Vader vs Revan

[Rhyltran]

Yeah.... you act like Revan won against Vitate. He managed a knockback and then got pulverized.

 

 

Vitate was weaker than Sidious even with trinkets. Immortality and Power are not equal. Sidious did what Vitate did and more. He could create a Force Storm could consume a planet and make a wormhole. He destroyed fleets with his mind. Could transfer his very essence to another body, which basically is similar to immortality just in a different way.

 

Exactly. Not just that but if Luke didn't exist. Sidious probably would have lived on for eternity.

[BrandonSM]

And also may I add for those of you who use "Revan touched on Both Sides of the Force."

 

 

Vader was once a Jedi, actually one of the most skilled Jedi Knights of his time and then he became one of the most skilled Sith of all time.

[EwokJediFTW]

I say vader, cause he has a better defense, and he's more machine then man, so he can take more hits. Though Reven is younger, and faster. Thats pretty hard when it comes to stats. Though, from play in TFU *the force unleashed*, I can safely say Vader.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I say vader, cause he has a better defense, and he's more machine then man, so he can take more hits. Though Reven is younger, and faster. Thats pretty hard when it comes to stats. Though, from play in TFU *the force unleashed*, I can safely say Vader.

 

Not to mention being younger and faster doesn't mean anything for Vader, he has faced countless of enemies who were faster and younger then he was and still won.

[Donau]

Raw power, Vader

 

Skill and ability, Revan

 

Who would really win?

 

Kyle Katarn w/ the Valley of the Jedi

[shinyelf]

Yeah.... you act like Revan won against Vitate. He managed a knockback and then got pulverized.

 

 

Vitate was weaker than Sidious even with trinkets. Immortality and Power are not equal. Sidious did what Vitate did and more. He could create a Force Storm could consume a planet and make a wormhole. He destroyed fleets with his mind. Could transfer his very essence to another body, which basically is similar to immortality just in a different way.

 

Actually i stated that Revan was fighting against someone that was not only incredibly skilled in the force, but also someone who had the assistance of several powerful artefacts, and the knowledge from several lifetimes.

I also stated that Sidius never attained true immortality (transferring your essens is not true immortality as you still grow old and die íf you dont transfer at the right time) so we dont actually know if the ritual would require more power that Sidius could muster.

The argument that Sidius was all powerful is interesting, because the fact that he is all powerful is only shown in the EU, same as the fact that Revan is almost unbeatable, which has several times been discarded because EU had to be bigger and better.

 

Vader mey have touched both sides of the force, but he never united them, Revan did.

And unlike Anakin Revan was actually the most powerfull jedi of his time(Yoda and Windu would have destroyed Anakin)

[Ranebow]

It was only a matter of time before another of these threads popped up. Sorry, but Vader all the way. It's too bad we lost all the previous threads, there were some good arguments in Vader's favor, though they'll come back up. Simply put, canonically Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord of all time, and Vader was pretty close to that. He was strong enough to withstand a full blast of force lightning from the Master, and still toss him to his death.

 

 

 

Revan, on the other hand, was absolutely owned by Lord Vitiate (arguably the second most powerful Sith Lord of all time), to the point where an attack from his force lightning pretty much took him out of the fight.

 

 

 

The problem I have with all of this, and Vader in particular, is that while he's powerful, he's also an ancient relic by the time the audience comes to known him in the original films.

And even then, ancient relic is odd because it's only been what twenty-five years since he turned to the darkside (about the time Luke was born).

 

Furthering that, they don't realy depict him as being all that super awesome.

Obi Wan was battling him fine, until he let Vader kill him.

And of course previously Obi Wan who admitted to Anakin that he was a far better Jedi than Obi Wan would ever be, was able to hold him off on Mustafar and technically defeat him.

 

 

Sidious was one of the more powerful Sith, or so we're led to believe. He didn't steam roll Mace Windu, and I suppose he actually lost... until Anakin intervened.

And then Yoda fended him off (technically he lost I guess).

 

So Sidious isn't portrayed all that powerful either.

And he was also challenged by Marek, whom of course was trained by Vader, but Marek lost (technically).

 

Luke's rise to becoming a Jedi is laughable at best. His crash course training is ridiculous, and he manages to go toe to toe with Vader who is this supreme being, and even manages to defeat him (techincally..).

 

 

This is where the later films really managed to screw up the first ones, because all the flashy combat and extra attention to the prowess of the Jedi/Sith warriors, makes the Jedi/Sith in the original films look weak and silly.

 

 

And these discrepancies and inconsistencies are what make it really difficult to say whom is stronger than whom.

[Rhyltran]

Actually i stated that Revan was fighting against someone that was not only incredibly skilled in the force, but also someone who had the assistance of several powerful artefacts, and the knowledge from several lifetimes.

I also stated that Sidius never attained true immortality (transferring your essens is not true immortality as you still grow old and die íf you dont transfer at the right time) so we dont actually know if the ritual would require more power that Sidius could muster.

The argument that Sidius was all powerful is interesting, because the fact that he is all powerful is only shown in the EU, same as the fact that Revan is almost unbeatable, which has several times been discarded because EU had to be bigger and better.

 

Vader mey have touched both sides of the force, but he never united them, Revan did.

And unlike Anakin Revan was actually the most powerfull jedi of his time(Yoda and Windu would have destroyed Anakin)

 

Yes it is true immortality. Sidious was able to transfer even after death. If he died he became a Sith Ghost. As a Sith Ghost he was able to switch bodies. He died multiple times and still switched bodies. Revan was never unbeatable. Drew even stated as such. So you're wrong. Vitiate wasn't even as powerful as Sidious.

 

As for Ranebow.. read the novels. It makes it clear. Vader lost to Luke because he didn't hate him. He never had any intention of killing him. Luke admits in the jedi academy series that if Vader wanted him dead he would have been. This is confirmed by his commentary in return of the Jedi "You wouldn't kill me then you won't kill me now." and "I can feel the conflict within you!" Vader was struggling with his hate and the dark side their entire duel.

 

Sidious survived after his "Death" in the Death Star and returned far more powerful than before by switching to clone bodies of himself with essence transfer. These clone were in his physical prime and in them he was capable of unleashing force storms that had the power to destroy planets and entire starfleets.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Rhyltran

[RThanues]

I don't care who can beat who in a duel. Revan is by far more awesome just for being Revan.

[Twaggy]

Vader - hands down. Because George Lucas would have to approve the story; and he wouldn't let one of his characters be killed by an EU character.

 

this is a late reply but may i remind you Chewbacca died in the books and george allowed it. And he was killed by a moon hitting a planet by an EU race.

[BrandonSM]

The problem I have with all of this, and Vader in particular, is that while he's powerful, he's also an ancient relic by the time the audience comes to known him in the original films.

And even then, ancient relic is odd because it's only been what twenty-five years since he turned to the darkside (about the time Luke was born).

 

Furthering that, they don't realy depict him as being all that super awesome.

Obi Wan was battling him fine, until he let Vader kill him.

And of course previously Obi Wan who admitted to Anakin that he was a far better Jedi than Obi Wan would ever be, was able to hold him off on Mustafar and technically defeat him.

 

 

Sidious was one of the more powerful Sith, or so we're led to believe. He didn't steam roll Mace Windu, and I suppose he actually lost... until Anakin intervened.

And then Yoda fended him off (technically he lost I guess).

 

So Sidious isn't portrayed all that powerful either.

And he was also challenged by Marek, whom of course was trained by Vader, but Marek lost (technically).

 

Luke's rise to becoming a Jedi is laughable at best. His crash course training is ridiculous, and he manages to go toe to toe with Vader who is this supreme being, and even manages to defeat him (techincally..).

 

 

This is where the later films really managed to screw up the first ones, because all the flashy combat and extra attention to the prowess of the Jedi/Sith warriors, makes the Jedi/Sith in the original films look weak and silly.

 

 

And these discrepancies and inconsistencies are what make it really difficult to say whom is stronger than whom.

 

 

Mace is undoubtedly in the top 3 best duelists of all time in the SW Universe. And after he won, he still would have died if it weren't for Anakin. His lightsaber was about to fly out of his hand until Anakin started talking and Sidious began to act weak to try and persuade Anakin to help him.

 

Obi Wan was not battling Anakin fine on Mustafar. He could be barely block Anakin's attacks, Anakin was pushing him back extremely fast. It wasn't until he got the advantage of jumping on to land, where he destroyed Anakin.

 

And the fight between Obi Wan and Vader on the Death Star..? How do you even call that a fight? They talked for 2 minutes Vader took one slash at Obi Wan and Obi blocked. Had another dialogue line and then let Vader kill him.

 

The only reason Galen won against Vader was because of Sidious. Vader was toying with him the entire fight and Sidious's Invisible Dark Side Aura(There's a better) was making a great a influence on Galen and he had unlimited energy against Vader.. and the joke was on Vader.

 

 

 

Galen Marek challenged Sidious. In case you hadn't noticed, Marek lost and Sidious only got a burnt scratch. And then we get the novel in my hand. Marek was seconds before being engulfed into Sidious's influence and was seconds before turning around from the lightning and killing the rebels. He used all of his energy just to walk towards Sidious and put his hand and the most powerful's lightning reflected on himself. And then they were being electrucoted and then Marek realized SIdous was using the pain to make his power stronger and stronger.

 

And it ended in... well.. him blowing up.

 

 

Using Vader vs Luke as an example is becoming annoying. The only thing your showing is that Vader was a bad manipulator and bad at turning others to the Dark Side. Vader didn't want to kill his son and Luke was already a powerful duelist(Naturaul Master of Form V) Now If I am correct, somebody said using a quote from a novel or such, Vader had realized he was going to be replaced by Luke if Luke was turned. And if he wasn't turned he would die. So he began to anger Luke in the fight to make Luke strike down Vader so it wouldn't be the other way around.

 

But that may not be true, I just remember a bunch of people saying that in the posts pre-wipe.

[CormacAlClian]

Revan is leagues beyond Vader in the use of the force. Win Revan no contest.

 

Exactly.

[Rhyltran]

Exactly.

 

Uh. No. Proof?

[DarthPeterNorth]

Sorry but Star Wars is only about the movies. Everything outside that is fluff.

[Rhyltran]

Sorry but Star Wars is only about the movies. Everything outside that is fluff.

 

It isn't. There's more people that don't share your opinion than those that share it. The EU is huge. Big enough to allow games like this to be made.

[DarthPeterNorth]

It isn't. There's more people that don't share your opinion than those that share it. The EU is huge. Big enough to allow games like this to be made.

 

Sorry, i never gave credits to books or anything written after a movie. It creates a lot of crap like all those darth dudes with super powers or anakin shooting lightning from his hands in a game. It just deforms what was created.

 

Then again it's my choice.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Sorry, i never gave credits to books or anything written after a movie. It creates a lot of crap like all those darth dudes with super powers or anakin shooting lightning from his hands in a game. It just deforms what was created.

 

Then again it's my choice.

 

Actually the movie books were made and released before the movies themselves.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Wolfninjajedi

[lostshore]

Sorry, i never gave credits to books or anything written after a movie. It creates a lot of crap like all those darth dudes with super powers or anakin shooting lightning from his hands in a game. It just deforms what was created.

 

Then again it's my choice.

 

The EU is awesome. You should specifically check out some of the Dark Horse comics if you think the stuff outside the movies is silly. They are extremely well done and do nothing but add to canon in a very professional and satisfying way.

 

That being said, Vader is going to beat Revan in a fight. I love Revan, but Vader is the ultimate creation of thousands of years of Sith knowledge. It's not a knock against Revan that he'd lose to Vader; it's just acknowledging what Vader means to the Star Wars mythos. Saying anyone before him could beat him takes away a lot from the entire point of what he means to the plot of the films that all the other sources and lore revolve around.

 

I do think Revan would make a very good fight out of it, but really the only person in the pre-film EU that might beat Vader one-on-one is the TOR Emperor, and that's only because they made him so ridiculously powerful because every PC is supposed to feel as powerful as Revan by end-game, and he's supposed to be the biggest threat in the galaxy to Revan-level PCs.

[tlang]

You kill Revan in SWTOR. Your character is not recognized as being important enough to earn a place in SW history, no matter how cool it may be. Your accomplishments go only as far in the SW plot-line as this game continues, and no mention is or ever will be made in the subsequent timeline.

 

From this, we are forced to conclude that Revan is not as strong in combat as your character. Again, your character is not important enough to be remembered in SW history, and therefore not a fighter of such note that entire storyline arcs are devoted to you. Revan was a marvelous tactician, an inspiring leader, a pupil with almost unparalleled desire for knowledge, and above average at combat itself. He never went further than above average, as will be even more apparent as people in this game put him on farm status as nothing more than a loot dropper in a Heroic (4 man boss, feels bad man).

 

A character is more than how big their numbers are in a fight; Revan was one of the most influential characters in the SW universe, and nothing can change that. Not even the fact that his rebirth got rofl-stomped by an entire generation of players whose combat skills rank far above Revan's, but whose influence on the SW galaxy will never come close.

 

That being said, Vader was only ever defeated by people so important that they have series of books in EU dedicated to them.

 

Vader would kick Revan's **** in, sit down fanboys.

 

EDIT: For anyone who would like to bring up canon regarding Revan, do recall that he is Bioware's character, and they made him killable by our historically irrelevant characters.

 

Revan's 'death' is SWTOR is purly speculative. Based on conjecture rather than knowledge.

 

 

I'll admit that I didn't remember that line but it doesn't change the fact that the power he used was one that is known to be a light side technique. Perhaps he strengthened it by using "both sides of the force." but many people act as if he throws around dark and light powers at will when this isn't shown to be the case. Not only that but it doesn't seem to give him an extreme edge nor is there any proof that it's superior to using one side or the other. There's too many variables to even bring it up as an advantage.

 

Also, I never claimed Vader would "destroy" Revan. Not to my knowledge anyway. I do refute the posts stating Revan would stomp Vader into the ground. The main reasons why people claim Revan would destroy Vader is through examples that aren't really valid enough to use as comparison. The common ones people cite are..

 

"Revan uses light and dark." we don't know how much stronger this makes him. We also know he still lost to the Emperor who devoted himself fully to the dark side. Many have actually stated in this thread "Vader can't win because he's not a master of both sides." it's shown in the novel one doesn't need to be in order to defeat Revan.

 

The second one is.. "Revan uses force lightning and it'd fry Vader's life support." This one is debunked as well. Vader's suit was built to provide resistance against force lightning. Vader has endured under prolonged exposure from the strongest force lightning described. We don't know how strong Revan's force lightning is in comparison to Galen Marek's. There hasn't been an accurate description. Nor do we know if Revan would actually even use force lightning.

 

Those are the two biggest that people cite.

 

Thank you, Thank you! The people who said that are ignorant though. Like I said before, The Revan character is a difficult one for these depates because there's so much about him that is just unclear or undetailed. However to keep tha depate going so to speak, I'll add that Revan was locking in a cell for years just before facing Vitiate. And he was also betrayed, can't forget that part. Both good points.

 

I killed revan solo on the foundry with my bounty hunter. Nuff said.

 

Again. Revan's 'death' is SWTOR is based on conjecture. Nuff said.

Edited December 31, 2011 by tlang

[Rayla_Felana]

Revan's 'death' is SWTOR is purly speculative. Based on conjecture rather than knowledge.

 

 

 

 

Thank you, Thank you! The people who said that are ignorant though. Like I said before, The Revan character is a difficult one for these depates because there's so much about him that is just unclear or undetailed. However to keep tha depate going so to speak, I'll add that Revan was locking in a cell for years just before facing Vitiate. And he was also betrayed, can't forget that part. Both good points.

 

 

 

Again. Revan's 'death' is SWTOR is based on conjecture. Nuff said.

 

You're the most intelligent Revanite I've ever come across(if you don't mind being named such), Revan is one of the best and well written characters in the EU, but Vader really is far beyond Revan's abilities, Vader in the actual canon, the whole canon, is the most dominant lightsaber combatant i think we've ever seen, and he was practically unbeatable to anyone but Sidious, in my opinion Revan is equal to ROTJ Luke, some may agree or disagree with that, but as far as canon Luke goes, that's a major feat, although it's purely my opinion.

 

Also, you are correct, it isn't stated anywhere canonically that Revan is dead, this is purely assumption.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Rayla_Felana

[Darth-Malice]

Well since Revan went to Kyle Katarns school of Retcon I think the bigger question is which force users who uses both light and darkside would win? Kyle or Revan?

[Tarsh]

Palpatine was much more powerful than Exar Kun. Palpatine was able to mind wipe trillions of people at once, force drain trillions of people and empower himself, and on top of this unleash force storms that were capable of eliminating starfleets and even planets. This is without the use of Sith Amulets which is what Exar Kun relied upon for a great deal of his power. Even Naga Sadow had to use the meditation sphere as well as special "trinkets" to perform his best feats.

 

Sidious was capable of everything through his own will. Vitiate is said to also use a lot of artifacts/trinkets to empower himself as well. Which, again, Sidious needed nothing of.

 

As for credible sources..

 

“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

 

The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.” (Death Star, page 76)

 

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

 

"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"-- The Dark Empire Sourcebook.

 

“[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.”-- The Dark Side Sourcebook.

 

”Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.”-- The Complete Visual Dictionary.

 

"The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith's revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force." -- the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

 

"Only Palpatine has been able to spread his darkness completely and totally over an entire galaxy. What has proven to be the lasting genius of Palpatine as Emperor is his devotion to collecting all the knowledge of the Dark Side that he can, as well as what Light Side information he can corrupt and preserve. He is no more altruistic than any other, but his newfound immortality has given him the patience that all before him have lacked."

 

All of these sources are just as valid as any novel. Some came from novels. Oh and this came from Leland Chee..

 

"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."

 

Note that GL said that Vader is 80% as powerful as Sidious. Further note that Galen Marik, channeling the lightning from the pylons, and using it against Vader along with his own power (which was strong enough to incinerate a squadron of storm troopers and even down AT-AT's killing the people inside), could only drop Vader to his knees. These were full prolonged blasts.

 

Further note for the argument (People survive lightning..) and that's mainly due to how quickly lightning travels. Prolonged exposure to lightning would be.. impossible to survive for any human. Especially considering lightning is as hot as the surface of the sun. Considering that Vader was able to resist that level of lightning and not die? Yeah.. he's pretty resilient.

 

Am I stating "Vader will roflstomp Revan"? No. Just some things to consider before you call Vader weak. Not to mention he was capable of taking on 8 Jedi, even with a few masters thrown in there at the same time in an ambush or that he has displayed the same force potential as Galen which is.. immense.

 

ok then so by your logic, if this is all true, then Darth Plageius is the most powerful sith ever in existence being that Sidious was his understudy who eventually killed him in his sleep and used his masters power to manipulate the force and ultimately create Anakin

[biowareftw]

Lucas has been pretty clear on this. Things he has said.

 

1. Anakin had the most potential ever, but after being cut in half by Obi-won he could never be as powerful as his potential. Lucas has said Anakin was stronger then Vader barely.

 

2. Luke had the same potential as his father and was able to reach that potential. Luke is the most powerful Jedi/Sith to ever live by a landslide...period.

 

3. Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Yoda was his equal and it is debatable whether Revan was even as powerful as Yoda. We have no idea if his duel with Mace Windu was a set up. He may have lost on purpose and Mace Windu was considered one of the greatest duelists ever.

 

Speculation (HK voice): Revan probably would have probably beaten Vader.

 

Fact: Luke on the other hand could have dispatched Revan without breaking a sweat, as would an Anakin who reached his full potential. Luke basically became god incarnate.

 

Speculation: Palpatine vs Revan. Close one. Revan is as strong as they come outside of someone "born of the force" or Luke, and so is Palpatine. Same would apply to Yoda. Revan is no Luke or an Anakain who would have reached his potential though. Noone is.

Edited December 31, 2011 by biowareftw

[BrandonSM]

ok then so by your logic, if this is all true, then Darth Plageius is the most powerful sith ever in existence being that Sidious was his understudy who eventually killed him in his sleep and used his masters power to manipulate the force and ultimately create Anakin

 

We don't know enough about Plagueis. Apparently I am at a confuzzled situation.

 

Lucas said, Sidious was the most powerful Sith Ever.

 

Leland Chee said, Sidious was the most powerful Sith Ever.

 

Yet on the back of the cover of the Darth Plagueis, what does it say?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Darth_Plagueis

 

Plagueis being the most powerful Sith Lord Ever.

 

Wut?

Edited December 31, 2011 by BrandonSM

[biowareftw]

We don't know enough about Plagueis. Apparently I am at a confuzzled situation.

 

Lucas said, Sidious was the most powerful Sith Ever.

 

Leland Chee said, Sidious was the most powerful Sith Ever.

 

Yet on the back of the cover of the Darth Plagueis, what does it say?

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Darth_Plagueis

 

Plagueis being the most powerful Sith Lord Ever.

 

Wut?

 

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend on a certain point of view.

 

At that time Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. When Sidious reached his full potential, he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Sidious accomplished more then any Sith Lord ever and clouded even Yoda whom was at that time probably the most powerful Jedi to ever reach his potential.

 

Let me make it easy for you. Luke = Anakin whom would have reached his potential> Sidious = or slightly above Yoda> everyone else with some like Revan perhaps being equal, but to say that is pure speculation. All we know is Vader was weaker then Anakin from Lucas and Anakin at that time was in no way close to Sidious or Yoda.

 

Go to Wookiepedia and look up Luke Skywalker. There is no debate on who the most powerful force user/duelist to ever live was, and Revan is not even in the discussion. If Revan was the "heart of the force", Luke was god incarnate.

Edited December 31, 2011 by biowareftw