mechanics. Sidious studied both Dark and Light side teachings. He learned from the light side and twisted light techniques and got them to work for the dark side. Sidious was one of the best saber duelists and most knowledgeable in the force. He's also displayed the highest mastery of force lightning (by the simple fact that it killed Vader so quickly. The guy who has the best sith lightning resistance of any star wars character.)

 

As stated, people keep throwing around "he's master of both light/dark!" Revan reborn didn't draw on the dark side of the force. Only the light. So his knowledge of the dark doesn't matter much. He only uses one side.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Rhyltran