Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

[Red_Cruiser]

Probably because level 50 tank characters are hard enough to kill as it is, and the defensive cooldowns are not by any means that long. If tanks got any beefier, it would get ridiculous.

[CHRISGG]

So ALL attacks that are not weapon damage are mitigated by saber ward? Even elemental ones like fire?

 

If the attack does yellow damage, it's governed by your tech or force stats rather than your melee or ranged stats. Doesn't matter what damage type it is, these skills get hit by saber ward equally (25%) and they also still get hit by any other tech/force or blanket damage reductions talents or abilities you may have.

[VoidSpectre]

This is atrocious. defense doesn't need to affect everything, but shield chance is the basis of 2/3 of the tanks.

 

 

that just made my darkness assassin tank sad

[Kharnski]

Force isn't a damage type it's an ability type. Internal and Elemental damage attacks that are considered "Force" (IE: Not from a blaster) are mitigated by Saber Ward.

 

This was misleading because the Guardian force attacks actually explicitly say Force, whereas Sage/Sorc do not. The game has been out for three weeks, being mistaken on something that is not stated clearly in the game doesnt mean we dont actually play the game. Regardless, Im not going to stray from the issue at hand.

 

Saber Ward is good for it's massive defensive value, not the minor damage mitigation. When Sorcs completely ignore that (basically 75% defensive chance, and 100% defense with blade turning), you evaporate.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kharnski

[VoidSpectre]

This was misleading because the Guardian force attacks actually explicitly say Force, whereas Sage/Sorc do not. The game has been out for three weeks, being mistaken on something that is not stated clearly in the game doesnt mean we dont actually play the game. Regardless, Im not going to stray from the issue at hand.

 

Saber Ward is good for it's massive defensive value, not the minor damage mitigation. When Sorcs completely ignore that (basically 75% defensive chance, and 100% defense with blade turning), you evaporate.

 

i'm pretty sure everything besides the 2 starting melee moves a sage or sorc does is force

 

 

 

but that's kind off topic.

 

shields need to affect more!

[Hypernetic]

All of this would be solved by a combat log.

[MelkorHero]

I personally play a level 50 Immortal Sith warrior.

 

I've done a lot of Warzones and I'm almost in full Champion gear.

 

I like the class personally, I've always felt squishy thought, except of course when I pop my three defensive cooldown :

-Endure pain (30% total HP)

-Saber Ward (Parry and deflect 50%+20%) Now I'm being told it's almost useless for the 50%

-Invincible (40% Now we're talking)

 

With this... alright fine, I can take as many things you want to throw at me. But what about my *********** gear.

 

I've always felt squishy, it's from the point I started getting gear and played immortal that I felt... durable (without a healing bot). I played rage gearless... oh ma fking god, the rage. The need to destroy that screen and keyboard... I was a real life Sith Warrior raging at the thought of playing Rage/Vengence gearless.

 

What happened? I rush leveled a level 50 sorcerer only to start playing again as the Immortal warrior.

 

I do enjoy the pvp as a immortal tank, but I take half gear Dps and half gear Tank. Now what I'm being told here is that I could focus on dps gear, stick with immortal for the abilities and still be as hard? This is complete ******** and I'll try for certain! FFS!. I mean I could even try going back with Rage spec for the nice DPS and see how hard I am. I'll probably make a new post to see the difference.

 

Because in the end... all that I loose is Invincible (A big lost... but still...). We'll see

[BobaFurz]

This is a joke. I'm wondering how I didn't notice the lack of shield and dodge against pretty much every attack in the game, but it sure as hell makes a lot of sense now.

 

This topic, like a few have said, should be at 20+ pages. It is something so basic that I would never have even thought about it. I tested it as a Defensive Guardian with full champion gear in duels against both a gunslinger and a commando, and it is completely true. Grav rounds hit for full damage every single time, no shield. All of the gunslingers attacks aside from the bleed shot and the explosives (aka the entire sharpshooter tree) can be dodged, deflected and shielded against.

 

The Gunslinger is level 50 with near full pvp gear, the Commando is level 41 (obviously no PvP gear), and the Commando spamming grav round was keeping up with the Gunslinger. I just sat there against the Gunslinger unloading on me watching deflections and shield procs flying off. This explains why the Gunslinger and I do absolutely no damage to Powertechs and Juggernauts in PvP when we pair off, as we both have basic weapon damage attacks that they mitigate.

 

This also explains why Sorcs absolutely destroy me. My bonus stats do absolutely nothing against them. Saber Ward does nothing against them. I dont even get to reflect to use riposte, not that it matters as it just adds 6% defense which does nothing anyways.

 

This also explains why I just shrug off marauders. It explains why with Sorcerors, Bounty Hunters and Operatives being 3 of the most popular classes (as opposed to the Rep side with Sentinels and Guardians, who do crap basic weapon damage, being the most popular) we constantly get nuked.

 

So basically I do crap damage and can shrug off damage only slightly better than DPS classes (due to Soresu Armour increase). Awesome.

 

Greath thread and very interesting infos in this comment....this toppic is really eye opening how classes work currently when it comes to defence mechanism. You guys should video it and post it again so the infos gets more spread.

[Nikodeamas]

Probably because level 50 tank characters are hard enough to kill as it is, and the defensive cooldowns are not by any means that long. If tanks got any beefier, it would get ridiculous.

 

 

Hard enough to kill as it is?

 

Are you 1v1'ing or something?? Im not.. and the vast majority of any PvP in this game isnt 1v1 either. Sadly its usually a few 50s curbstomping herds of lowbies running like chickens around a farmyard, but thats another story for another time.

 

 

Back to my point... 1v1 all things equal, yes i do feel "tougher" however, as for real pvp, or 99% of PvP in this game the only differences i see are when heals are involved. Many times, sadly more often than not, there isnt a healer behind me spamming heals uninterrupted. In those times, i go down just a few seconds slower than a normal player in decent gear spec'd to just dps. You act as if we have cooldown after cooldown after cooldown we can use to reach some type of unkillable status...

 

Ive seen 50s put out damage on a scale that i couldnt hope to do 3 fights in a row, much less in rapid succession moving from person to person. The reason we are supposed to be "beefy" as you put it is because frankly our damage sucks. A lot. And #2 The guarding system. Many times a healer just isnt around, so im guarding whoever is near me achieving the objective that is called for, id like to make use of these mechanics...as was advertised.

 

Of course armour count aka physical mitigation shouldnt mitigate many abilities which would be similar to "spell damage" in other games. (i agree with ChrissGG) Which leads me to my next point..

 

The shield generator system/absorption mechanics should! Or was supposed to by my understanding and ultimately... seeing my shield pop up is like a super rare proc that just saved me 34 whole points of damage. Or thats what it feels like anyway. It doesnt happen very often and if i didnt know better, it was just a pretty graphic that lasted briefly.

 

Compared to in PvE, its quite different and very, very fun. (in my opinion) Its just such a contrast i think something is wrong and/or their is an oversight.... somewhere. Because when you get used to the routine of guarding the focused and taunting the main threat, even knowing you cant be the alpha main damage dealer, it can be quite fun and i can see where the designers were going with it. I just wish it was more apparent to the player im actually supporting in some way.

 

The whole guarding and defensive options in this game is like a whole other fun minigame in and of itself and after people really catch on it would become popular or iconic like healing on a totally different level than most games. It can be really effective..

 

I can only reduce his damage by 50% for 6 seconds every 15 or so seconds but if you can do these things at the right times while you already switched guard to that target (if possible) can be fun.. even though ****we***** are taking the damage of the guard as in the description. Its not like we are 3 shotting people, why can we not at least make use of the "shielding and absorption" properties to really make a fun experience...

 

I dont know, just my thoughts. I just had big plans for my character >.>

Edited January 10, 2012 by Nikodeamas

[CHRISGG]

yeah shield chance not working on yellow attacks absolutely has to be changed, it's completely gamebreaking for tank characters

 

for an example i'm sure anyone with white attacks can relate to, you know when you're attacking a tank and your usually 1000 damage attack only hits for 400?

 

Yeah, that's shield chance.

 

Now imagine how much survivability tanks are losing when this only works on something like 50% of the attacks in the game.

Edited January 10, 2012 by CHRISGG

[JefferyClark]

It compounds with the fact internal and elemental damage ignores armor.

 

Honestly, this is the big difference. Unless you are going up another tank (JK/SW), the damage you are taking is either elemental or internal/force damage. Which means our heavy armor does jack all against every other class except our mirror.

[Dalnar]

Aaah good that I'm collecting DPS heavy armour for my Guardian...I have always felt "defense" stats fishy in pvp.

 

I pitty all those defense guardians tho, an useless stat is on their gear, together with subpar set ability.

[CHRISGG]

Honestly, this is the big difference. Unless you are going up another tank (JK/SW), the damage you are taking is either elemental or internal/force damage. Which means our heavy armor does jack all against every other class except our mirror.

 

That's not true at all, I don't know where you got this idea. The vast majority of abilities deal damage that's hit by armor. Most classes get maybe 2 or 3 that aren't.

[Errthu]

Also We should notice that RAGE specced Juggernaut/Guardians/Sentinels/Marauders also do Yellow damage. Force crush/Force choke/Smash - Force abilities - and it's where 90% of dps coming from.

 

And this is the most popular pvp spec for warriors.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Errthu

[chainsawsamurai]

That's not true at all, I don't know where you got this idea. The vast majority of abilities deal damage that's hit by armor. Most classes get maybe 2 or 3 that aren't.

 

It was a bit of an exaggeration, Armor is one of the only stats you can sort of count on. Most of the classes have to deal with Armor.

 

Really though, Expertise is the most reliable defensive statistic in this game, and everyone gets access to the same amount.

[Lord_Karsk]

Nice thread, i like it. Loots of good reading.

[NinjaScroll]

Great post.

[catchdeathwalker]

You more or less hit the nail on the head. Shield rating and absorption are the only worthwhile tanking stats whatsoever. Armor is useless and defense is useless.

 

Basically you want mitigation that's not situational and you only have two ways to do it. Abilities on huge cooldowns and your shields.

 

It's absurd.

 

Problem here is this. As a Sith assassin, most of the stats are defence and not shield/absorption. Pretty sad that it's broken and they are not fixing it. Been a bug since beta.

[Scelerant]

I wonder how long it will take before game designers realize that tanks need higher mitigation for all damage, otherwise you end up with the vanilla wow syndrome where classes that are largely not mitigated rip through tanks, which kinda renders tanks as a low dps/high HP version of a dps.

[Sandzibar]

you are of course assuming its broken... seems to me that its been designed this way to make most of the classes have similar amounts of survivability potential.

 

also goes hand in hand with the -30% heal debuff in pvp - to prevent unkillable healers and tanks that require 3 or 4 dps to drop. makes the game more about tactics, awareness, skill and a closer 1 v 1 matchup in general.

 

but then you have the lol OPs and scoundrels 4 shotting people whilst jacked up on biochems and expertise stims.. but im sure theyll be made more reasnoble soon. maybe.

 

where it all falls down however is putting these useless stats on pvp gear - and not actually telling us that this is how defensive stats work (or rather dont) in pvp.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Sandzibar

[Darth_Sookie]

The idea of mitigating dmg from 4/8 classes in the game sucks to you?

 

Would you say the same if you could only do reasonable damage to 4/8 classes?

 

NO

[Riulassher]

you are of course assuming its broken... seems to me that its been designed this way to make most of the classes have similar amounts of survivability potential.

 

also goes hand in hand with the -30% heal debuff in pvp - to prevent unkillable healers and tanks that require 3 or 4 dps to drop. makes the game more about tactics, awareness, skill and a closer 1 v 1 matchup in general.

 

but then you have the lol OPs and scoundrels 4 shotting people whilst jacked up on biochems and expertise stims.. but im sure theyll be made more reasnoble soon. maybe.

 

where it all falls down however is putting these useless stats on pvp gear - and not actually telling us that this is how defensive stats work (or rather dont) in pvp.

 

Shield mitigation will hardly make tanks immortal.

 

50% shield chance with 50% shield absorption will result in a 25% damage blocked over time. And that's on the higher end of tank gear/trinket setup.

 

33% shield tank, 33% absorption does only about 11% damage mitigation over time. Good, but not great.

[Xsorus]

Welcome to what I've been saying for almost a month now on the boards.

 

I could give you a link to the stupidity displayed on the BountyHunter Forums concerning abilities but It's honestly an embarrassment.

 

Long story short, we have players on the BH forums that talk about how terrible Advanced Prototype is, one particular terrible player thinks 20% damage reduction while stunned Is not worth picking up in PvP.. because he said, he just pops his 2 min cooldown CC break *grin*

 

Anyway, I learned very early on that AP is a better tanking line then Shield Tech for Bountyhunters based on that single talent alone, You're stunned.. all the time in PVP, taking 20% less damage while stunned is worth it and is far better then anything you get in Shield Tech, because while stunned, You don't block.. you don't defend, You just take damage.

 

This is why when I see threads crying about Operatives for example, I laugh, I've had Battlemaster operatives on my server not even take 10% of my life away on my powertech after the knockdown.

[Goonbandito]

Shield doesn't work on anything but Weapon attacks.

 

Defence doesn't work on Tech/Force attacks.

 

What's the point in gearing towards a tank in PvP? All those tokens spent on the tank gear are now just wasted. I could have bought the DPS gear, had almost the same survivability and do far more DPS.

[iFoo]

Interesting read, skimmed a few bits but read the majority.

 

This is going to mostly effect sins, who I only have a problem with in 1v1 because they go in to hide, if they can't do that then they die. Ops can do crazy damage yes but are also very weak to force attacks and are squishy with no real gap closers but with AoE slow, CC, Choke, force push and 40% speed increase (after impale on rage tree) they can be kited ready for force charge + following rotation.

 

I don't really see how this changes much, this is the way the game is as we play it now and I'm still enjoying it, though it does help to know that it's a safer bet to use kinetic dmg vs a sin that's for sure! But how sins are at the moment I don't think it would be fair if they went tank spec and could defend against all kind of attack. Force speed, anti cc, shields, high dps + hide would be too much. Sins are a pain in the arse in huttball as it is, if they could defence against every move everyone would just reroll one (oh wai.. loads are!).

 

As a Juggernaught I love my class, frustrating in 1v1's but I am a support class at the end of the day and popping relics with saber ward makes us very hard to kill when we are getting burst dmg.

 

Do you have proof of these findings/how have you worked them out?

Edited January 10, 2012 by iFoo