1.1 Changes for Jugg

[Veult]

I totally agree with the constructive posts above.

 

Even though we are supposed to be a tank we arent really able to tank. It feels as if most attacks in pvp ignore most our armor like it would be light armor. Give us more defence against internal damage.

 

There is alot Room for improvement. Also I would say Saber Ward CD needs to be lowered to 1.5min. Just take a look at Sith Inq, it feels like their static barrier is ready to use every couple sec after the effect is over.

 

Another problem is smash. While the dps is nice its hard to use in pvp. First you have to get 4 shockwave ticks and once you trigger smash it fails cuz you get knocked back, targets ran away or while running it hits at the point where you clicked the button, instead where you land. All the Tick building for nothing.

 

Also buff our damage please. I wouldnt call it balanced if the Sith warrior needs at least 4 pieces to deal serious damage or become a threat.

 

 

To sum up what we need from my pov:

- lower the cooldown of Saber Ward

- increase our Defence especially against internal damage

- change smash to deal damage where you land

- boost our damage so that also people enjoy playing this class who don't have that much time for pvp

[Alchies]

Endure pain is a life saver. I already loved my jugg to death, new patch is simply amazing. Double force charge. I can travel 90 meters in 3 seconds, yay.

 

1.5 minute on endure pain?! Sure! It's usually on cooldown too much, often lose some fights with the opponent having 5% hp left. It can be of great assistance.

 

Certainly don't mean to be a troll and go all like "lol l2p" knowing only our rage spec is really viable. But us juggs really don't have it that bad.

 

And to the poster above me, yes I must admit we certainly are glass cannons.

 

All the players complaining really need to be more patient, and farm some better gear and/or hit level 50. Or try a class more suited to them.

 

 

But in huttball when you leap to a mage, KNOCK THEM THE HELL DOWN!

It's what I always do, but I'd always have to walk all the way downstairs to them by then they usually stood up already. But now I can leap to a sorcerer/bh on a platform > Push > charge again aaaand.. carnage.

 

All I'd really like right now is a shorter cooldown on Unleash without it costing points. Also, I don't want t o have to face a enemy to use it.. That's like having to face an enemy to buff yourself.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Alchies

[HarvardAce]

I don't understand people complaining that Endure Pain can kill you.

 

In ANY case where Endure Pain reduces your health to 1 at the end of its effect, you WOULD HAVE DIED without it.

 

In solo PVE, that basically gives you an extra 10 seconds (15 with talents) to kill whatever it is you are fighting and quickly pop Channel Hatred (in case you have a DoT on you).

 

In group PVE, it's a good "oh $%#$" button that gives your healer an extra couple seconds to get a heal on you before you die (in situations where the healer gets CCed or the boss did a lot of burst damage on you).

 

In PVP, it gives you extra time to do whatever it is you are doing. Yes, you are probably going to die in the end, but you survived an extra few seconds because of the ability. So what if you die at the end? By living an extra few seconds, you may have scored with the ball, killed the ball carrier, held off the attackers at Voidstar or Alderaan just long enough for reinforcements to arrive, etc.

 

The force push resetting force charge also is big for Huttball, which for most Juggernauts is 75% of the warzones you play anyway. Force charge to an enemy right in front of a fire pit, force push him to the other side, and then force charge to him again, and you just covered about 50-60m in 4.5 seconds. It also is handy on defense when you try to force push the ball carrier off the platform and for whatever reason you end up pushing the ball carrier forward...now at least you can get to him again and start beating on him.

[FerrusPA]

I don't see anything that helps with tanking in PvE. It still consists of stupidly running around trying to keep or get aggro and our only reliable threat-generator is still on a 1min cooldown.

[Lord_Itharius]

- increase our Defence especially against internal damage

 

That's the point of internal damage. Else there'd be no reason for operatives to exist in PvP.

[Sirranter]

i think the point most people are missing with this "omg 1 hp" argument is that w/o the endure pain you'd be dead anyway, so endure pain gives you the chance to be healed up or finish a fight, also pop your pvp medpac since its % of hp based, think of creative ways to improve yourself w/ endure pain rather just going "THIS IS AWFUL REMOVE IT"

 

as from a raiding standpoint, this is great, gives you more tank CDs especially for the groups just starting raids and dungeons

[Aikagi]

i think the point most people are missing with this "omg 1 hp" argument is that w/o the endure pain you'd be dead anyway, so endure pain gives you the chance to be healed up or finish a fight, also pop your pvp medpac since its % of hp based, think of creative ways to improve yourself w/ endure pain rather just going "THIS IS AWFUL REMOVE IT"

 

as from a raiding standpoint, this is great, gives you more tank CDs especially for the groups just starting raids and dungeons

I think a lot of people mentioned that though. Endure Pain is great if you have an healer. I mean as you say, in raids it can be exceptionally useful. Especially if you know you're about to take spike damage from a boss. However, if you wanted to improve survivability overall, even without an healer, reducing the CD of the other defensive cooldowns would have been more preferable.

[Sirranter]

I think a lot of people mentioned that though. Endure Pain is great if you have an healer. I mean as you say, in raids it can be exceptionally useful. Especially if you know you're about to take spike damage from a boss. However, if you wanted to improve survivability overall, even without an healer, reducing the CD of the other defensive cooldowns would have been more preferable.

 

The best thing probly in that case would be to drop invincible down a tier and allow all jugg specs access to it, some my say thats too OP or whatever, but if a class is more about survivability, then give us the survivability to sustain a fight to where we could potentionally win. At the end of the day it comes down to the skill of the player over the gear(assuming the 50's are in their own bracket), and clever use of mechanics/player position to be mobile on the field, straight defensive CDs dont honestly have to be the only determinant of survivabiltiy, skilled use of a force push + an intercede to break out of a fight can keep you alive, people should just be happy that the CD is getting cut in half and play with the mechanics given to them, if you dont like your class mechanics, theres 7 other advanced classes you can choose from

[Farabee]

I don't see anything that helps with tanking in PvE. It still consists of stupidly running around trying to keep or get aggro and our only reliable threat-generator is still on a 1min cooldown.

 

 

This. This right here.

 

We need some way to round up ranged mobs, like an AOE force pull. Running around like a headless chicken is stupid. We also need a general threat buff. Even using backhand and crushing blow every time they're off CD I lose threat to a well-geared DPS near the end of a fight, especially marauders.

 

Our PVE survivability is alright, now buff our threat, and make tanking HM FPs less like herding cats.

[Hizoka]

a well played marauder will out threat any tank not just juggs, marauders should ALWAYS have guard on them if not other reason then to lower their threat.

 

I love seeing tanks throw guard on a healer when the healer is never in range to actually get guarded.

[Noth]

I don't understand people complaining that Endure Pain can kill you.

 

In ANY case where Endure Pain reduces your health to 1 at the end of its effect, you WOULD HAVE DIED without it.

 

In solo PVE, that basically gives you an extra 10 seconds (15 with talents) to kill whatever it is you are fighting and quickly pop Channel Hatred (in case you have a DoT on you).

 

In group PVE, it's a good "oh $%#$" button that gives your healer an extra couple seconds to get a heal on you before you die (in situations where the healer gets CCed or the boss did a lot of burst damage on you).

 

In PVP, it gives you extra time to do whatever it is you are doing. Yes, you are probably going to die in the end, but you survived an extra few seconds because of the ability. So what if you die at the end? By living an extra few seconds, you may have scored with the ball, killed the ball carrier, held off the attackers at Voidstar or Alderaan just long enough for reinforcements to arrive, etc.

 

The force push resetting force charge also is big for Huttball, which for most Juggernauts is 75% of the warzones you play anyway. Force charge to an enemy right in front of a fire pit, force push him to the other side, and then force charge to him again, and you just covered about 50-60m in 4.5 seconds. It also is handy on defense when you try to force push the ball carrier off the platform and for whatever reason you end up pushing the ball carrier forward...now at least you can get to him again and start beating on him.

 

If you die anyways, it did nothing to actually help with your survivability. If you had to have a healer or pop a squat right after a fight or die, it did not help your survivability as that is currently what we have to do now. To increase our survivability we need either something to give more mitigation on a reasonable cooldown, or a passive mitigation increase (why does everyone seem to get shorter cooldown defensives than the jugg) a self heal, or kill faster. Any of those would work. A cooldown that give you more time but end up basically killing you is not improving your survivability. Yes it's good in certain situations, but the jugg needs a general survivability increase, not just a situational one.

 

Oh another solution would be to have heavy armor actually mean something.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Noth

[Lymain]

What are you talking about? Do you play a Juggernaut? You pop Endure Pain, you gain 30% more MAX health, so lets say I only have 1,000 HP left out of a 10,000 HP pool, when I pop Endure pain my Max health goes up to 13,000 hp and I get healed for 3,000 HP jumping to 4,000 HP left, after the 10s expire I go back to 10,000 Max hp losing the 3,000 I gained, if that loss would take me less than 1 then I just drop to 1, this is actually a bonus that other games don't have because in most when the effect fades if you don't have enough health you just die.

 

It's actually even better than that. You get healed for 30% of the value of your max health with Endure Pain active, so instead of getting healed for 3K in your example, you'd get healed for (13K*0.3=) 3900.

[Yssta]

The one thing we DON'T have issues with is mobility. With this buff, we have more mobility than any warrior-style class I've ever seen in my life. In my opinion, if you have trouble staying in melee range of your opponents, you just don't have the experience that a long-time melee class player has. It is easily done. It doesn't mean that you're a bad player if you can't do it; it just means that you don't have the mindset that many of us have cultivated over long years of playing melee in MMOs.

 

What I just don't understand is how they say that our damage is on-par.

 

It isn't. It isn't even close.

 

 

I play Vengeance very well. I know what I'm doing. I sustain a damn-near flawless rotation. I have gear. And frankly, it's insulting to see them say that we "perform" when our damage is simply lesser than others who have to work half as hard.

 

I play multiple classes. I look at the damage other classes put out, and it is simply higher and easier to put out (2 button classes, anyone?) than juggernaut dps in both PvE and PvP situations.

 

I just don't comprehend what they're saying. We are not performing damage-wise.

[tyliin]

Our PVE survivability is alright, now buff our threat, and make tanking HM FPs less like herding cats.

 

/cosign it really makes HM's frustrating

[Noth]

The one thing we DON'T have issues with is mobility. With this buff, we have more mobility than any warrior-style class I've ever seen in my life. In my opinion, if you have trouble staying in melee range of your opponents, you just don't have the experience that a long-time melee class player has. It is easily done. It doesn't mean that you're a bad player if you can't do it; it just means that you don't have the mindset that many of us have cultivated over long years of playing melee in MMOs.

 

What I just don't understand is how they say that our damage is on-par.

 

It isn't. It isn't even close.

 

 

I play Vengeance very well. I know what I'm doing. I sustain a damn-near flawless rotation. I have gear. And frankly, it's insulting to see them say that we "perform" when our damage is simply lesser than others who have to work half as hard.

 

I play multiple classes. I look at the damage other classes put out, and it is simply higher and easier to put out (2 button classes, anyone?) than juggernaut dps in both PvE and PvP situations.

 

I just don't comprehend what they're saying. We are not performing damage-wise.

 

I disagree that we have enough mobility, neither do any of my guild mates that fight them. Sorcs, snipers and a good merc that doesn't spam tracer missile can kite us really easily.

[Warlocc]

I'm gonna echo others- How does this help PvE at all, particularly tanking difficult stuff/ranged mobs?

[Yssta]

I disagree that we have enough mobility, neither do any of my guild mates that fight them. Sorcs, snipers and a good merc that doesn't spam tracer missile can kite us really easily.

 

That's what I'm talking about. The weakness of melee is that you can only hit things up close, and are thus easily kiteable. If you do away with that weakness, it makes you overpowered versus ranged classes, and thus are forced into a lower damage output as a result.

[Khabarach]

I'm gonna echo others- How does this help PvE at all, particularly tanking difficult stuff/ranged mobs?

Simples. There's often groups with one mob off to the side. Force Leap him, push him towards the rest, then force leap into the middle of them and smash.

 

As an aside, has anyone noticed with the patch the change to Intimidating Roar? We are now the only class to be able to make people roll on the floor laughing. Me likes.

[Noth]

That's what I'm talking about. The weakness of melee is that you can only hit things up close, and are thus easily kiteable. If you do away with that weakness, it makes you overpowered versus ranged classes, and thus are forced into a lower damage output as a result.

 

We already hit for less than ranged classes (per hit outside of the smash build, seriously, I've had my level 11 sniper do over 5k in 1 gcd.). Another gap closer would not make us unkitable either. It would only even the playing field so we are sitting ducks as often.

[Yssta]

We already hit for less than ranged classes (per hit outside of the smash build, seriously, I've had my level 11 sniper do over 5k in 1 gcd.). Another gap closer would not make us unkitable either. It would only even the playing field so we are sitting ducks as often.

 

Honestly, I have NEVER been a sitting duck. Ever. For any reason.

 

As a melee class, it requires planning and strategy to corner someone, or clever use of line of sight as to not get owned by a ranged class before you can get to them. Just running straight at a ranged class in an open field is dumb.

 

All our class needs to be effective is a damage buff and for mitigation to be fixed.

[Noth]

Honestly, I have NEVER been a sitting duck. Ever. For any reason.

 

As a melee class, it requires planning and strategy to corner someone, or clever use of line of sight as to not get owned by a ranged class before you can get to them. Just running straight at a ranged class in an open field is dumb.

 

All our class needs to be effective is a damage buff and for mitigation to be fixed.

 

Which makes us sitting ducks. I'm sorry getting blasted to death while seeking to LoS in hopes that they chase us is being a sitting duck. If they don't chase chances are you will get to leap to them and be either stunned, knocked back, etc. We are sitting ducks against good ranged players. I've brought down level 40+ juggs and marauders in warzones on a level 11-12 sniper by playing cat and mouse with them (basically what you say melees need to do).

[dargor-]

I'm gonna echo others- How does this help PvE at all, particularly tanking difficult stuff/ranged mobs?

 

Bingo.

 

Still waiting on PvE buffs Bioware, you better not disapoint ...

[bliapis]

yesterday comming 1.1 and doing pvp, the charge-> push -> charge was quite awasome and beyond my expections really. I was full with rage in no time and carried on hunting down ppl. Also the revamped timer on EP was a lifesaver and a much critical powerup.

[Kippps]

As a level 27 Jugg, Immoral spec, taking a break from a level 40 Operative, i'm nervously awaiting the point where I hit this brick wall in the late game. With all the complaints about bloated ability bars, DPS output and the like, it seems odd that the main element they tackled seems to be longer cooldowns getting shortened, but not to a point where they could be used twice in the same fight.

 

I hope that these issues get sorted out before I reach the 40s. I'm not wanting a walk in the park, but a fair challenge would be nice, one to the same difficulty as any other class. In PvE, which is what I prefer, BHs seem to have it easier.

[Naselus]

Have to say, I really don't see the point in the endure pain buff. At all. Those who said the class was OK as-is didn't need it; those who said the class was overcomplicated/needed buffing asked for more or less everything except this.

 

Endure pain is the lowest priority panic button. I think I used it like twice prior to level 50, and one of those was by accident. A reduction on saber ward c/d would have made a hell of a lot more sense for survivability on all three specs. Anything in PvE which does enough burst damage for a short-term health buff with no heal included to be useful will kill you in a minute c/d just as surely as it would in a three minute c/d.

 

Charge/push/charge is quite useful for grouping those mob packs with one ranged stood off to the side, and makes stunlocking easier (tho no more repeatable) in PvP, but isn't exactly a big help for survivability or damage output.