Vader vs Revan

[Jadedfate]

Obi wan beats Vader on mustafarr. obi wan lets vader kill him in new hope. This isnt a REVAN IS ALL POWERFUL fan boy post. but the fact remains, vader gets beat by a lot of people. at any point. to fight revan, who was a force user, not a slave to light or dark wouldnt be much of a contest imo.

 

his apprentice (starkiller The force unleashed) beats him at the end of the story. sidious doesnt even really kill him, he sacrifices his life force to subdue the emperor. though i guess that part is up for debate.

 

And your argument doesn't matter. Lucas says so. God I wish Lucas would say Jar Jar Binks found a time Machine and went back and had his way with Revan just to shut up the fanboys.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Jadedfate

[BrandonSM]

And your argument doesn't matter. Lucas says so.

 

This and, Kaledan. Make a list of people who have beat him. And then compare to the list of people he has beaten. Look whats way smaller.

 

Vader walked into a room full of Jedi(7-9 I think) alone and walked out the only one alive.

[DarthKaledan]

what room are you talking about? a room of padawans? while he had a fleet of storm troopers at his back? and why does GL say my argument doesn't matter? was starkiller not canon? anakin spent his youth fighting droids. and as stated before sidious didnt teach him ****.

 

 

I used nothing but canon lore.

Edited December 19, 2011 by DarthKaledan

[DuchessOfDork]

I think it's kind of sad that the first thought in my mind is that Vader would lose.

 

I blame Lucas for making one of his greatest creations look so f'ing weak.

[BrandonSM]

what room are you talking about? a room of padawans? while he had a fleet of storm troopers at his back? and why does GL say my argument doesn't matter? was starkiller not canon? anakin spent his youth fighting droids. and as stated before sidious didnt teach him ****.

 

 

I used nothing but canon lore.

 

He killed 5 out of 8 Jedi Masters on Kessel.

[DarthKaledan]

He killed 5 out of 8 Jedi Masters on Kessel.

 

You still didnt tell me how GL says im wrong.

[DarthKaledan]

and as for kessels, he was beaten, he was saved from the last jedi by stormtroopers.

[BrandonSM]

You still didnt tell me how GL says im wrong.

 

I wasn't the one who said that.

 

 

And Vader was never defeated, he refused to surrender. And the troopers arrived by surprise.

[Zarkresh]

I´d trust the novel-guys as the novels doesn´t tell you ********. I presonally take the count of midi-chlorians into acount while talking "strongest Force user ever", but many smart notes tells us Vader´s abilities are cut down at Mustafar. My view of Star Wars tell me he isn´t, but that is another debate. However, Bioware blew Revan up to some sort of God in order to sell more copies of KOTOR. So don´t admire him more than a "plus-thirty-thousand-midi-chlorian-imbzor-slaughter".

 

And as someone said, the movies doesn´t do Vader favor. If we get a remake in about five years, then nobody would talk about this topic, they would know Vader is one of the greatest Sith/Jedi ever lived. And where Revan has more knowledge, it doesn´t give him duelist advantages.

 

Lucas of course has to agree with and accept everything official that is released that has anything to do with Star Wars. But if you ask him, I´m sure he wouldn´t take the pride away from Luke, Vader and Palpatine, as they were his first successful creations (talking of Force users and not taking Kenobi into account). I´d say the clip showing Vader, Kenobi and Yoda as Force ghosts at the end of VI says a lot, even though other users has become one with the Force too. But I´ve never heard about Revan becoming it. So either agree with me, saying Vader would strike Revan down, or fill me up with the Revan-content I , in your opinion, lack.

[Rhyltran]

Obi wan beats Vader on mustafarr. obi wan lets vader kill him in new hope. This isnt a REVAN IS ALL POWERFUL fan boy post. but the fact remains, vader gets beat by a lot of people. at any point. to fight revan, who was a force user, not a slave to light or dark wouldnt be much of a contest imo.

 

his apprentice (starkiller The force unleashed) beats him at the end of the story. sidious doesnt even really kill him, he sacrifices his life force to subdue the emperor. though i guess that part is up for debate.

 

Kenobi wasn't some weak master. Kenobi was the best Soresu user in Star Wars history. Also I have stated it before and I'll state it again. There is NO truth to Vader being vulnerable to force lightning. He was more resilient against it than anyone else in Star Wars universe.

 

Yes his troopers saved him from the last of the 8 Jedi but that was after he managed to defeat nearly all of them himself and was worn down. Many of them were masters and all the masters were already cut down before the troopers arrived. Yes he lost to his apprentice but his apprentice is a power house.

 

Vader was trained in the dark side post mustafar. This is stated in the Star Wars databank and various other sources. Vader also continued to refine and improve his fighting abilities. His suit gave him inhuman strength enhanced by the force making his blows powerful. His style was a mix of multiple styles designed to specifically allow his limited movements to compete with those who are more acrobatic.

 

Despite his student being incredibly powerful and highly acrobatic Vader was able to fight on par with him. Yes if mustafar never happened he'd be far more powerful but honestly he doesn't have trouble with most acrobatic opponents.

 

P.S. I'm not convinced without his storm troopers he'd have lost against the Jedi. The most damage he suffered was the loss of an arm if I recall but considering all that was left was Padawan.. I'm sure he could have destroyed him with the force alone or with a single hand at that point.

Edited December 19, 2011 by Rhyltran

[BrandonSM]

Kenobi wasn't some weak master. Kenobi was the best Soresu user in Star Wars history.

 

And he was losing badly until Anakin's stupidity granted Obi Victory.

Edited December 19, 2011 by BrandonSM

[Rhyltran]

And he was losing badly until Anakin's stupidity granted Obi Victory.

 

Exactly. It was his mastery in the ultimate defensive art that allowed him to remain alive until he found an opening and even then it was Anakin's arrogance. Obi Wan was being pushed back the entire time. Not to mention Obi Wan's mastery of the force was weak compared to Anakin's. Obi Wan had one of the strongest mastery over force push in the entire order and his absolute best move in the force was equaled by Anakin's force push. In which Anakin still recovered from it faster.

[Biolord]

Not true in the least..the Sith Emperor basically controlled him like a puppet.

 

Vader was the pet of the Emperor. He talked big but up to the end he never have had the guts to challenge him. That is not a Sith thats a puppet.

[Rhyltran]

Vader was the pet of the Emperor. He talked big but up to the end he never have had the guts to challenge him. That is not a Sith thats a puppet.

 

Sort of. He knew if he fought him he'd lose but he did plot against him and did come up with some ideas on how to destroy him.

[Wolfninjajedi]

And he was losing badly until Anakin's stupidity granted Obi Victory.

 

Ok where is this from? I have seen so many other posts saying the exact opposite, that Obi-Wan was letting himself, and also quotes from the novel. So which is right here? Because now I am confused.

[DarthKaledan]

Obi wan held back on mustafar. he was a better duelist, he got the high ground. he didnt want to kill what he saw as his little brother. youd have reservations too. and his stupidity is still him, he would still have arrogance and stupidity against anyone else.

[BrandonSM]

Obi wan held back on mustafar. he was a better duelist, he got the high ground. he didnt want to kill what he saw as his little brother. youd have reservations too. and his stupidity is still him, he would still have arrogance and stupidity against anyone else.

 

He didn't hold back. Read the novel.

 

As a Padawan Anakin was a great challenge for Obi. He lasted a whole lot longer than Obi against Dooku.

[Saggins]

Revan gets way too much credit and the Sith Emperor rolled him handily.

 

Vader.

[BrandonSM]

Ok where is this from? I have seen so many other posts saying the exact opposite, that Obi-Wan was letting himself, and also quotes from the novel. So which is right here? Because now I am confused.

 

I don't have the novel anymore, which weakens my arguement a great deal but I know I am correct. I'm sure another debater does.

 

But Wookieepedia serves me well.

 

Vader viciously drove Kenobi back through the complex with his mastery of Djem So, however he was unable to penetrate Kenobi's mastery of Soresu. Their bout in the control room of the complex deactivated the energy shield protecting the settlement, so when their fight spread to the collection arms of the lava mining facility; they were forced to dodge a rain of fire. While they were fighting, the weight and heat of the lava caused the collection arms structure to weaken and eventually collapse and break loose.[68]

 

Kenobi on Mustafar during his climactic duel with Darth Vader. Kenobi and Vader continued to fight on the collection arm as it floated down a lava river, but when they came to a lava fall, Kenobi leapt off onto one of the mining platforms floating above the river. Thinking Vader dead, he turned to find the Sith Lord perched on a lava mining droid, having leapt from the structure before it plunged to oblivion. As their fight continued they floated back upriver, continuing to exchange verbal barbs. Kenobi desperately tried to convince Vader of Palpatine's evil, but when Vader retorted the Jedi were evil from his perspective, Kenobi bellowed that his old student and friend was beyond redemption. As their battle edged close to shore, Kenobi took his chance and leapt onto the shore, gaining the high ground over Vader.

[Rhyltran]

Obi wan held back on mustafar. he was a better duelist, he got the high ground. he didnt want to kill what he saw as his little brother. youd have reservations too. and his stupidity is still him, he would still have arrogance and stupidity against anyone else.

 

No he didn't. Also yes arrogance can work in anyone's favor. However, if someone completely out classes you and they're arrogant chances are they're still going to beat you. There are some pro fighters in pro circuits that are incredibly cocky and still win far more than they lose simply because they are better. Arrogance is a weakness but just because one is arrogant doesn't mean they're an easy to beat opponent.

[GhostRiderLSOV]

Arrogance is a weakness but just because one is arrogant doesn't mean they're an easy to beat opponent.

 

Indeed. But arrogance leads to mistakes that can make you lose the race.

Or 1 arm and 2 legs for the matter.

[Deviss]

Oh my god, not this topic again...

 

I agree that Vader was stronger than pre-mustafar Anakin, but you are missing the point. If Anakin would not end up so heavily wounded on Mustafar he would become even more powerful and would probably strike down Palpatine very early after RotS. If you think that after burning in lava you become more powerful... lets just say it does not work that way . I wonder why other sith lords did not took baths in molten lava in order to work out a bit. And upon what "canon" if I may ask you base your theory that Sidious was the most powerful Sith ever? He definitely achieved a lot with his political capabilities and manipulation skills. But it's hard to be sure that he was more powerful than all other ancient sith lords who ever lived, or his former master Darth Plagueis. Plagueis discovered the secret of immortality - Palpatine did not. Hell, Plagueis could even bend Midi-chlorians to his own will in order to create life out of nothing - and he created the most powerful force user to ever exist. Palpatine knew that he could lose face to face duel with Plagueis so he used his cunning to kill him in his sleep. Also, I find it hard to believe that Palpatine could be even a match for Lord Vitiate. We know very little about the Sith Emperor (the TOR one) and yet it seemes that he is capable of wiping out entire life in the galaxy. Read Revan novel if you want to find out more about him, or complete the JK storyline. I don't think Palpatine comes even close to that. I am guessing you are claiming Sidious to be most powerful sith ever because of New Essential Chronology. Well, if you knew the full context of this book and it's claim about Sidious being the most powerful sith you would knew that it is refering to his accomplishments and not the actual power. It all comes down to your very own definition of power. Power can vary a lot you know...

 

Now back to Vader and Revan discussion, in the end it's impossible to be sure who would win. Canon will probably never directly give us an answer to this question. It all comes down to personal, subjective opinion. The only thing that we can be sure of is that Anakin definitely had the most potential out of all SW characters who were both sith and jedi alike because after all he was the chosen one. But you have to understasnd that he was very young in RotS. On the other hand when he gained expierience and knowledge later on as Darth Vader, he was weaker and far less powerful then he would have been if he did not lose on mustafar. He was still very powerful, but it was nothing compared to what he could have been.

 

In the end, my bet is for Revan - he was also very powerful and as Kreia put it: "looking at him was like stearing into the heart of the force". Revan had A LOT more experience and knowledge than Vader. And call me whatever you want, but after reading many SW books (related to both Vader and Revan) I think that experienced Vader post-mustafar would lose to Revan. As for young Revan vs young Anakin - Anakin would probably emerge victorious from direct face to face combat.

 

You also have to look at this from another angle - let's say that Vader could defeat Revan in duel. But what if they took command of two armies and fought against each other. Would the outcome be the same? Revan was expectional strategist and completely turned the tide of Mandalorian Wars. Mandalore was no match for him when it came to leadership.

 

You have to understand that this discussion is pointless and it's impossible to answer such questions - it all depends on the circumstances of the situation. In the end it all comes down to personal preferences and what fans themselves imagine. Comparing Vader and Revan is fanfiction in itself.

 

Also on a side note, don't know if you know this but Darth Bane considered Revan the greatest Sith Lord of all time despite his redemption (read the Darth Bane trilogy for more information). Bane was the one who introduced the rule of two.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Deviss

[Xiahoufig]

Oh my god, not this topic again...

 

I agree that Vader was stronger than post-mustafar Anakin, but you are missing the point. If Anakin would not end up so heavily wounded on Mustafar he would become even more powerful and would probably strike down Palpatine very early after RotS. If you think that after burning in lava you become more powerful then congratulations to you sir. I wonder why other sith lords did not took baths in molten lava in order to work out a bit. And upon what canon if I may ask you base your theory that Sidious was the most powerful Sith ever? He definitely achieved a lot with his political capabilities and manipulation skills. But he was nothing compared to ancient sith lords or his former master Darth Plagueis. He knew he did not stand chance with Plagueis in combat so he used his cunning to kill Plagueis in his sleep. I'am guessing you are claiming Sidious to be most powerful sith ever because of New Essential Chronology. Well, if you knew the full context of this book and it's claim about Sidious being the most powerful sith you would knew that it is refering to his accomplishments and not the actual power. It all comes down to your very own definition of power. Power can vary a lot you know...

 

Now back to Vader and Revan discussion, in the end it's impossible to be sure who would win. Canon will probably never directly give us an answer to this question. It all comes down to personal opinion. The only thing that we can be sure of is that Anakin definitely had the most potential because he was the chosen one. But you have to understasnd that he was very young in RoTS. On the other hand when he gained expierience and knowledge later on as Darth Vader, he was weaker and far less powerful then he would have been if he did not lose on mustafar. He was still very powerful, but it was nothing compared to what he could have been.

 

In the end, my best is for Revan - he was also very powerful and as Kreia put it: "looking at him was like stearing at the heart of the force". Revan had A LOT more experience and knowledge than Vader.

 

You also have to look at this from another angle - let's say that Vader could defeat Revan in duel. But what if they took command of two armies and fought against each other. Would the outcome be the same? Revan was expectional strategist and completely turned the tide of Mandalorian Wars. Mandalore was no match for him when it came to leadership.

 

You have to understand that this discussion will never be canon and in the end it all comes down to personal preferences and what fans themselfs imagine. Comparing Vader and Revan is fanfiction in itself.

 

Also on a side note, don't know if you know this but Darth Bane considered Revan the greatest Sith Lord of all time despite his redemption (read the Darth Bane trilogy for more information). Bane was the one who introduced the rule of two.

 

I believe Lucas himself said that Sidious was the most powerful Sith ever, but that's not what I wanted to talk about in your post.

 

It always did bother me that Palpatine killed Plagueis in his sleep as opposed to killing him in open combat, as the Rule of Two mandated. So, if that's the case, maybe that does call into question the true extent of Sidious's abilities. Still, being able to rip open wormholes in space large enough to swallow entire warships is pretty freakin' powerful.

[Castiel]

Lightsaber Combat: Revan was considered extremely skilled with a lightsaber, and very acrobatic in combat. Vader was also very powerful, but was restricted in movement by his armor.

 

Giving it to Revan.

 

Force powers: Revan was said to be exceptionally strong with the force. I'm not comfortable with the whole "Heart of the Force" idea though, since Kreia seems like an unreliable source. Vader was also extremely powerful in the force, but was (or believed himself to be) weakened by his suit.

 

Giving it to neither. Not enough info.

 

Intelligence/tactics: Revan won a losing war not only as a powerful Jedi, but as a brilliant and cunning strategist. Anakin was never the sharpest tool in the shed, and his time as a dark lord didn't improve that terribly much.

 

Point Revan.

 

I would personally give the fight to Revan.

 

+1, but I'd say Revan was still more powerful in the force.

[-Axil-]

It's amusing that people are using Lucas quotes in their argument.. you realize Lucas doesn't recognize (or probable even know) half the EU... You may as well have Lucas tell you who would win between Vader and Superman.

 

Also, the question wasn't who was more powerful but who would win.. have you guys not noticed that every time there is an epic battle in Star Wars the more powerful guy loses?

 

Darth Maul gets the better of two jedi for most of a fight. Clearly more powerful.. loses.

 

Anakin supposedly most powerful force wielder ever... loses to Obi-Wan.

 

Emperor supposedly more powerful than burn-victim-vadar... loses

 

Thus we have to assume the weaker combatant would win this fight.