Mitigation, the REAL problem. Also, operatives need a 2x dmg multiplier.

[rmdw]

Bump,

 

This goes some way to explain while my survivability seems the same on my Guardian - whether I wear my DPS or Tank set (full lvl 50 epic/artifact for both with champion pieces where I have them).

[DarthOvertone]

After the initial burst I pop my rakatan medpac, activate my ward, immortal, and occasionally pop my trinkets and more just to survive the damage from one character.

 

Tanks are in an odd spot in PvP. Ideally, a Tank would build for survivability. But if you just build for survivability, your lightsaber will be nothing but a butter-knife in fights and you will just die anyway. I don't know the skills or mechanics of the Jugg. I play a Shadow, which is a bit of a different Tank altogether anyway.

 

From what I've gathered in PvP combat, both OPvP and WZs, is Shadow Tanks are designed to blow their cds at all times. There seems to be a simple rotation to follow including Kinetic Ward/Resilience/Deflection/Consumable. My Shadow stopped stacking +Def and pushed all defensive buffs into Shield Absorb, mainly because Kinetic Ward is up at all times and trumps the +Def due to the buff.

 

At the same time, he gears for DPS with a secondary dump into +Power. It's pretty clear, and no real surprise, that DPS is King in PvP combat. I figure my Shadow has a +3%-5% Survivability edge over a DPS specced toon due to his skills. In that short little window, he has to kill the opponent. A butter-knife just won't suffice.

 

My one question is in regard to CC. If you are CC'd, due your defensive buffs still work? I only ask because I can't remember the last time my toon mitigated or absorbed anything when stunned or mezzed. If this is the case, I consider this a poor mechanic for Tanks. Granted, we shouldn't still possess all of our defensive buffs while CC'd, but a percentage should still be in effect. However, this is an unknown for me. Possibly someone has an answer...

[Boarg]

(posted this in the other thread, too)

 

On the subject of tank mitigation in PvP… It depends what class and what abilities you are looking at.

 

As one example, here are the primary damage sources you would see fighting against a Infiltration spec Jedi Shadow:

 

Clairvoyant Strike - Weapon Damage - (bread & butter ability that generates procs/stacks to use other stuff)

Shadow Strike - Weapon Damage - (hard hitting positional attack only used with a proc…unless you're bad)

Spinning Strike - Weapon Damage - (Execute ability)

Saber Strike - Weapon Damage - (free attack for when low on Force)

Project - Kinetic Damage - (6s CD, used with stacked buffs)

Force Breach - Internal Damage - (~15s CD, used with stacked buffs)

Shadow Technique (procs) - Internal Damage - (small passive damage)

 

Note that most of these are weapon damage, which makes them mitigated by Armor, Defense, and Shields. Project bypasses Defense and Shields, but is still mitigated by Armor. Force Breach and Shadow Technique go unmitigated, but they are the smallest damage sources on a whole.

 

In a situation like this, tank stats are still highly valuable in a PvP setting as they drastically cut down incoming damage as a whole.

 

IMO, this is pretty close to an ideal damage profile in terms of balance. There's some capability to penetrate defensive stats, but only with a minority piece of the damage pie and anything close to spammable is fully mitigated.

 

The problem is with some of the other classes damage profiles…not necessarily the tank stats. The damage types on certain abilities (or the amount of damage they are capable of) my need to be re-evaluated a bit.

[Daex]

I'd like to say something on this matter. Until today (when I first noticed this topic) I was playing Juggernaut tank. My gear is almost full champion (tanking set) and specc is Immortal. I have been sturdy in every possible situation including but not limited to solo holding a point in Alderaan for a minute or so against 3 people, carrying the ball, etc.

 

I just respecced to Rage dps changing couple of gear pieces (but not all of them, still lot of gear is for tanking). I also replaced my shield generator with focus.

 

Have to say that everything said it this post doesn't feel correct. I'm extremely squishy right now. I deals tons more damage even in half tanking gear which feels allright. I don't see this whole point you guys are trying to explain here because in this specc/gear when I charge into 3 people I simply die, in matter of seconds which is largely different in my tank specc/gear.

 

With this experience, I must say that including a shield chance for "spells" or whatever would surely create major imbalance and tanks being extremely overpowered.

 

Just my 5 cents.

[Gorstog]

Well, I guess we are standing on different grounds then, having played a tank myself I reckon that if I migitated dmg from the "caster" classes described above I would never die with guard on a healing sage sticked to me, that would break the game for sure. Tanks should be able to protect their healer but at the same time be vulnerable to die in a logical margin, making them immortal makes no sense in my eyes. The only thing that I could agree with the op is defense giving a bonus in elemental/kinetic resist chance and that's it.

 

That is not remotely true. You just attack the healer and force the tank to take unmitigated damage from guard.

 

I cannot fathom the amount of times I am running around hitting a healer trying to keep them locked down while the rest of my team is off doing 1 on 1 matches vs guys getting heals instead of piling on the healer. Healer classes go down pretty fast when real DPS hits them and if they are guarded you kill both the guarder an the healer.

 

The whole point of heavy defense spec'ed classes is to make them very difficult to kill to the point that people ignore them them on the battlefield 1 on 1 because it is to much hassle and takes to long. In the current iteration tanks melt like any other class due to a nearly complete lack of mitigation except, and especially jugs, have abysmal DPS when immortal spec'ed.

[Gorstog]

I'd like to say something on this matter. Until today (when I first noticed this topic) I was playing Juggernaut tank. My gear is almost full champion (tanking set) and specc is Immortal. I have been sturdy in every possible situation including but not limited to solo holding a point in Alderaan for a minute or so against 3 people, carrying the ball, etc.

 

I just respecced to Rage dps changing couple of gear pieces (but not all of them, still lot of gear is for tanking). I also replaced my shield generator with focus.

 

Have to say that everything said it this post doesn't feel correct. I'm extremely squishy right now. I deals tons more damage even in half tanking gear which feels allright. I don't see this whole point you guys are trying to explain here because in this specc/gear when I charge into 3 people I simply die, in matter of seconds which is largely different in my tank specc/gear.

 

With this experience, I must say that including a shield chance for "spells" or whatever would surely create major imbalance and tanks being extremely overpowered.

 

Just my 5 cents.

 

The other day I had a game where as an Immortal specced jug I was top DPS and had the most kills. I had a pocket healer and did not die one time. There was a point where we were defending a door vs 6 players with just me and the healer no problems.

 

Then the next game we stopped played against sub 50's and non-dps classes. I would jump out the spawn in hutt ball, make it half way up the ramp and have an operative pop out of stealth and send me back to spawn in about 10 seconds.

 

Just because you have done a couple matches and happened to jump into the middle of terrible players or non-dps players does not give your post any merit. I watch my poorly geared brother playing a marauder with 5 guys pounding on him walk the ball through the fire, down the ramp, and across the line all the time. The whole point of this post is the fact that pretty much only "White" damage is mitigated and most classes hardly ever use "white damage". The only classes we effectively mitigate are going to be "rage" based classes which mainly use white damage to generate rage.

[VoidSpectre]

too many classes bypass shields, it's that simple

[Tolfast]

Still no dev response, is this WAI Bioware?

[thekrazo]

 

As a fully geared tank in pvp i have 17,000 health. Quite a bit. Envii can, and HAS, de-stealthed on me and punches through maybe 2/3's of my health within the first or second 4s stun used. If I break the first the second one is always at the ready because good players are good.

 

I'm sure your information about mitigation is valid here, but I hate to see misinformation disseminated along with truth.

 

The knockdown on Shoot first gives you a full resolve bar. There is no way he stuns you again if you break it. You have 15s from when it starts til he can stun you.

 

The only way this would be valid is if he specced out of the knockdown on shoot first and opened then dirty kicked (stunned) you then followed up with a flash bang. Our stun does not quite give you a full resolve bar, so you can be cced back to back.

 

But he doesn't spec like that.

 

Also, our "sap" gives a full bar as well. So no one is getting sapped then knocked down.

 

Re-reading the wording, you may know that, but it's a common misconception that I think contributes to the nonsense.

 

Also, he's definitely using armor pen, but it's not just the armor pen and big crits that are doing the damage. A smart scoundrel vs. a tank will flechette round on the shoot first, vital shot, and then try to get a flechette round off back blast as soon as possible after 6 seconds. Sometimes that means not using back blast during the knockdown.

 

That may not make a ton of sense if you're not familiar with a scoundrel but flechette round applies a really nasty internal damage dot over 6 seconds and vital shot is also an internal damage dot. Flechette round has no cooldown. It's only limited by the cooldown on back blast (9s) and the steatlh requirement of shoot first.

 

Add into that the fact that crits on dots make each tick crit (not sure how they let that bug that's affected every mmo ever sneak in.) A lot of people think they're dying to big crits but I'd guess that 1v1 against a 17k hp tank, 30-40% of our damage actually comes from internal damage dots.

 

TBH I love flechette round more than shoot first. Flechette round + big crits is what makes the burst so big. If we have to get nerfed to satiate the rabid hordes, then I hope I keep flechette round as it is and lose damage on shoot first.

[CHRISGG]

(posted this in the other thread, too)

 

On the subject of tank mitigation in PvP… It depends what class and what abilities you are looking at.

 

As one example, here are the primary damage sources you would see fighting against a Infiltration spec Jedi Shadow:

 

Clairvoyant Strike - Weapon Damage - (bread & butter ability that generates procs/stacks to use other stuff)

Shadow Strike - Weapon Damage - (hard hitting positional attack only used with a proc…unless you're bad)

Spinning Strike - Weapon Damage - (Execute ability)

Saber Strike - Weapon Damage - (free attack for when low on Force)

Project - Kinetic Damage - (6s CD, used with stacked buffs)

Force Breach - Internal Damage - (~15s CD, used with stacked buffs)

Shadow Technique (procs) - Internal Damage - (small passive damage)

 

Note that most of these are weapon damage, which makes them mitigated by Armor, Defense, and Shields. Project bypasses Defense and Shields, but is still mitigated by Armor. Force Breach and Shadow Technique go unmitigated, but they are the smallest damage sources on a whole.

 

In a situation like this, tank stats are still highly valuable in a PvP setting as they drastically cut down incoming damage as a whole.

 

IMO, this is pretty close to an ideal damage profile in terms of balance. There's some capability to penetrate defensive stats, but only with a minority piece of the damage pie and anything close to spammable is fully mitigated.

 

The problem is with some of the other classes damage profiles…not necessarily the tank stats. The damage types on certain abilities (or the amount of damage they are capable of) my need to be re-evaluated a bit.

 

I really don't see a reason why *ALL* damage shouldn't be effected by shield chance.

 

Personally I really don't feel like tanks are hard to kill right now. They die way too easily to 2 players who know what they're doing who aren't dealing weapon damage, ESPECIALLY if you can land AoE's on their guard target as well. Sure, with CD's up they're really hard to kill, but you don't need to be tank spec to use CD's.

 

Shield working on everything would absolutely change this and I don't think it'd be over the top at all. Tanks would still be viable focus targets for when you really need to focus them (IE: Only tank+his guard target left alive), you'd just have to actually TRY to kill them rather than mindlessly mashing damage.

Edited January 10, 2012 by CHRISGG

[ericdjobs]

Step 1: Notice your shield doesn't proc for crap in PVP, despite having close to a 50% shield chance and 45% absorb.

 

Step 2: Come to forums to investigate

 

Step 3: Find this thread, and cry.

 

 

Please fix.

[Shredbull]

Perhaps shields aren't meant to proc by player abilities. Sorry but having a 50% absorb bubble up 24/7 would make juggs with pocket healers even more invincible.

 

Did you know with regular buffs up they ''migitate'' 50% of all caster damage? It is really a pain in the *** to kill a geared jugg as a sorcerer, impossible even.

 

And if they have a healer attached to them its just impossible.

 

Perhaps you die too fast because you expect to be able to run through acid, fire, and an 8 man group without dying, alone.

[Gertbeefrobe]

Perhaps shields aren't meant to proc by player abilities. Sorry but having a 50% absorb bubble up 24/7 would make juggs with pocket healers even more invincible.

 

Did you know with regular buffs up they ''migitate'' 50% of all caster damage? It is really a pain in the *** to kill a geared jugg as a sorcerer, impossible even.

 

And if they have a healer attached to them its just impossible.

 

Perhaps you die too fast because you expect to be able to run through acid, fire, and an 8 man group without dying, alone.

 

Then why attach the stats to pvp gear? Almost all the pvp tank gear has Absorb on it yet my shield only fires against 10-20% of the abilities used against me. Re-itemize our gear to provide stupid amounts of endurance or make shields work properly. Until then I am simply a slightly higher HP class with guard.

[VoidSpectre]

is it just me or is every1s argument: if they have a healer they are hard to kill

 

 

 

well no duh. any1 getting healed is hard to kill. tanks should be hard to kill always for sacrificing damage always, they are only hard to kill sometimes and that's mostly because of cooldowns or against a minority of abilities.

[Tolfast]

is it just me or is every1s argument: if they have a healer they are hard to kill

 

 

 

well no duh. any1 getting healed is hard to kill. tanks should be hard to kill always for sacrificing damage always, they are only hard to kill sometimes and that's mostly because of cooldowns or against a minority of abilities.

 

This ^^

[Gertbeefrobe]

/bump for front page. Having a spec defining ability (and therefore gear defining) be almost completely useless in PVP deserves an explanation.

[Gaff]

And here I thought it was just me being squishy as hell on my Tankassin. Now to see if anything is going to be done about it.

[dynamitepop]

It's the silence from the tank and pvp devs. That's even more upsetting than the total waste of stats that my "PVP" gear gives me. Perhaps take the absorption and defense stats and split them between endurance and expertise to make us real PVP tanks.

[Cromica]

Fix this now

[thanealpha]

I think we finally have our reason for why some Sents feel UP while others scream and insist that we're fine.

 

Watchman builds = dots and fire =200k-500k per warfront damage

Combat builds = weapon = 100k-250k per warfront damage

 

There it is.

 

My guess is this explains a LOT about PvP concerns across many classes and builds within those classes.

[Erseneos]

Pretty sure no one other than tanks know this problem. Even most tanks are arguing with me atm calling me an idiot and that the tanking stats work in pvp against all classes. Of course everyone who isnt a tank is backing them up. Really this is unacceptable with the shield no blocking 80% of what shot in my direction. Its so shocking that people assume im a big fat liar when i give them the facts. Edited January 10, 2012 by Erseneos

[NasherUK]

So defence is useles in pvp, yet one of the jugg pvp sets has lots of def on it? :/

 

There do seem to be a lot of stat/math problems in this game. They need to fix the stats or change the stats on pvp gear so useless ones are replaced.

Edited January 10, 2012 by NasherUK

[Erseneos]

So defence is useles in pvp, yet one of the jugg pvp sets has lots of def on it? :/

 

There do seem to be a lot of stat/math problems in this game. They need to fix the stats or change the stats on pvp gear so useless ones are replaced.

 

Any piece of gear that has +def on it, I just grab the assassin DPS equiv. As a assassin tank, the helm, shield gen, implants, and bracers are the only thing with +def on them, the rest is +absorb. Id hate to see the JUGG armor...id imagine its much worse

Edited January 10, 2012 by Erseneos

[vrgadin]

No. Shields are useless. Armor is a bit better. You're backwards.

 

Currently shields do not do anything to mitigate Kinetic, Elemental, Internal, or Energy damage. This is any ability that has a tooltip indicating one of these kinds of damage.

 

Any ability listed as such bypasses shields entirely. The only thing shields do help against is anything listed as "Weapon damage."

 

I have tested thoroughly with an Operative friend. His only attacks which my shield works against are Carbine Burst, Overload Shot, and his basic no energy cost rifle shots.

 

Everything else, all of the nasty "melee" attacks that melt tanks so fast, are entirely unmitigated by shields as they are classified as Kinetic Damage.

 

The only BH attacks mitigated by shields are Rapid Shots, Unload, and Rail Shot (and their mirrors).

 

Sorcs entirely bypass shielding.

 

The only thing which is reliably affected by shielding is Saber attacks from Assassins, Juggernauts, and Marauders and the Sniper class attacks. These classes have a lot more reliance on Weapon Damage based skills and are the only classes significantly affected by shielding in PvP. Everyone else has practically a free pass around your mitigation.

 

This. Is. Asinine.

 

It seems like Defense only works on Weapon Damage based attacks as well. I know my Rail Shot can be dodged (Ranged Weapon Damage attack) but I can't remember the last time someone avoided a Rocket Punch (Melee Kinetic Damage) or Flame Burst (Ranged Elemental Damage).

 

Edit: Like triple editing here making sure I've got everything straight. I keep referencing abilities on different characters, etc.

 

totally disagree. when i use my champ relic that boosts shield significantly, i feel a huge boost to survivability. my second champ relic boosts defense, when i pop this it is noticeably less of an effect.

[Zehf]

The third part is a list of glitches and exploits and how to do them.

 

**Skips to Part Three**