The Expertise stat has to go...

[shaidarlol]

There is no misconception at all.

 

PvP:

Right now: 5 shots to kill someone if both are wearing noob gear

3 Months Later: new person to pvp in noob gear vs person who has pvped for 3 month and is wearing expertise 6-7 shots to kill.

Result: PvP Got harder

 

PvE:

Right now: noob gear 5 shots to kill a mob in HM flash point

3 Months Later: noob gear, still 5 shots to kill the same mob.

Result: PvE is the same

 

you would be right if pvp meant only killing ppl, fortunately in swtor pvp, all 3 warzones are objective based and not kill based so no pvp doesn't get harder.

 

even if you lose a warzone you still get some valor/commendation. so the progression is linear. and like i said it gets easier as you progress. guess what happens when you lose in pve you get nothing.

 

i can even break it down further, in pve you have to find 3 other ppl willing to do the hm flashpoint, what if you can't find the ppl? in pvp you just queue.

 

or you manage to actually find the ppl to do hm flashpoint, but nothing drops for you. now do you see?

Edited January 25, 2012 by shaidarlol

[StealthStalker]

this is just gear progression, if you look at the pve gear from tionese -> columi -> rakata or centurion -> champion -> battlemaster you'll notice the stats are basically just single digit increases. i don't see how this is relevant.

 

Gear inflation isn't created from the start, do you really understand the concept? Of course there's not a large difference in gear right now, the game just began.

 

A year from now, two, once expansions and further PvE content comes in gear will inflate, to make the PvE more challenging. That's why the PvP stat exists at all. No?

 

so if you're on the same tier pvp wise you can't do the same tier in pve unless you've done the pve before? i don't see the point in this other than just doing the previous pve content with pvp gear then proceeding on.

 

i don't see how this system is better than expertise system except they are balancing it from a pvp standpoint 1st then to pve. and it's just using a gated system for pve. it doesn't really stop pvp geared ppl to pveing other than it forces you to do a certain amount of content.

 

I'm... not sure what the problem is. They still did that content, regardless of the gear they used to start with. At the very beginning you can use whatever you want, the very early PvP and PvE gear is equivalent and Wards aren't a factor.

 

The goal of the gear system currently in place is to keep PvP gear and PvE gear competitive in PvP. It also allows progression in PvE content to continue because the Expertise stat does nothing for PvE, thus you have to do previous PvE content to continue.

 

The Ward system does this as well, but without causing PvP gear to eclipse people who are brand new to PvP'ing... while also rewarding those who have been PvP'ing for some time. With minor stat boosts, and potentially more alluring Set Bonuses.

 

That last statement is the most is most important. Expertise gear currently balances itself against Raid Gear in general, and keeps things competitive on that front. The problem is it also creates an enormous gap between those without Raid gear OR PvP gear, fresh new faces to the PvP scene.

 

PvP should not be a battle of gear, it should be a battle of skill. The Ward system promotes skillful play by keeping the playing field equal, regardless of if you PvE or PvP.

 

again the problem is forcing a player to do something that maybe said person doesn't want to do.

 

Wait, what? That's the exact opposite of what this does. At what point are you forced to do anything with the Ward system?

 

You can PvP if you like to PvP, and even as a fresh face on the scene you aren't at that big of a disadvantage gear wise. Not vs PvP gear, or vs PvE gear.

 

If you like to PvE, you have to progress... you have to do the content, and get the ward, and continue.

 

In either of those scenarios, how is one or the other being forced on you?

 

Let me restate what I said previously:

 

The Ward system does this as well, but without causing PvP gear to eclipse people who are brand new to PvP'ing... while also rewarding those who have been PvP'ing for some time. With minor stat boosts, and potentially more alluring Set Bonuses.

 

If I want to PvP... I'll PvP, if I want to PvE, I have to progress. What's the problem? I'm not forced to do anything. I do everything by choice. The current gear system is the main culprit here, forcing you to get Expertise gear. No?

 

In the end, can we all just agree that those who want the expertise stat just want an inherent advantage because they feel like they've put the time in and deserve it?

 

Just like those who want it taken away without something else put in place, want an advantage in PvP because they obviously have better gear from PvE?

 

Just so we're clear on where I stand: I don't like expertise, but I recognize the fact that PvE raid gear is better and without some system in place to balance the field it would be an issue.

 

My goal is to keep PvP competitive and based on skill, knowledge, or teamwork. I don't want it based purely on time spent PvP'ing OR PvE'ing. I don't want someone to defeat someone else just because of the items they're wearing.

 

I also support the inclusion of Realm Abilities. If you're not familiar with that system, it's a PvP based talent tree. The higher your renown rank, the more points you have to spend in that tree.

 

That tree can have anything from minor stat boosts, to active abilities. (eg: A second CC break, or something).

 

This gives another incentive to get a higher PvP rank, and put time in... but if introduced and balanced correctly, is not an issue.

Edited January 25, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Shardsy]

you would be right if pvp meant only killing ppl, fortunately in swtor pvp, all 3 warzones are objective based and not kill based so no pvp doesn't get harder.

 

even if you lose a warzone you still get some valor/commendation. so the progression is linear. and like i said it gets easier as you progress. guess what happens when you lose in pve you get nothing.

 

i can even break it down further, in pve you have to find 3 other ppl willing to do the hm flashpoint, what if you can't find the ppl? in pvp you just queue.

 

or you manage to actually find the ppl to do hm flashpoint, but nothing drops for you. now do you see?

 

No, because those same complaints about pve vs pvp exist today. The proliferation of expertise is timed based though.

 

The entry barrier to be successful at pvp will increase as time goes forward. The entry barrier for pve will remain the same.

 

And while yes, pvp is objective based, as time progresses those objectives will be harder for new players to accomplish because they will fighting against expertised geared players compared today where most people are on fairly equal footing.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Shardsy

[Emucruxes]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=230862

 

Expertise, fixed. Check it out.

[StealthStalker]

Everquest 2 has toughness (PVP stat)

Rift has valor (PVP stat)

Age of Conan has invulnerability (PVP stat)

WoW has resilience (PVP stat)

TOR has Expertise (PVP stat)

 

Unless the mmo is based entirely around PVP then there is a PVP stat to seperate that gear from the PVE gear.

 

DAOC, Warhammer. I didn't play Aion long enough to know for sure, but did it have a PvP stat?

 

DAOC and Warhammer were not based purely on PvP. Warhammer unfortunately didn't have a very expansive PvE following, but it did have PvE.

 

WAR's Tomb of the Vulture Lord was a very challenging dungeon, and even though it was only 6 people I'd consider it raid difficulty. I mean, SWTOR has 8-man raids. At what point do we not call it a raid?

 

Prior to their end-game changes, there was a 24-man PvE dungeon that you opened when you captured the enemy's city.

 

That said, WAR had the Ward system, which I've explained in detail on the previous page, and in a lengthy thread above.

 

DAOC on the other hand was very heavily PvE based.

Edited January 25, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Zombifikation]

Nobody wanting to do an instance is a problem that's been around in all mmos, that's what guilds help take care of. If nobody wanted to pvp and you did you'd run into the same problems, games ending bc there werent enough people. Finding groups isn't enough of a hardship to justify the argument.

 

They want to keep the gear separate. I quit wow for a number of reasons, but the primary reason was that you either had to have an awesome arena team or pve gear to compete in PvP. I got wotlk late, and all my friends had geared up already and I was having trouble getting on teams or into raids bc I was a fresh 80. So...they took a dump on casual players at the time...it got changed back eventually, but I was irritated enough not to resub (that and other rl reasons). I have a feeling bio doesn't want that to happen here. They don't want you to have to pve in order to compete in PvP and then get the PvP gear later.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Zombifikation

[Hizoka]

Why have you still got noob gear after 3months of PVE ? The gear isnt that hard to get.

 

there is no skill in getting PvP gear its luck in the bags

 

 

if the gear was based on skill it would actually mean something but it doesn't because some baddie can get lucky and instantly he thinks hes great, because his gear covers his lack of skill

[shaidarlol]

Gear inflation isn't created from the start, do you really understand the concept? Of course there's not a large difference in gear right now, the game just began.

 

A year from now, two, once expansions and further PvE content comes in gear will inflate, to make the PvE more challenging. That's why the PvP stat exists at all. No?

 

that's the point of relevance, i can only go by what's present. how can you be so sure BW will make gear in a way that inflation occurs so badly? i mean how does pvp gear even come out exactly? by design they have to match it up with pve progression. it's not some arbitrary process.

 

PvP should not be a battle of gear, it should be a battle of skill. The Ward system promotes skillful play by keeping the playing field equal, regardless of if you PvE or PvP.

 

while i couldn't agree with you more, the fact of the matter is this is a MMO. while pvp should be skill only, it wont get there until everyone has the same gear. i understand that you want an even playing field right from the start, but then it would be a completely different game like guild wars was. this is just pve progression in pvp form.

 

the entire ward system imo is based on if you want to pvp great you can just pvp and if the pvers want to pvp great equal grounds.

 

but if i want to mainly pvp and do some pve the system is completely backwards isn't it? it favors pve. if you pved you are doing exactly what you want to do and just jump into pvp without any problems right? let's say a new pve tier came out and a new pvp tier came out. a new player can easily just jump in the new pvp gear correct? while skipping the 1st pvp tier? but it doesn't work in pve right? if you pvp and want to do current content pve you can't you have to start from the beginning. that is the issue.

 

here is another way of saying this, in the ward system, it's just better to pve because then you can do both pve and pvp, however if you want to just pvp then maybe get some pve done you are screwed.

[Shardsy]

Why have you still got noob gear after 3months of PVE ? The gear isnt that hard to get.

 

Because you just bought the game or leveled a new character? Derp?

[Vrumpt]

Yeah i've been saying this since launch and i agree with the OP. The expertise stat doesn't really accomplish anything, and only has detrimental effects for anybody else trying to PvP.

 

If you removed the PvP stat then everybody would be on the same playing field right from the start, rather than waiting for everybody to gear up to battlemaster before they get evenly matched. Regular stats on gear can still give an edge over the people who are in greens, and this would allow people to matched up with lower levels again without being godlike in damage mitigation.

 

People would still strive for PvP gear as long as it looks unique and ****** and had a stat progression similar to PvE gear. Looks is something people always strive to get in MMOs, and keeping PvP gear looking unique even after expertise is removed ensures people are going to continue to PvP to acquire it. This also lets people know who PvPs a lot and who doesn't. There aren't any negative effects from this.

 

So really in the end all expertise does is make it impossible for anybody without PvP gear to have a fair chance in PVP, which basically just rewards people who got to 50 earliest. The inflation in damage output and mitigation from expertise hurts the PvP game more than it helps the player. Removing this stat will only have beneficial effects on the community.

[Kyrinic]

Yeah i've been saying this since launch and i agree with the OP. The expertise stat doesn't really accomplish anything, and only has detrimental effects for anybody else trying to PvP.

 

If you removed the PvP stat then everybody would be on the same playing field right from the start, rather than waiting for everybody to gear up to battlemaster before they get evenly matched. Regular stats on gear can still give an edge over the people who are in greens, and this would allow people to matched up with lower levels again without being godlike in damage mitigation.

 

People would still strive for PvP gear as long as it looks unique and ****** and had a stat progression similar to PvE gear. Looks is something people always strive to get in MMOs, and keeping PvP gear looking unique even after expertise is removed ensures people are going to continue to PvP to acquire it. This also lets people know who PvPs a lot and who doesn't. There aren't any negative effects from this.

 

So really in the end all expertise does is make it impossible for anybody without PvP gear to have a fair chance in PVP, which basically just rewards people who got to 50 earliest. The inflation in damage output and mitigation from expertise hurts the PvP game more than it helps the player. Removing this stat will only have beneficial effects on the community.

 

PVP to get PVP gear to help in PVP

 

PVE to get PVE gear to help in PVE.

 

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

[Emtom]

^^^^^ exactly

[Avindra]

Because you just bought the game or leveled a new character? Derp?

 

You claimed that after 3months of HM FPs that you would still have noob gear.

[KOTOR-LOVER]

Ok tell me some gear that you need to win to get?

 

There is none therefore everyone can obtain the gear with effort so still what you are saying is irrelevant

 

But that's not fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Who finds that fun!?!?! It's just like their setting up a barrier before everyone can be equal! And a very high barrier that takes an insanely long amount of time spent playing to get over it! Who actually thinks it's more fun to grind than it is to actually be able to compete? No one? You grind to get the best gear to make it harder for others to grind and get on equal level. It's like you're picking on the little guy. Bioware, in a snese, and every other MMO should make everyone the same size (not necessarily the SAME, but at least the same stats)!

[StealthStalker]

here is another way of saying this, in the ward system, it's just better to pve because then you can do both pve and pvp, however if you want to just pvp then maybe get some pve done you are screwed.

 

I'm glad we're getting on the same page, and you are correct. Here's the thing, though. PvP is vs other People. Generally those of us who enjoy it, enjoy the thrill and excitement that brings us.

 

With the Ward system, from the start we can hop in and play against other people in a competitive and challenging scene, regardless of what else those other people do in game.

 

For the PvE scene, you have to progress. That's it. That's how it would be with the Ward system, and that's how it is right now without it. The challenge comes from defeating content, getting it on farm, and then moving to the next. Fighting your way through that content is part of the fun.

 

What I'm trying to say is, at least with the Ward system we could potentially have more people competitively PvP'ing than we do right now. Because anyone can hop in, and enjoy the PvP at a competitive level. That's not a bad thing in my opinion.

 

PvP'ers can still have an advantage since the PvP gear will be slightly more PvP-centric. It just isn't the advantage the expertise is currently.

 

Realm Abilities can also add a nice incentive, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Edited January 25, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Kyrinic]

You do not have to finish with the most kills in a warzone to get champion bags. You can get them via team wins or ilum quests.

 

/discussion.

 

There is nothing preventing a new 50 from getting the gear. This is nothing but PVE carebears wanting to roll people in PVP.

[Holyhood]

so many carebear PvErs...

[shaidarlol]

this is getting so tiresome, every fresh 50 thinks without expertise pvp would be sooo even. WRONG nerds, raid geared players will still exist and they will be around to eat you alive.

[StealthStalker]

this is getting so tiresome, every fresh 50 thinks without expertise pvp would be sooo even. WRONG nerds, raid geared players will still exist and they will be around to eat you alive.

 

Not with Wards! Or something...

Edited January 25, 2012 by StealthStalker

[KOTOR-LOVER]

this is getting so tiresome, every fresh 50 thinks without expertise pvp would be sooo even. WRONG nerds, raid geared players will still exist and they will be around to eat you alive.

 

That's why everyone should be bolstered to equal EVERYTHING in warzones. Gear shouldn't help stats in PvP.

[KOTOR-LOVER]

Yeah I said it....^

You can vote on your opinion here btw

Edited January 25, 2012 by KOTOR-LOVER

[shaidarlol]

I'm glad we're getting on the same page, and you are correct. Here's the thing, though. PvP is vs other People. Generally those of us who enjoy it, enjoy the thrill and excitement that brings us.

 

With the Ward system, from the start we can hop in and play against other people in a competitive and challenging scene, regardless of what else those other people do in game.

 

For the PvE scene, you have to progress. That's it. That's how it would be with the Ward system, and that's how it is right now without it. The challenge comes from defeating content, getting it on farm, and then moving to the next. Fighting your way through that content is part of the fun.

 

What I'm trying to say is, at least with the Ward system we could potentially have more people competitively PvP'ing than we do right now. Because anyone can hop in, and enjoy the PvP at a competitive level. That's not a bad thing in my opinion.

 

PvP'ers can still have an advantage since the PvP gear will be slightly more PvP-centric. It just isn't the advantage the expertise is currently.

 

Realm Abilities can also add a nice incentive, as I mentioned in my previous post.

 

that's not the same page man, in the ward system what is the incentive to just purely pvp? there is none, it's just better to pve...if you only pvped you'd just limit yourself from part of the game for absolutely no reason at all.

 

new player: hmm if i pved i can do both pvp and pve, but if i only pvp then i can only really just pvp....because if i wanted to pve later on i'd have to start from the beginning anyways.

[KOTOR-LOVER]

that's not the same page man, in the ward system what is the incentive to just purely pvp? there is none, it's just better to pve...if you only pvped you'd just limit yourself from part of the game for absolutely no reason at all.

 

new player: hmm if i pved i can do both pvp and pve, but if i only pvp then i can only really just pvp....because if i wanted to pve later on i'd have to start from the beginning anyways.

 

Who says you can't do both? What are you talking about? Of course you can start from the beginning in PvE... They are 2 completely DIFFERENT aspects of the game and rewards from one really should not help you with the rewards for the other. E.g. Look at FPS games

[ztee]

Yeah i've been saying this since launch and i agree with the OP. The expertise stat doesn't really accomplish anything, and only has detrimental effects for anybody else trying to PvP.

 

If you removed the PvP stat then everybody would be on the same playing field right from the start, rather than waiting for everybody to gear up to battlemaster before they get evenly matched. Regular stats on gear can still give an edge over the people who are in greens, and this would allow people to matched up with lower levels again without being godlike in damage mitigation.

 

People would still strive for PvP gear as long as it looks unique and ****** and had a stat progression similar to PvE gear. Looks is something people always strive to get in MMOs, and keeping PvP gear looking unique even after expertise is removed ensures people are going to continue to PvP to acquire it. This also lets people know who PvPs a lot and who doesn't. There aren't any negative effects from this.

 

So really in the end all expertise does is make it impossible for anybody without PvP gear to have a fair chance in PVP, which basically just rewards people who got to 50 earliest. The inflation in damage output and mitigation from expertise hurts the PvP game more than it helps the player. Removing this stat will only have beneficial effects on the community.

 

So Pretend you just dinged 50 and you are doing some PVP on what you refer to as equal playing terms. I happen to rock up in Full Rakata and utterly destroy you ...

 

What do you call that? Its exactly the same thing!!!!

 

PVP for PVP Gear

PVE for PVE Gear

 

There is always going to be a different rate of gear progression for different people. Even without Expertise .... Therefore, there is always going to be people that are outgeared and getting destroyed ...

[Hizoka]

That's why everyone should be bolstered to equal EVERYTHING in warzones. Gear shouldn't help stats in PvP.

 

this exactly. If you were actually good at PvP you wouldn't need the PK stat. The little kids want the PK stat so they can actually feel like they are good because they got lucky and got the gear, it took no skill on their part to EARN it they just got lucky in a bag

 

 

 

 

If you really wanted good pvP you would want everything equal and SKILL to be what wins, however 95% of PvP are bad at the game, thats why they want the ability to just sit in a warzone and get free loot, its because they can't get raid loot. If everything was actually equal in PvP the little kids wouldn't play because the skilled players would win not the people who just got lucky with loot bags.